Barbie Board?

[Laurelin]

Ok but it still doesn't make sence. They breed for what they think is right in apperance but don't think their dogs are beautiful? Or don't want anyone to say they are beautiful? Not that I think they are but there are certain dogs that come from anywhere or everywhere that I think are pretty. Not the fluffy butts but just some dogs.

 

Still scratching my head over this. So ack breeders don't want their dogs to be beautiful? But lets prade them around a ring and have someone judging them on their looks? Confusing if you ask me.

 

I think it's more of the sentiment that their dogs aren't real border collies and that they believe most people using the term 'barbie' are not using it in a positive fashion. Not saying I agree with them but I have a couple of conformation bc friends and that's how they feel about it. I personally hate the term 'barbie collie' for my own reasons. I stick to saying show lines and working lines. It tends to keep me from offending people I'm around often lol.

[border_collie_crazy]

of coarse they think their dogs are beautiful, the problem lies in that they beleive that they are breeding proper working structure, within their system they beleive that looks are just icing on the cake, despite constantly talking about looks and putting so much focas on looks, they will always deny that they breed for looks. so calling their dogs "barbies" after a doll that is pretty but non functional is an insult..even if its apt lol

[Sue R]

...I stick to saying show lines and working lines. It tends to keep me from offending people I'm around often lol...

The problem with this is that it plays into the kennel club mentality - show lines, performance lines, obedience lines, agility lines, flyball lines, ad nauseum. It justifies breeding for each of these reasons to give these "lines" verbal credibility.

 

I always come back to the American Quarter Horse - halter horses, race horses, reining horses, cutting horses, barrel horses, pleasure horses, English pleasure horses (just about the same as pleasure horses but different tack and different clothes on the rider) - will the real Quarter Horse please stand up? Or is there no real Quarter Horse anymore? Or do they only exist on ranches where the horses do a day's work? A versatile (there's that word again), adaptable, sensible, sturdy horse has been "mutated" into a number of lines but how many of those lines can really do the job of a ranch horse any more?

 

Is it the future of all good (or once good) animals to just become what Joe Q. Public wants - pets, show/conformation, performance, whatever? Is there a future for good doing, working, production animals - dog, horse, livestock?

[Laurelin]

The problem with this is that it plays into the kennel club mentality - show lines, performance lines, obedience lines, agility lines, flyball lines, ad nauseum. It justifies breeding for each of these reasons to give these "lines" verbal credibility.

 

Perhaps. But I have learned that you will not win anyone over by calling their dogs Barbies because they generally equate the term barbie to useless.

[Shetlander]

Perhaps. But I have learned that you will not win anyone over by calling their dogs Barbies because they generally equate the term barbie to useless.

 

I totally agree. If you are looking to change someone's mind, using words they may find insulting about their much loved dog isn't helpful to your cause.

[Sue R]

To each, their own opinion. It's been a while since I used the expression "Barbie Collie" and I haven't used it with reference to a particular dog or person, but rather with reference to the concept of a dog bred for something other than what it should be, for appearance. Maybe I'm just not around kennel club folks enough to watch my language. Those that know me, know what I stand for. Those that don't, don't.

 

I'll step back and off my soapbox, and you folks can do all the proselyting. Keep up the good work.

[Ooky]

Perhaps. But I have learned that you will not win anyone over by calling their dogs Barbies because they generally equate the term barbie to useless.

 

Ok, but I believe that's the problem. They ARE by and large are useless for what people need these dogs to do. I think you only win them over when they can be open minded enough to come to the realization that their confo- (or sport) bred dog is LIKELY to be useless to do real farm/ranch work, or be competitive in real USBCHA trials, at least compared to the likelihood of the same thing in a working-bred dog. This takes maturity and seeing past your dog to a greater issue. It takes the understanding to be able to go, I LOVE my barbie collie personally, but I see the difference, and yes they would be useless in this regard. And to really understand the difference, they have to know a little about real work and they have to believe it is really really important.

