Denise Wall Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 I'm kind of on a mission (or you might call it a rampage ) over this right now. I would love nothing more than if this could be made a sticky here since so many of the questions asked about raw in this section are addressed: Rawfeeding myths link Denise (raw feeder for seven + years) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseAmy Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Denise thank you!!! At one point in time I thought people who fed raw were well shall we just say a little off the wall. Now I always fed a "high" quality kibble. After all the kibble recalls. I started to research raw..somehow it seemed so hard--how to balance the diet etc etc etc. One night after giving them dog biscuits and crating them for the night there on tv was a recall of the very dog biscuits I had just given them. Decided right then and there that no kibble or biscuits would ever enter their mouths again. They have been raw fed now for almost 2.5 years and never looked better. I have set sheep at trials for 8 hrs with the same dog and she was still going strong at the end of the day. It's not that hard and in fact i find it alot easier then kibble. Do yourselves a favor and google rendering plants sometime.. This is something I'm very passion about. Last year i had to put down a 7 year old dog..she had liver failure. It was horrible. I can't prove it but (and my vet agrees) it was from 2 years before when the afloxin recall took place. they were eating chicken soup which has no corn. But it's all processed through the same hopper. she had all the symtoms of mild exposure to afloxin-- even the time frame for death was right on the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 I will admit up front that I am not a raw feeder, even though I do feed some raw food. I'd like to thank Denise for this excellent link, and I've spent quite some time reading a number of the articles. Very helpful, thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Thanks Denise. I just appreciate you not using all caps (RAW) as if the word is an acronym or proper noun, or as if the person using such a feeding program feels the need to shout it out for all to see! lol! Sorry, but improper capitalization is a pet peeve of mine and it seems a disproportionate number of raw feeders are guilty of this. I feed some of my dogs raw and some not. If I could find a good consistent source of reasonably priced raw meats, I'd probably switch everyone to raw. As it is, I've decided that I have spent far too much time worrying about a balanced diet for my raw fed dogs. (Then there's Lark, who refuses raw ground chuck but eats raw ground venison--maybe she knows something about the US beef supply that the rest of us don't! Ha!) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Yes, thanks for posting the articles, and nice avatar! I don't feed totally raw, but I supplement our kibble/canned combo with it regularly. I think pure common sense dictates that whole foods must just be healthier for any being. Just like I believe that same food philosophy for myself but still eat cereal or other processed foods sometimes out of convenience, not because they are better, that is how I still feed kibble/canned. Even though I only supplement, it's weird but I have run into several of these "myths" told to me as reasons that what I'm doing is silly and probably very dangerous. Weird. Many of the same people compliment Odin on his very sparkly white teeth and ask me how much I brush them. Well, actually never, I just try to see he gets edible bones regularly and recreational bones occasionally. Then people go off about bacteria, choking, splintering, etc etc. I feel like, do you not the the very healthy dog with a very clean mouth and who is most definitely not dead sitting right in front of you? Even with most vets, when I tell what I feed him get really odd about it, usually telling me I shouldn't do it. These articles give some good info to counter these arguments! I have one issue with the articles though - I think in trying to make the case for the full prey model they misrepresent the evolutionary relationship between wolves and dogs and what it means that they are closely related. They are still very similar physiologically, but similar does not mean the same. But dogs (who are the same species as wolves but a very distinct subspecies - Canis lupus v. Canis lupus familiaris) have coevolved with man for something like 15,000 years. I did not see any good evidence that refuted the very logical idea that dogs in general are likely to be more omnivorous than wolves. There is a sliding scale within and between the three main categories of carnivore, omnivore, and herbivore. For example, cats are more carnivorous, with even shorter digestive tracts and more specialized dentition, than dogs. Also, different individuals from a given species will display a range of dietary needs, utilization abilities, and preferences along that scale - just like with any other complex continuous set of phenotypic traits. I theorize that for 15,000 years, that dogs that had severe reactions to eating grains and vegetables probably reproduced less than dogs whose systems were able to utilize these foods better, both in accidental breedings and probably through purposeful artificial selection as well. If this were true, it would constitute selection pressure towards a more omnivorous animal. And it is certainly true that for 15,000 years, carnivorous dogs *have* been sharing with humans a much more omnivorous diet than wolves eat, and profiting very well in evolutionary terms for it! So it seems to me that it is possible an all meat, full-prey model diet may not be the de facto best diet for every dog. The articles, which have a wealth of great information, still did not change my mind about that. But this is just me nitpicking a theoretical point, in relation to my experience I'm beginning to think this diet might be best for Odin. He gets less and less excited about kibble in general, and being a sushi and raw beef fan, quite a carnivorous-type human myself, I can't say I blame him (he still loves canned, tho). I try all the time to introduce raw and cooked healthy fruits and vegetables, but he steadfastly refuses to eat any of those, even if they are coated in meat juice (which he licks off). A bowl of chicken and white rice to settle his stomach if it gets worked up means he removes each piece of chicken very carefully from the rice, and then licks the rice to get the chicken flavor off. But he will eat McDonald's fries, which only strengthens my conviction that they put some sort of addicting drug in those things. He digs dairy, eggs, organs, meat and bones. I *really* wish I could switch Benway over to all raw or raw/cooked combo. His teeth are not good. I want him to stay around forever. But he refuses to eat it, ever, even when I combine it with clicker training and even when