Barbie Board?

[SS Cressa]

I'm not telling anyone what terms to use or not to use. Just saying that there can be unintended ramifications for our word choices and it can be prudent to take those into account when we want to educate.

 

WOW that is really well put together. My thoughts I just couldn't figure out how to put them in writing. Not really good at explaining myself!

[Debbie Meier]

Too be honest I think the term barbie border or barbie collie is a cute term for endearment. I was more offended when an agility person came up to me and told me my dog reminded her of her own border collies since Cressa "look?" like a coyote (all legs, no coat, short back). LOL Her dogs stunk at agility while Cressa is smooth, fast, and under control. I wink and smile and said "She too small to be a coyote. She's an little fox!"

 

Kinda wonder how many different things are meant when a person refers to a particular dog as a "Coyote Collie", when I mentioned it to Wayne his first thought was that is was referring to the body condition and hair coat (basically ungroomed) that the owner chose to present their dog in, nothing to do with breeding, body style or way of moving.

 

I could see it being used as a term to describe a method of movement all the way to being used while looking down ones nose. I guess what is frustrating is when the person using the term leaves it open ended making the assumption that everyone hearing them is on board, then it gets repeated and as time goes on it can having many meanings, from a term of endearment all the way to a way of offending people in a backhanded fashion.

 

I myself have used Coyote in describing a dog, but I followed it with "Stealth like, moving like a shadow, floating along", to clarify which trait of the coyote I was comparing the dog to. Now you also have the flea bitten, shaggy, mangy coyote. Which is most commonly thought of when a person visuallizes a Coyote? Guess it depends on your level of appreciation for the species.

 

What I don't see, is a border collie moving like a coyote, atleast not like the coyotes I've seen around here. Some of my cattle dogs move and carry themselves more like the coyotes, and their hair coat/color is simular too, especially when they are in mid blow.

 

The Coyote Collie deal is an interesting one, ...what really do they mean by Coyote Collie? And I don't mean what they say they mean when confronted, certainly can be different.

 

Deb

[herdcentral]

What I don't see, is a border collie moving like a coyote, atleast not like the coyotes I've seen around here. Some of my cattle dogs move and carry themselves more like the coyotes, and their hair coat/color is simular too, especially when they are in mid blow.

Deb

 

Yes my young red lean ACD when we are out in the paddocks looks just like her ancestral origins the dingo. When I watch her moving through the scrub there is something almost feral about the way she moves and the intense expression on her face and in those amber eyes and the set of her ears.

 

Back to the term Barbie. I live in the heartland of Barbies (Australia). The one problem I would see is that they are still highly intelligent dogs that always seem to be represented in spades among the top obedience and agility dogs.

 

My "Barbie" is a highly intelligent, if sometimes rather independent dog, but I look into her eyes and see some of the things she does and understands and I know that little brain is very very switched on. Barbie in her case may describe her looks but definitely not her brain. Her work ethic is not in the same clas as a working Border collie, but intelligent defintely very! She is a problem solver for sure.

[geonni banner]

Kristine,

I think the folks who will tune you out because of a word aren't going to listen much better if you try a different word. The second they perceive that you are anti whatever it is they think is important, you're not likely to get through to them in a meaningful way anyway.

 

FWIW, on an individual basis I do try to reason with folks and show them the differences, etc., in a non-confrontational way, but nothing gets my back up more than folks coming along and being offended largely just so they can troll (the individuals being insulted on this thread have been here quite long enough to know better, and have gotten "offended" repeatedly because they *can* and simply for the sake of argument) or others who feel an overwhelming need to trot out the old chestnut about "catching more flies with honey."

 

In fact, I think that for most of this thread I tried to be reasonable and just point out errors in fact or supposition. I don't care about the term Barbie collie any more than I care about the idea that red dogs aren't good workers or sheep won't respect a mostly white dog. My new puppy may well have a big coat and a blcoky head and if someone eventually refers to him as a Barbie collie, I don't really care, though I may or may not point out that he's working bred. In fact, I've made jokes about what the heck I'm doing with a dog who is rough coated and might not have prick ears. Surely all the folks who own rough-coated, non-prick-eared dogs and who've read *those* comments haven't gotten upset/offended because my stated preference is for smooth coats and prick ears!

 

We're (mostly) adults here and if we can't be plainspoken about the things we're passionate about, then I guess perhaps we're better off not speaking at all. And then this forum would lose a lot of valuable experience and insight. And as Eileen noted above, we could all spend our time trying to make each other feel good, but in my experience, being a bit uncomfortable never got in the way of my learning something new and in fact might even have spurred me on. I don't think I'm some huge exception to the rule.