 

So, I guess what I'm saying, is that anyone who is still in the phase where this term is offending them so much that this is the reason they refuse to see plain logic, is not going to be won over anyway, no matter what you call their dogs. And I agree with Sue that referring to them as different lines can allow both parties to just avoid the issue, and it may well keep things amicable between yourself and any confo friends a person has. But it also subtly validates breeding for something that's useless to the working world.

 

I really like Shayna's explanation on the culture.

[SoloRiver]

I think names should mean something. And if "Border Collie" can be used to refer to both working and show dogs, it's a meaningless term. This is why I refer to show dogs as Barbie Collies and sport dogs as Sport Collies. I don't consider either to be a demeaning term. I simply consider it appropriate to use different terms to refer to different things.

 

If they can come up with some term other than "Barbie Collie" that they find preferable I'll be happy to use it, but I don't consider the conformation dogs to be Border Collies and therefore do not refer to them as such.

[Laurelin]

Perhaps I have issues simply because I come from a strictly conformation breed background. In my breed your options are basically show lines or puppymillers. Learning about bcs is a challenge for me as it goes against everything that is generally true for my companion breed.

 

I've just seen first hand what terms like these can do to drive people away from the working border collie. I think part of the problem is they don't view that term the way the general populace here does. I don't say I disagree with your reasoning at all, I actually very much agree with your reasoning. It's just only after learning a lot about border collies and the split can I understand that reasoning. I'm just saying from someone like me initially it comes off as demeaning and rude. Why? Because I couldn't understand. I don't think they CAN understand the term as it is used here.

 

Just trying to provide a bit of a different perspective.

[juliepoudrier]

Well TBH I don't think the term "barbie collie" was necessarily coined out of politeness or to make the breeders of such dogs feel good about their dogs. Just saying. (Not opposing or defending here, just noting that the term came about out of frustration with the AKC for co-opting yet another purpose-bred dog and turning it into something else.)

 

J.

[Shetlander]

And to really understand the difference, they have to know a little about real work and they have to believe it is really really important.

 

That's a very big part of it. Most people with show/sports bred dogs do not need their dogs to do stockwork. I certainly don't and only started taking Quinn to lessons after I saw how he responded to sheep when he saw them from across a field at an agility lesson. I think it is safe to say that the majority of show/sports people simply do not see things the same as working people as far as what to breed for and what to call their dogs. Maybe it's a lost cause trying to tell them otherwise, but then there are people who change their way of seeing and thinking. I know I did and it wasn't calling my dog a Barbie (that's Sports Barbie to you! ) that helped me see things differently.

[PSmitty]

Well TBH I don't think the term "barbie collie" was necessarily coined out of politeness or to make the breeders of such dogs feel good about their dogs. Just saying.

 

Exactly. And I agree with you, too, Lauren.

[Sue R]

Most people with show/sports bred dogs do not need their dogs to do stockwork.

They don't *need* their dogs to do stockwork - fine. The fact that many don't realize or admit that most dogs bred for other reasons *can't* do stockwork because they haven't been bred for generations for those qualities, is what is sad. I hate to think of the number of people who say that they know their dog would be a "great herder" or an "Open dog" if they just had the time and inclination, as if careful breeding for stockwork abilities and instincts has nothing to do with it.

[ShoresDog]

It is such a shame that the AKC was able to register "Border Collies" and not "Parson Russell Collies" or some such thing. (How did the Jack Russell folks manage to protect their breed's name?) It's ironic, too, since my understanding is that border collies started being called *border* collies to differentiate them from show line "Collies" which were developed from collies by adding dollops of Borzoi and who knows what else, to get that long pointed head and huge coat.

 

Here's a gedanken experiment for you -- what would a Barbie collie board talk about if for a week, or a month, they were prohibited from discussing appearance, coat color, preparation for shows or show results? Would it change any member's point of view about his or her dogs?

 

Lauren, there exist Paps that are bred for agility -- I met some and they were awesome. The owner admitted they were not to "breed standard," too tall, etc., but fast and smart. I of course said, "Way cool!" When I ever get a small dog, that's what I want.

