Barbie Board?

[JohnLloydJones]

They take offense because they see the name as a denunciation of their own choices. In other words, it's really not so much about the dogs as it is about the people.

That was my understanding too. The dogs are the blameless part in this; the jibe is against the clueless conformation breeders and owners.

[Ooky]

What's the board's opinion on our dogs being called 'Coyote Collies' by the Barbie people?

 

Love it. Never heard that one, but all the wildlife biologists Odin knows (and he knows quite a few) have compared him to a coyote and I think it's awesome. They meant it as a compliment, too.

 

And as Julie notes, if Odin had turned out to be a biscuit eater, I would absolutely love him just as much, and be fine with that name as well. AND knowing me, I'd probably call him that to his face, as a term of endearment.

[JaderBug]

I figured that's what the general consensus would be... I know the first time I heard it I kind of had a "bwahahaha" moment, a sense of smugness came over me I kind of assumed that the Barbie people don't like the term because they know what they're doing, I enjoy that I really don't think they could come up with a name that would offend us

 

ETA: What about 'sheeple'? I kinda like it...

[Flamincomet]

I pretty much guessed the thread would take this black, hate-filled turn (And I am talking about both sides of this argument), these types usually do. Working BC people (as a general term) are as stubborn and thick-headed as conformation/sport people (again, a general term) are. Neither side gets the other side, they all think they're 100% right, no exceptions, and the hate I've seen directed at each other is sickening. I know you think that it is is justified, but when is hate really ever justified? I'm tempted to say never, but of course there are always exceptions. This isn't one of them however.

 

As much as some people don't like it, dogs are property, and people are entitled to do pretty much whatever they want with them. The good news is the same is also true for everyone else. No one is stopping you from breeding and working your dogs to the highest degree.

 

If you take your eyes off of your own work and instead turn to belittle and attack your "opponent," you may at some point look back and see that your work is no longer. Not to mention directly attacking someones opinions and viewpoints almost always in turn strengthens their original conviction. Kind of counter-productive. Friendly education however will produce much different results, depending on the person of course.

 

I for one refuse to participate in these types of discussions any longer. I'd rather put my time and energy into more important things, like my family (animals included obviously). It's much more rewarding and the end result is a lot more satisfying.

 

Autumn

[MaggieDog]

I'm always amazed when threads like this turn into conflicts about *all* non-working BCs being second-class, demeaned, etc.

 

I've been on this board for about 9 years and I've yet to feel that my dog (who is a *mix*, not even full BC) or I are unwelcome or looked down upon because of where she came from or her lack of herding expertise. Like some I've always assumed that the Barbie Collie moniker was applied to refer to show breeding practices and a specific, distinctive look/behavior, not individual dogs. A label, yes, and one that some don't like, but not intended to be used to demean dogs that were acquired for something other than breeding. The intention of breeding always seemed to be the key difference ime.

 

I'm not a fan of that type of breeding, nor of breeding outside the working arena, but that doesn't color how I see people who have dogs from those lines. I got into a serious argument with a friend a while back about breeder choice and I never want to repeat that, so she and I agree to be happy for the individuals and agree to acknowledge our differences so as to maintain a friendship that we both enjoy.

 

Why can't everyone here see that the majority of board members want to have a friendly relationship with those that choose to educate themselves about the controversy in the breed, not an adversarial one?? Isn't education what we're always preaching??

[herdcentral]

I love when people give dogs people emotions. Their dogs, really. They have emotion, I know, I do rescue and I see it in every pull BUT they do not have emotion like people. My dogs don't sit and listen to my calls or read my emails to see what I am saying about them. They do not understand death, money, beauty or regret like we do. That is why dogs are so beautiful and when we take that away from them to start giving them human emotions we do them a great dishonor.

 

I dont think it is as clear cut as that. Right across the animal kingdom including us there are patterns of similarity in what we are and how we react. Some mammal species like dolphins and great apes and elephants have higher levels of reasoning and understanding than others. They also have some similar not so nice attributes like we do.

 

Dogs generally live in the present, but I believe they can grieve, be jealous, love, fear etc. Sometimes I see an expression cross one of my dogs face and I can recognise instantly the emotion that is driving them at that second, because I to have most likely had that emotion myself.

 

No they dont understand and analyse regret, beauty or even all the other above emotions like we do, and are not going to be offended with all the crap that we carry on about. But one can still often recognise and understand what they are feeling because there is underneath it all, well depending on what you believe of course, we come from the same mamalian origins. We just abuse our greater level of understanding and and dont always use it how we should.