he seems initially interested. He never even licks it. Any suggestions for getting a reticent cat to eat raw? edit - irritating misspelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 You can stick that stickie on every newbie's nose Denise, but you still can't make them read. Wendy, raw feeder for 11 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 You can stick that stickie on every newbie's nose Denise, but you still can't make them read. Wendy, raw feeder for 11 years Or maybe sometimes they will...Wendy, I know it has been several of your posts and Denise's that made me feel I wanted to try raw food in the first place, and supplement with increasing amounts as I get more comfortable. We are sort of foodies - I think Odin is becoming a canine one too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseAmy Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 You can stick that stickie on every newbie's nose Denise, but you still can't make them read. Wendy, raw feeder for 11 years You can never tell. If you had at one time told me I would be a raw feeder I would of laughed at ya! Personally I thought people who fed raw were left over from the hippy days or some other weird era. And look at me now..one of the weird people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 *growling* the more I read about canine nutrition and raw vs kibble etc the less I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 *growling* the more I read about canine nutrition and raw vs kibble etc the less I understand. I think it's easy to get confused if you let it overwhealm you. I read a few articles on raw, decided it all made sense, converted the calories of the current kibble and calculated roughly what amount of meat was equivelent and started feeding. So far, I think it's a great decision. I use a staple of chicken backs/necks, and supplement with ground whatever is on sale, organ meat (bought up all my store's supply of kidney at 11 cents a package), occasional whole salmon (pre -frozen for 24 hours). My grocery store drops the price on any meat getting near expiry by almost half, so I get deals there. Chunks of bisonthe other day for next to nothing. Once a week or so I add an egg. No veggies or additives. Not a lot of work, and I spend about the same as I did with premium kibble (Orijen) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Thanks Denise. I just appreciate you not using all caps (RAW) as if the word is an acronym or proper noun, or as if the person using such a feeding program feels the need to shout it out for all to see! lol! Maybe some people get raw confused with the acronym BARF? I'll take raw, in whatever form over that any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 *growling* the more I read about canine nutrition and raw vs kibble etc the less I understand. I'm with you!! Shoot, I'm not even sure what's safe for me to eat any more, let alone my dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I'm with you!! Shoot, I'm not even sure what's safe for me to eat any more, let alone my dog. Good point. I just finished reading a book about prion diseases that kind of reinforced that feeling for me as well.... (Of course, the dogs are probably safer eating the products of Big Ag than humans are! Okay, I know that's a bit of an overstatement. Still.) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I'm with you!! Shoot, I'm not even sure what's safe for me to eat any more, let alone my dog. That's an easy one. Everything you eat is bad for you. So sayeth the FDA. As proof they cite the fact that everything that eats food, dies. So far they're 100%. :D My dogs eat better than I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 That's an easy one. Everything you eat is bad for you. So sayeth the FDA. As proof they cite the fact that everything that eats food, dies. So far they're 100%. What's left to say after that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy V Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Thanks for the link, Denise. What's got you all riled up? Love the pic, btw. Wendy V, raw feeder for 8+ years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Thanks for the link, Denise. What's got you all riled up? Love the pic, btw. Wendy V, raw feeder for 8+ years. I keep not understanding what people are talking about with the "picture" until I realize it's my avatar. I never used one here and most places before. Maybe it's because I don't look as mean as people expected I sent you a long email as to the cause of my rant. Pull up a chair and get a snack before you start to read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 I sent you a long email as to the cause of my rant. Pull up a chair and get a snack before you start to read it. Would you mind sending it my way as well? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Would you mind sending it my way as well? Thanks! Done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hey, can I be on your mailing list, too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Done. Got it, thank you. Sent a reply as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 So, here's another raw question, (I read through the links and just couldn't spot the answer, sorry if I missed it). Anyway, somewhere someone posted that you should not switch back and forth from raw to kibble, something about digestive enzyemes being different, fact or fiction? The kibble we feed when we are not feeding raw is corn, wheat & soy free but does have other grains, problem, not a problem? Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 I've had no problems feeding two meals a day: one raw and one kibble. I've even sometimes tossed some raw on top of kibble, again with no problems. of course, that's just my experience and maybe my dogs have iron guts.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 I'm going to get killed here. But what the hey I'll just jump right in. Dogs aren't wolves. From what I've read they may have split off over 150,000 years ago. I think the oldest archeological evidence of dogs in human sites is about 15,000 years ago. I don't think that dogs even really act like wolves. Dogs in packs don't hunt like wolves. I don't think that dogs in packs have the intricate pack behavior that wolves have. That said I have to say that my dogs look about 100% better since I have been feeding them Evo. And I throw some raw meat into the mix. Ellie's coat just looks super. It is so full and soft and shiny. And her scratching, which has been a constant summer probelm, seems to have just stopped. Evo is not just meat. It has vegetables and fruit and other good stuff in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseAmy Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hey I would like to know too. Gee wiz I told everyone the reason for me being on the band wagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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