[MaryP]

I have only read a few posts in this thread (I'll come back every once in a while to see what the discussion is now). But, one thing I've noticed in a lot of these types of threads is that everyone talks about conformation bred dogs, sport bred dogs, and working bred dogs. I don't think the lines are that distinct. A great many (and I mean, many) border collies are bred with no purpose in mind. They are bred simply because someone can. They are not trying to produce a conformation champion or top sport competitor or a great working dog, though they may mistakingly believe that their dogs can be any of those things because of what they've heard about border collies.

 

So, if it is necessary for folks to come up with a different name for a non-proven, non-working bred dog besides a border collie, I think you'll need to come up with something other than Barbie Collie and Sport Collie, because it won't work for a great majority of the dogs out there. And I do think that the name Barbie Collie is meant to be demeaning just as it would be demeaning to refer to a pretty girl as a Barbie. If you want to seriously engage in a conversation about splitting out the breed (and that may very well be appropriate), I think that suggesting that non-working bred border collies should be called Barbie Collies is not going to result in any sort of meaningful or productive discussion.

[Ooky]

Lauren, I totally appreciate your point. There is a woman where I take lessons with a barbie collie and I don't go around saying, "nice barbie collie," becuase I just don't like getting in people's faces that way. Plus, she's out there taking lessons with the rest of us, and doing the best she can. If she showed up with a second, new conformation puppy, I might be tempted to ask what was up with that, but then again, I'm a total frosh at all of this so it's not easy for me to speak from a place of authority.

 

Liz extracted my main point though, which is that I think the MAIN reason people aren't won over is that they don't get what the work is and how important it is. Maybe it was way easier for me, having helped a little with cattle ranching on my uncle's farm as a kid, and then working in a field that keeps me hanging out around stock and western U.S. rangelands. But if you start to have real respect for the work, then I think that's the point where real winning over occurs, not simply when people are nice and non-confrontational. Maybe being nicer would help some owners find respect for the work, but I bet that depends on the person. Maybe getting mad when told their dog isn't a real border collie, thinking about it, and coming to a realization out of that proces would help others.

 

I also wish we could have a new, real AKC name, Australian Collies maybe? If there was a clear separation encouraged by different breed registries, then I don't think the "other collies" would be such a threat to the working border collie genepool. But, it seems to me that the sports people especially keep going back in and getting injections of working lines into their lines to fix problems they've created, or to maximize certain characters or whatever, which prevents a real separation. In any case, Mary is right that a lot of people aren't AKC and aren't breeding specifically for sport either - they are just taking nice lines but not breeding for anything really at all - which is surely a problem in any breed, but so much more so in this one that has such a fine-tuned purpose.

[SoloRiver]

Mary, you're right. There are a lot of dogs out there that were not really bred for anything. In my mind, they are poorly-bred or irresponsibly-bred Border Collies, and I think that is the most apt description because (unfortunately, and embarrassingly really) when and if one is able to dig into their pedigrees they almost always go back to working or farm dogs. My favorite dog is one of these

 

I reserve the new terms for dogs that were bred for distinct purposes that are not stockwork. Such dogs are essentially steps on the same process that got us all these different breeds in the first place -- the names just haven't changed.

[Laurelin]

Lauren, there exist Paps that are bred for agility -- I met some and they were awesome. The owner admitted they were not to "breed standard," too tall, etc., but fast and smart. I of course said, "Way cool!" When I ever get a small dog, that's what I want.

 

The problem with that is paps as a breed weren't intended for agility as their purpose either. It's similar to the sport bc argument. Just as agility isn't a proper method of determining a border collie's breed worthiness, it is the same for paps. The problem with paps is they're a companion breed so their job for 600+ years has been to be a companion. Unlike the border collie this job doesn't depend at all on any physical characteristics. So I think a general 'look' has to be adhered to or soon you end up with a dog that is 'papillon' but looks like a sheltie or looks like a chihuahua. I see it a lot from the petstore dogs especially. I'm not saying some show people don't take it way too far with the minute details but in general there's a look that is in big part what defines the pap. Border collies are most recognized by their herding style, paps by their ears. Of course their temperament is unique among toy dogs (it's the drawing factor for me) and they should be able to do agility and do it rather well but at the same time, it's not their purpose. Their build, temperament, intelligence, biddability, drive, etc should lend themselves towards agility and all of mine are pretty decent except one but she was spayed for temperament reasons anyways.