[Sue R]

I think its great. I wish they all hated the working bred dog so much that they'd close their stud book.

YES! That would be a big step in the right direction.

[Maralynn]

I'm always amazed when threads like this turn into conflicts about *all* non-working BCs being second-class, demeaned, etc.

 

I've been on this board for about 9 years and I've yet to feel that my dog (who is a *mix*, not even full BC) or I are unwelcome or looked down upon because of where she came from or her lack of herding expertise. Like some I've always assumed that the Barbie Collie moniker was applied to refer to show breeding practices and a specific, distinctive look/behavior, not individual dogs. A label, yes, and one that some don't like, but not intended to be used to demean dogs that were acquired for something other than breeding. The intention of breeding always seemed to be the key difference ime.

 

I agree 100%!!

[Sue R]

These last two comments make me think of a saying that goes along the lines of, "It's not where you came from that matters so much as where you are going."

 

I think it's not a matter of where a particular dog came from - a couple of mine came from a breeder who produces primarily for sport/hobby people, although the breeder has produced some very nice working dogs. Megan came from a very dubious background, with Swafford breeding in her near pedigree. I have slowly learned some lessons, and Dan comes from a solid, proven on the ranch and on the trial field background. Now, if I can only prove capable of handling and training him .

 

It's a matter of what we've learned, what we know now, and where are we going with this knowledge. Will I use it responsibly? Will I use it to make better decisions in the future than I have in the past? Will I use it to provide good, suitable, loved lives for the dogs I have and those I might influence?

 

Interesting discussion, a little heated at times, but overall still a thought-provoking one.

[Smokjbc]

I pretty much guessed the thread would take this black, hate-filled turn (And I am talking about both sides of this argument), these types usually do. Working BC people (as a general term) are as stubborn and thick-headed as conformation/sport people (again, a general term) are. Neither side gets the other side, they all think they're 100% right, no exceptions, and the hate I've seen directed at each other is sickening. I know you think that it is is justified, but when is hate really ever justified? I'm tempted to say never, but of course there are always exceptions. This isn't one of them however.

 

Since when is reasoned, calm and maybe a little heated discussion considered "hateful"? I always come late into these threads (been there, done that way too many times!) but couldn't let this one slide. I've seen misinformation espoused and calmly set to right through reasoned, passionate discussion but no one has been inconsiderate or hateful. And yes, we are stubborn because we've seen through the examples of other breeds that there is no alternative when it comes to preserving and improving working ability. Frankly, science itself has proven that breeding for the show ring is a vain effort to preserve something that not only doesn't exist but that is inherently dangerous to the health of dogs. Maybe that last comment is hateful....but I don't think so.

 

 

As much as some people don't like it, dogs are property, and people are entitled to do pretty much whatever they want with them. The good news is the same is also true for everyone else. No one is stopping you from breeding and working your dogs to the highest degree.

 

If you take your eyes off of your own work and instead turn to belittle and attack your "opponent," you may at some point look back and see that your work is no longer. Not to mention directly attacking someones opinions and viewpoints almost always in turn strengthens their original conviction. Kind of counter-productive. Friendly education however will produce much different results, depending on the person of course.

 

As I jot this post out, slamming my coffee and getting ready to go work my dogs (and admittedly, do a little "herding" with a person that has another breed but with a decent worker- spiffy little sheltie), I think most of the people doing the answering here have not only kept their eye on their work but mentored people in person and online, hosted trials, bred good dogs or supported good breeders or otherwise given back to the working breed as a whole. I'm pretty confident that this group can address blatant misinformation, promote the working dog and still protect what we love about it.

 

You are right- we can all do what we want with our own dogs. I compare it to writing- lots of authors out there get published, some are quite popular for reasons that have nothing to do with quality writing (I'm looking at you, Stephenie Meyers). I feel free to say that I think something like the Twilight series is poorly written with disturbing subtext considering it's written aimed at young girls. But I recognize that some people find entertainment by reading those books and it doesn't make them any less of a good person for enjoying them. I would draw the line at agreeing with them that they were "the best books ever!!!" as one girl put it to me. I sure would not buy a book from that author if I was looking for quality work, nor would I buy or support breeding dogs from a person that was breeding for anything less than quality work.

 

Wish I had time to edit this but got to get out to the sheep!

[Sue R]

It's oftentimes the folks who have a different goal, a different mindset, and a different agenda that find a discussion like this to be negative. It's been educational for those who want to learn. It's been an argument for those who don't want to learn, or who prefer to disagree with sound reasoning and an intelligent discussion of important concepts.