 

Take the bad with the good, folks, in the end nothing anyone says here can truly affect you personally.

 

Posted this in the wrong thread… (sorry)

 

One more thought from a “newbie.”

I’ve been keeping track of this thread because I am new – read inexperienced – with this breed and I made one post earlier. (on page 4 of the thread) Since then I’ve learned some things about BCs and BC people. I did read the “read this first” statement and found it completely sensible. (I actually do take exception to one statement – I don’t think it’s OK to breed any domestic animal strictly for appearance. It always leads to problems.)

The language in this thread still seems pretty rank sometimes, but I am a bit closer to understanding why it is so provoking to some BC folk to see what’s going on in the AKC and the dogs registered by them, especially those being bred for the breed ring.

Interestingly, the Border Collie that I have always had in my mind as “typical” for the breed has much more in common with the dogs I see pictures of in these boards. (That picture, by the way is usually a wide-angle shot, and almost always has livestock in it.)

In the last few days I looked at some dogs being called Border Collies – Clan Abby dogs and others – to try and see if I could discover something about how and where my own dog, a rescue, originated. She has a number of missing premolars – presumably from birth. Anyway, I was quite surprised at how different those dogs looked from that internal picture that I’ve been carrying around. I was very interested in my own reaction too. It wasn’t the heavy coat or the boxy shape of so many of them that I found dismaying, although the exaggerated stop, broad head and heavy bone were rather off-putting. No, it was the apparent lack of animation – the complacent expression that jarred with me. Where was the fire and intensity that I associate with this breed? Ok, so maybe these dogs shouldn’t be called Border Collies.

I re-read my earlier post, mentioned above, and felt a little, er, sheepish. Ok, so I didn’t get it. Now I do – a little better. And although I still have a little trouble with the term “Barbie Collie,” I have come up with a new name for the AKC’s version (perversion?) of the Border Collie. How about the “American Ribbon Retriever?”

 

Quote from “ejano” in response to the above:

I really reluctantly this discussion but I have to point out that my Robin has " exaggerated stop, a broad head [sort of ] and heavy bone" and he is from very strong herding lines -- his paternal grandfather was in fact a national herding champion (and had a strong stop) and his maternal grandmother was a Scottish import. Robin is a handsome red dog with a beautiful rough medium length coat. His eyes are greenish gold. His litter mate Brodie, is a piebald with a medium silky coat, lighter boned and whippet thin but he does have a rather abrupt stop as well. They both have bigger muzzles than some might like to see on a Border Collie. These dogs were bred for their potential herding ability, which is a good thing because their color and conformation are all over the map.

 

I had a rescue dog out of the pet lines - he was oversized - almost as big as the Lassie Collies , big boned, broad head, and wouldn't have known a sheep if it bit him (we tried him out). He'd been with elderly owners who walked him and gave him beautiful manners but weren't very active with him. The only thing he chased with any zeal was, sadly, cars. He had the nature of a gentle giant and was smart as a whip when it came to language. His markings and rough coat were a beautiful representation of the "tuxedo" pattern most commonly associated with Border Collies. But when I turned him loose in the back field and he discovered he could run, what a beautiful sight he was! He's buried on the edge of that field and his spirit runs freely over the green grass.

 

Our other rescue, Ladybug is more in line with the appearance of a working dog - smaller, faster, an obvious tuck, and with the prey drive of a grizzly bear. I suspect she was trained for flyball. She would indeed perform on sheep if we asked, but lacking papers and a documented history, and appropriate herding training, she's nothing more than a very pretty lady who loves to chase down a ball and hunt mice in the field. If one adopts a rescue, make sure its spayed/neutered (Ladybug wasn't, though her paperwork said she was - the scar was in fact from a C-section) and wait for it to settle down and then it will show you what it likes best to do.

 

It seems to me that the biggest problem is that folks pick up pups from herding lines that weren't selected for livestock work, then don't have them neutered but rather breed them to perhaps an inferior performer or one whose soundness has not been tested - or worse, breed them for unusual markings and colors and then market them to the pet or show world, whose owners can't figure out why these dogs are going wild and dump them.

 

 

I believe in retaining the Border Collie as a true working dog with a solid, healthy conformation that can vary, so its best to look at the registration papers before judging the dog by appearance. Separate registries are the best solution because the herding function is the purpose of the Border Collie's existence. But why not simply refer to the AKC lines as AKC Border Collies and be done with "barbie" "ribbon" etc? This "barbie" name upsets me because it sounds like it belongs in the category of racial slurs applied to humans.