 

Make no mistake, I got my newest pap for agility mainly. She comes from mostly show titled dogs but has a couple full siblings that are good agility dogs so that was part of the driving force. She is the most awesome little dog ever- wicked smart, very driven... she's just a blast to live with. My first 4 dogs came from a breeder that breeds her dogs for a lot of therapy work as well as minor showing and minor rally/agility. To me therapy work is about as true a test as you can get for this breed's real purpose.

 

Back to border collies, I totally agree that if they had been accepted like the PRT with a new name then things would be a lot easier. All I know is that the couple of show bc people I know will probably not listen to a word you say if you use the term 'Barbie Collie' around them. You could make a valid point and then that term will completely invalidate the rest of what you're saying in their minds. It becomes personal to them and then your whole argument that you've made seems to be insulting their specific dogs and not talking in general terms. The ones that really don't seem to get it are the sport people I'm around. All the sports people I know believe their dogs to be 'working bred'. They talk down about the show bred dogs but really don't understand there's a difference between agility or flyball and stock work.

 

They don't *need* their dogs to do stockwork - fine. The fact that many don't realize or admit that most dogs bred for other reasons *can't* do stockwork because they haven't been bred for generations for those qualities, is what is sad. I hate to think of the number of people who say that they know their dog would be a "great herder" or an "Open dog" if they just had the time and inclination, as if careful breeding for stockwork abilities and instincts has nothing to do with it.

 

I needed you a while back, lol. We had this very argument on another board. Their argument on how they know their dogs can 'herd' is because they show 'instinct'. (Instinct being the dogs nip at heels, 'herd' other dogs, etc) Is there a facepalm emoticon?

[Sue R]

Mary, you're right. There are a lot of dogs out there that were not really bred for anything. In my mind, they are poorly-bred or irresponsibly-bred Border Collies, and I think that is the most apt description because (unfortunately, and embarrassingly really) when and if one is able to dig into their pedigrees they almost always go back to working or farm dogs. My favorite dog is one of these.

Absolutely! And you find these dogs being bred and registered ABCA and/or AKC or whatever puppymill registry of the day.

 

However, among AKC folks that I know, they are very cognizant of conformation lines, obedience lines, and so on. So, there are people who breed for "specifics" within AKC (and I'm sure the same can be said of some within ABCA, who produce for performance sports) to supply a market.

 

AKC does not hold a patent on irresponsible breeding, but they certainly promote breeding for the show ring as the epitome of "quality". That's just wrong.

[Shetlander]

The ones that really don't seem to get it are the sport people I'm around. All the sports people I know believe their dogs to be 'working bred'. They talk down about the show bred dogs but really don't understand there's a difference between agility or flyball and stock work.

 

That's been my experience as well. A few years ago, I had some hopes that true working bred dogs were starting to make some headway into agility in my area. I had an instructor with a "working bred" dog and other competitors were talking about trying to get a pup from the same breeder. About a year later, I had the opportunity to see the papers for a litter from this breeder. Her dogs were every bit as sports bred as Quinn. Classically sports bred from what I've seen. Half conformation and half watered down working lines. But they were all convinced that these pups were working bred.

[Flamincomet]

I think names should mean something. And if "Border Collie" can be used to refer to both working and show dogs, it's a meaningless term. This is why I refer to show dogs as Barbie Collies and sport dogs as Sport Collies. I don't consider either to be a demeaning term. I simply consider it appropriate to use different terms to refer to different things.

 

If they can come up with some term other than "Barbie Collie" that they find preferable I'll be happy to use it, but I don't consider the conformation dogs to be Border Collies and therefore do not refer to them as such.

 

If you call border collies bred for performance Sport Collies, why not call border collies bred for show Show/Conformation Collies?

 

Personally the term "Barbie" is extremely offensive to me (And I don't own a sport/show bred BC anymore, or have any plans to own one), simply because the DOLL is offensive to me. I hate Barbie and all she stands for, and IMO to use it to describe a dog is incredibly derogatory, isn't doing anyone any favors, and is just boosting the ego/whatever of the person using it.