[desertranger]

Ive been following thread. Have I missed something? What does Stephenie Meyers have to do with Barbie Collies?

[Smokjbc]

Ive been following thread. Have I missed something? What does Stephenie Meyers have to do with Barbie Collies?

 

Maybe Jon Katz would have been a better example.

[Pippin's person]

What's the board's opinion on our dogs being called 'Coyote Collies' by the Barbie people?

 

Funny thing is that is exactly what I call Hamish regularly

[Maralynn]

What's the board's opinion on our dogs being called 'Coyote Collies' by the Barbie people?

 

I call Kipp a coyote, too

[Shetlander]

Ive been following thread. Have I missed something? What does Stephenie Meyers have to do with Barbie Collies?

 

I believe the point was you can disagree and still be civil and even respect the other person.

[Kelleybean]

I believe the point was you can disagree and still be civil and even respect the other person.

 

ITA Liz. The name calling ("barbie collie") makes me feel like I'm back in high school. I don't understand why some feel a need to put others down. I thought that this was a board that I could come to to discuss the unique and charming (and sometimes exasperating) qualities that BC's have, but this thread is definately making me have second thoughts. (about the board, not my pup!)

[juliepoudrier]

Kelleybean,

This (and a few others) is a perennial topic. There's a lot more to this forum than this one regular discussion. I'm sure you can find a lot of useful information and helpful people here if you simply choose to ignore the stuff/people you don't like and the advice that doesn't apply to you. It's that simple.

 

It might help you to understand where the working dog folks are coming from if you picked up Donald McCaig's The Dog Wars--it's a small book and a pretty easy read. It will explain a lot about why the working dog folks feel so strongly about the AKC and conformation breeding practices. I understand why people love border collies for stuff other than stockwork--my first border collie was a rescue who was intended to be my jogging partner and only later became a working partner--but it would be nice if people who chose border collies for something other than stockwork would make an *attempt* to understand the working lifestyle and why these dogs are important to us for the very reason they were originally created.

 

And if you really think the name calling only goes one way, you're mistaken. It's just that most of us with working-bred dogs who are on the receiving end choose to ignore it (and I'm not just talking about *names* like coyote, but the oft-repeated assertions that working bred dogs are unhealthy, temperamentally unsound, trained with inhumane practices and so on--stuff that's a lot more harmful than just name calling), and of course since this is not a conformation dog board, you don't see a lot of that, although there was plenty in the past. At any rate, if I got upset every time someone disagreed with me or said something disparaging about dogs in general that I then chose to apply to my personal dogs (see my earlier comments regarding red dogs or mostly white dogs) I'd go through life pretty unhappy. Instead I *choose* not to be bothered by other people's prejudices and perceptions and simply live my life with my dogs. It works very well. And I don't quite understand why some people persist in *choosing* to be offended by a term that is the jargon/codeword for an entire *breeding philosophy* and not perjorative to anyone's personal pet.

 

J.

[Sue R]

This (and a few others) is a perennial topic. There's a lot more to this forum than this one regular discussion. I'm sure you can find a lot of useful information and helpful people here if you simply choose to ignore the stuff/people you don't like and the advice that doesn't apply to you. It's that simple.

Amen to that, for all of us!

 

And I don't quite understand why some people persist in *choosing* to be offended by a term that is the jargon/codeword for an entire *breeding philosophy* and not perjorative to anyone's personal pet.

 

J.

True. I need to remember when I write that this is the case and I shouldn't imply otherwise, even in error.

[Shetlander]

And I don't quite understand why some people persist in *choosing* to be offended by a term that is the jargon/codeword for an entire *breeding philosophy* and not perjorative to anyone's personal pet.

 

Because offense is in the eye of the beholder. I've been on these boards long enough that "Barbie" gives me only the slightest, briefest eye twitch, but the fact remains that "Barbie" is viewed as derogatory and offensive by lots of people, regardless of how the term is meant. This has been made clear in discussion after discussion when the term gets trotted out and new people/pet people/sports people/"choosing to be offended" people react negatively. It seems to me that people who continue to use the term despite repeated objections are also making a "choice" when they could simply phrase themselves differently. But if that is the only way they feel comfortable phrasing it, then I'd rather they continue to use "Barbie" than stop sharing their thoughts because I find what they have to say interesting, educational and/or thought provoking.