[/b]

My response:

Ok, first I want to say that I wasn't trying to say that big-boned or coaty dogs were a bad thing, just that they are not what comes to mind to me when I think "Border Collie." Breeding for head properties has made a wreck of the Rough Collie, and I wouldn't want to see it become a priority in the BC. Same for coat characteristics. Clearly, overall soundness and herding ability must be priorities.

Nor would I ever condemn an individual dog for not having my favorite look or behavioral characteristics. What I meant to say was that like many dogs bred for the breed ring, I see that "nobody home" look in the eyes of many (not all) of the BCs I've looked at from AKC conformation lines.

I don't know much about how the conformation BC got started. Perhaps there was a line of working stock dogs with heavy coats, specific head characteristics and the classic tuxedo coloring that were selected to "found" a conformation line. If so it's an easy step to select for those physical characteristics without any attempt to retain herding ability and working temperament. Thus down the road to the "Barbie."

After following the "Barbie Boards" thread, I was intrigued, and yes, a little put off by the venom in some of the posts. But after reading, looking and thinking, I began to see what was at stake for these people and to understand their passion and anger about the subject. I signed up with the BC Boards to learn about BCs. And boy! Talk about a crash-course!

It's great. I'm well rewarded for the time spent here.

Oh, and as for the "American Ribbon Retriever" comment - it was an attempt at levity... Just a joke.

As for my own BC. She will probably never see a sheep. I am disabled and her work is to help me do what I need to do. She's happy, and will never be bred - I got her spayed. But she's the "bestest dog that ever was" to me. And that's as it should be, don'cha think?

 

J.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Jeez, my Danny would then I guess, have to be called a Barbie Collie, because his tail hair is so long, it looks like it has extensions....

 

I guess you just missed reading the second half of my post?

[Dixie_Girl]

Barbie is a doll that no matter what "career" she may be packaged to do, she can. Her body is exactly the same, regardless of the "race" of Barbie. She is mass produced to look a certain way. No one would ever confuse a dollar store doll with a Barbie. She goes through quality control to make sure all of her particulars are there. If they don't have the up to standard quality, they are dumped.

 

In ACK, it is the same, regardless of breed. They are never judged because of what they are bred to do, just what they are bred to look like. With the border collie, they "allow" broken teeth and scars "if it is because ot the work they do". I imagine this was thrown in in the beginning to get the working border collies on the books. So far, I have never seen a border collie in the show ring with either. We all know that the majority, and in some cases, all, of the breeds ACK has taken on have long ago lost any semblence of being capable of doing what they were originally bred for. But the poodle is still intellegent, and could possibly be trained to retrieve water fowl. A bull dog however would have a really hard time dealing with a drop calf!

 

The thing is, most breeds needed training to learn to do what they were bred for. The border collie was bred to "know" what to do. The training of a border collie on stock is not teaching it what to do, but when and where YOU want certain things done. That is really why if they are not bred properly this is something that is so easily lost. It's not an ablility to learn a certain thing, but to have the instincts to do it from genetics. A dog bred many generations to the show ring, may still be fast, agile, and intelligent, but it is rare to also have any stock sense.

 

 

Barbie Collie, whether you cringe or cheer at the name, describes the show dogs perfectly. They look like border collies, they are intelligent like border collies, but they have to be trained to do at 1 1/2 to 2 years old, what a well bred 6 month old pup will do on instinct.

[Ooky]

What I don't see, is a border collie moving like a coyote, atleast not like the coyotes I've seen around here. Some of my cattle dogs move and carry themselves more like the coyotes, and their hair coat/color is simular too, especially when they are in mid blow.

 

The Coyote Collie deal is an interesting one, ...what really do they mean by Coyote Collie? And I don't mean what they say they mean when confronted, certainly can be different.

 

This post interested me and I asked some of my friends who are wildlife biologists what exact traits made my dog reminiscent of a coyote. Again, they meant it as a compliment of the highest order, and they also said that he is like a coyote *compared* to other dogs they've known.

 

Appearance:

 

1. very long, thin muzzle, placement of the teeth

2. propensity to hang out his tongue in a "predator-type" way

3. head carried low slung between the shoulders, especially when giving "eye". This stance is a big one and I do think it's fairly coyoteish, at least from the coyotes I've observed

4. exceedingly thin body that is not as extreme in morphology as a sighthound type, but different than most other dogs. (I don't think he's exceedingly thin, actually, he's perfect weight but people are used to fat dogs)

 

Movement:

 

5. agility and quickness combined with an "economy of movement" - almost cat-like reflexes

6. a ground-eating, effortless-looking trot

 

Behavior:

 

7. high prey drive (in their eyes and I'm guessing again in comparison to "normal" dogs) expressed towards balls etc.