 

I don't agree with breeding BCs for conformation in the least, but I refuse to use that term, because for one I don't think it applies fully (In some ways, but not all) and because it offends myself, and many others, most of the time people I am trying to reach.

 

But I've come to the conclusion that a large majority of the people on this board don't care in the least about reaching AKC people anyways, why would they want to? They are horrible people who are ruining the BC and they don't want anything to do with them. So they call their dogs offensive names such as Barbie, fat, useless, etc, instead of facing the issue.

 

But if someone didn't reach out to Ellie, she wouldn't be such a strong advocate of the working BC. And if someone didn't reach out to me, I probably wouldn't be either.

 

Autumn

[agilityrunningdogs]

A few months ago, somebody called Mal a Barbie Collie, behind my back, but it made it's rounds. I was horribly offended, partly because he's not, and partly because it's mean to call anybody's dog a derogatory name. I don't think the term is meant to mean 'beautiful', it's intended meaning is more along the lines of 'fake, plastic, lifeless', which is just rude. I've meet Show Collies, and while they couldn't do their breed's purpose, they do have emotions. They're playful and happy and like learning tricks, they can act sad when you hide the tennis ball or they can bounce up and down when you bring it back out again, they are not just duds that stand there and look pretty. The difference is just that the instinct has been bred out of them, which is a shame.

[SS Cressa]

Not sure if it was already answers... How do you define what is a sport colie, a show collie, or a working collie? (Pedigree, who they are register with, who their breeders are, what they were bred for, parents, etc...)

 

I can give examples from my and my sis pack...

1. Conner- Conner parents both lived on the farm "herding" dairy cows. He breds the dogs cause he adore what they produce. Where would he fall? I'm guessing working.

 

2. Cressa- Mom lived on the farm dabble in herding(correct me if I am wrong) and Dad lived on a near by farm and did more herding/"more helpful". (I really am not up-to-date on herding lingo or jargons) I would consider Cressa from working parents.

 

3 Troy (this is where it could become complacated) Both his mom and dad work. Troy mom live on a farm and helps with the day to day maintaince on it but she also does agility. Troy dad DOES come from a long line of conformation dogs but talking to the breeder and his sire breeder. Most of Troy paternal family live and works on a farm and dabble in the ring. Troy dad competes in the differents herding venues even, as stated before, usbcha. The breeder like the father. Felt the father would be a good match so bred her. So what does that make Troy a Show/sport/working collie? I think he is a working-sport border collie. or is it since he has a conformation dogs he automatic a show collie?

 

4 Aslan- Aslan mom dabble in herding and conformation but their main focus was obedience. His dad works on a cattle farm in (i think) MT. Would Aslan be a sport/working collie then?

 

I know of some show bred dogs making it to open usbcha and doing well does that make him/her a working collie or is he still a show collie?

 

How would you define the seperation? What about the dogs with dual purpose? They do both herding and ...

 

ETA: I even know of a couple situation of two working parents producing a show CH. Does that make the border collie less? Would, since it got it CH, be a show collie? what would that make its parents? or siblings? or would it still be a working collie?

[SoloRiver]

I know of some show bred dogs making it to open usbcha and doing well

 

Please, who are these dogs? I keep hearing rumors about such mythical creatures, but no one has ever been able to come up with an actual example.

[SS Cressa]

Please, who are these dogs? I keep hearing rumors about such mythical creatures, but no one has ever been able to come up with an actual example.

 

I could be wrong so correct me if I am.

E*** ** *** W**** Elijah is competing is USBCHA in open, O****** J*** Flash O’Fire is doing really well in Open. These are the two that I know of but... there could be more. This is going off what the breeders/owners said. One is in CA the other is in England right now.

 

I blocked out the kennels names. These both come from show line.

 

ETA I do know alot of dogs from show lines places on farms to work too and they seem to do fine/excel. one of the problem with just grouping all the dog together is they are all not being bred with the same purpose. The english/or maybe uk lines tend to focus on looks and herding vs their more southern brethern (who i am not quite sure what they were bred for). And their dogs are suppsoe to be able to do both.