[Kelleybean]

I saw several Barbie Collies this weekend, I think I threw up a little in my mouth. They're so ugly! and fluffy! I also can't figure out why they seem to have a big bulbous forehead and far apart wide-set eyes... blech...

 

Well, comments like this are certainly not interesting, educational or thought provoking IMO. This is just plain ole mean! Why even go there???

[Sue R]

Well, comments like this are certainly not interesting, educational or thought provoking IMO. This is just plain ole mean! Why even go there???

I absolutely agree with you. A comment like this is unnecessary, nasty, and shouldn't be posted here.

[bcnewe2]

I saw several Barbie Collies this weekend, I think I threw up a little in my mouth. They're so ugly! and fluffy! I also can't figure out why they seem to have a big bulbous forehead and far apart wide-set eyes... blech...

 

I think this type statement happens when people finally get to the point of understanding what we are trying to protect. I don't know how long Jaderbug has been into border collies or understanding the difference so I really can't comment on her personally but I think it's just spoken with new understanding, passion and comitment to working dogs and most grow beyond that type thinking of particular dogs.

 

If I was going to discuss personal issues, I'd rather pick on the "people" who show the dogs and compare them to working bred dogs with lots of excuses thrown in as to why thier dogs aren't doing as well as the working dogs, not their dogs. But then again, that would just be mean schoolyard stuff. SO I'll try hard to keep my fingers civil.

[Laurelin]

I think this thread has been very interesting and educational in places. I've enjoyed a lot of the discussion.

 

I will say that when I was new to the board and wanting to know about border collies the term was VERY off putting for me. I have zero interest in conformation border collies, I never have, yet the term offended me. It made me not like the working border collie people, I felt they were just being snide and rude. THis changed when someone explained things educationally without using these kinds of terms and saying dogs were ugly/fat/stupid/whatever. It's when a few people on this site that I highly admire explained why AKC bred conformation dogs were not good workers, compared things with facts and pretty much unbiased language that I understood. I just think it's important to realize how you say something has a huge impact on new people or people who are genuinely interested but not informed on the culture.

 

Honestly the working border collie world when I first came to these boards was not something I thought I wanted to support simply because of what I saw initially.

[pansmom]

Maybe Jon Katz would have been a better example.

 

Maybe, but I was with you for Stephanie Meyers, having a passionate dislike for her writing (and its subtext) myself.

 

As for the rest of this debate, may I add that I was never offended by the term "Barbie Collie," personally, even though I am of the opinion that fluffy, thick-set border collies -- as well as corgis, shelties, and a lot of other showy dog breeds -- are incredibly cute and cuddly-looking, no matter how bulbous the forehead or wideset the eyes. But I never got offended at the term because I knew about the AKC/working-bred debate before I got on these boards - even before I got Pan when we were researching the breed - so when I first saw it, I assumed that the "Barbie Collie" term was a reaction to the AKC co-opting the breed and directing it along a different, more popular, path while using the same name. In other words, I felt like the working lines camp had the right to be angry, and that the snarky renaming of the other bloodlines was their way of stipulating, "They are not us." And that's all it is in my opinion, snark, a kind of verbal backlash from one insider to another about an outsider perspective.

 

I mean, I agree that rhetorically speaking, if you are trying to convert someone, you should avoid using snark and sarcasm. But since (if I remember correctly) this board is clearly designated as being firmly in the working camp in the Read Me First stickie, I don't see any harm done by using a snarky term like "Barbie Collie" here, because according to that stipulation basically all people are doing is muttering amongst themselves, or else if anyone else overhears they are kind of asking for it by not only being on this board but clicking the thread entitled "Barbie Board." I mean, personally that particular term to me is kind of funny, but maybe that's because the debate is something in which I am not personally involved. I mean, I would never buy a conformation show pup because I personally am not into supporting the breeding and show dog industry when there are so many homeless animals out there. But I would probably never buy a dog from working lines either. Although I totally respect those who do stockwork and the idea that BCs ought to be bred for stockwork (because that is what makes the dog so intelligent and loyal and eager to work/please and independent and able to pick up verbal cues, which is what I love about the dog), the fact remains that I don't live on a ranch or need a dog to do stockwork, so I'd rather rescue a dog than buy one.

 

Which is why I would never "throw up a little in my mouth" at the sight of any dog. That comment was a bit snide (who cares about which physical traits manifest? surely some working dogs manifest these traits also? isn't it hypocritical of a working line supporter to make any negative comments about appearance at all?). But I took that comment as hyperbole anyhow. Another inside joke. I don't know. From my perspective, this debate is interesting and entertaining and thought provoking.