8. a "wild-type" intelligence, awareness, and intensity very evident in his expression and actions. By wild-type I mean it the way geneticists do, like how agouti is the wild-type color. Compared to other dogs, and even though he is well-behaved, he does not act domesticated (as in complacent or dumbed down). They said this was really the major aspect - that he is all THERE and completely aware of his surroundings, which is more like a wild animal than a domesticated one.

9. Retention of some of the canine behaviors lost in other domesticated dogs, like his submissive "grin" and front teeth showing.

 

When I talked to them, overall it was decided that it's not so much that he is specifically coyote like vs just medium sized wild canid. Again, in comparison to other dogs.

 

I doubt any of this is what the confo people mean, though - I bet they are thinking like Wayne!

[Smokjbc]

This post interested me and I asked some of my friends who are wildlife biologists what exact traits made my dog reminiscent of a coyote. Again, they meant it as a compliment of the highest order, and they also said that he is like a coyote *compared* to other dogs they've known.

 

.......

Behavior:

 

8. a "wild-type" intelligence, awareness, and intensity very evident in his expression and actions. By wild-type I mean it the way geneticists do, like how agouti is the wild-type color. Compared to other dogs, and even though he is well-behaved, he does not act domesticated (as in complacent or dumbed down). They said this was really the major aspect - that he is all THERE and completely aware of his surroundings, which is more like a wild animal than a domesticated one.

 

 

This is what I think of when I know border collies that have coyote like traits. The first border collie I met was a dog my friend owned named Deborah. Deborah was a black & white coyote, she was half wild in nature- probably had something to do with growing up on a rope behind a barn. As a worker, she was blunt, practical and even though I didn't know what I was looking at then, now I still consider her one of the better dogs I knew. My friend inherited her when she was old enough to come into heat and her first owner didn't feel like spaying her or taking her off the rope. She took her to a stockdog clinic, hoping to find someone who would want her (she was decently bred and both parents worked) and ended up watching the clinic and decided to keep the dog and work her. Deborah had no fear of anything, had a hatred for diesal trucks and could count cows . Nice dog, unfortunately she was killed accidently while loading sheep when she was 3.

[desertranger]

We have tons of coyotes here and the similarity between a BC and a Coyotes is not lost on me. What I see in a BC I also see in a coyote especially the face when the coyote is working. I'm opretty sure that if you could domseticate a coyote you would wind up with a critter as smart as a BC in may ways.

 

Another I've learned is other than a BC there aren't any other dogs that can chase down or keep up with a coyote. The reason is the loping gate of the coyote is the same as a BC, long ground covering, economy of movement and conservation of energyand then there is that burst of lightspeed at the end.. I once used two BCs to trap a coyote in a farmyard it work but it was a bad idea. One dog got injured and we wound up having to kill the coyote.

[Smokjbc]

We have tons of coyotes here and the similarity between a BC and a Coyotes is not lost on me. What I see in a BC I also see in a coyote especially the face when the coyote is working. I'm opretty sure that if you could domseticate a coyote you would wind up with a critter as smart as a BC in may ways.

 

Another I've learned is other than a BC there aren't any other dogs that can chase down or keep up with a coyote. The reason is the loping gate of the coyote is the same as a BC, long ground covering, economy of movement and conservation of energyand then there is that burst of lightspeed at the end.. I once used two BCs to trap a coyote in a farmyard it work but it was a bad idea. One dog got injured and we wound up having to kill the coyote.

 

I met some gentlemen from OK that used dogs- mostly working bred kelpies and even a rottie to bait coyotes. Coyotes are known for interacting with loose dogs and initiating play, luring the dog over the hill. Somehow they taught the dogs to bring the play within gun shot. Watched a video of it, it was bizarre and fascinating. I don't like putting a dog in that situation, but having lost two great cats to the beasts (in town), I shed no tears for the coyotes- although they have the right to exist.

[desertranger]

I agree Smoke however at the time I was living on a farm and losing chickens to coyotes was unacceptable.

 

It is amazing to watch coyotes and BCs at play. We went to visit friends who live near the polo grounds one evening and took the dogs out. They were bout 5 months. A couple of coyote pups around the same age came out of the brush ad started to play with birdie and jin. It was weird. I also mom coyote watching th proceeding. It was like the were all from the same litter.

 

Today we leave the coyotes alone. Today paintball and Airsoft guns are the weapons of choice if they get too close. Far cry from the 10-22 or Mini-14.