Myths about raw feeding

[RoseAmy]

Debbie the reason i've been told is that kibble and raw are digested at different rates. never tried it so wouldn'd know but that is just what i've heard.

[Sue R]

Thanks, Denise, just got home from work and it will take a good read to get through that. I know you and the Mick have been through a lot.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I'm going to get killed here. But what the hey I'll just jump right in. Dogs aren't wolves. From what I've read they may have split off over 150,000 years ago. I think the oldest archeological evidence of dogs in human sites is about 15,000 years ago. I don't think that dogs even really act like wolves. Dogs in packs don't hunt like wolves. I don't think that dogs in packs have the intricate pack behavior that wolves have.

 

That said I have to say that my dogs look about 100% better since I have been feeding them Evo. And I throw some raw meat into the mix. Ellie's coat just looks super. It is so full and soft and shiny. And her scratching, which has been a constant summer probelm, seems to have just stopped. Evo is not just meat. It has vegetables and fruit and other good stuff in it.

 

No, dogs aren't wolves, but they are carnivores, designed to digest mostly meat. My dog looks better when she eats a high protein kibble too (opposed to kibble full of crap), but you have to admit, feeding a more natural diet, like raw should be more beneficial to the animal. Processed food is processed food and it's not good for animals or humans.

 

I've also seen a pack of dogs take after a deer and yes, they can and will hunt like wolves it they are left to their own devices.

 

I would still find it extremely helpful if there was a website somewhere that gave really detailed info on feeding raw. Everything is so vague and it's really quite frustrating. I get that the diet is better for dogs, now how do I do it properly? I don't even find the yahoo list to be incredibly helpful. They suggest going through the archives....I've just spent the last two days looking for the archives....do they really just mean old posts? If there was more info on "How" to do it opposed to "Why" you should do it, I bet more people would.

 

sorry, end rant. this topic has just gotten me pretty frustrated over the last couple of days....

[RoseAmy]

MsDaisyDuke..it really is quite easy once you do it. For me what helped was to think whole prey. Imagine your dog in the wild..if he caught a rabbit his meal would be mostly meat, some organ, and some bone. About 80% meat and 10% organ and 10% bone. This is over the span of a week or so..think balanced over time not every meal.

[Debbie Meier]

The whole dog food deal is frustrating to me. I'm not committed to any one thing, I am finding some of our dogs excelling and doing great on raw, I'm seeing others that need a protein boost and then yet others (Jake, when he is working 5 hours plus a day) a fat and protein boost and kibble seems to be the best way to get it. At one point we went cheap cheap on the dog food front, but have since learned the benefits to corn/soy free on odor, fewer flies and poop volume. I love the turn to dust raw turds!!! But, it's not always practical price wise, so sometimes we have to go with what works, for the dogs and for the checkbook.

 

RoseAmy, I asked because we will be out of meat tomorrow and I'm transferring everyone back to kibble until we get home from the Sheep Festival, our kibble is high fat/protein so I like to change them over slowly other wise we get a little squirty for a couple of days.

 

Deb

[bcnewe2]

I would still find it extremely helpful if there was a website somewhere that gave really detailed info on feeding raw. Everything is so vague and it's really quite frustrating. I get that the diet is better for dogs, now how do I do it properly?

 

I would say I was the same way. I wanted hard and fast rules to follow. If you buy a book, you can follow exactly what it says but someone will always come behind and tell you a different way to do things. I dont' think there are hard fast rules, it's not FDA approved or anywhere else approved so no one has agreed to exactly what's right.

 

I finally did it. Just made the switch. I kept them on kibble for one meal feeling like I'd be keeping up the balanced part with the kibble. But I found they didn't really need the kibble and as I got comfortable I started leaving it out. In the end I found it cheaper and the only way I could afford it was to give one homemade cooked meal and one meat meal a day. Mick would probably need 2-3 lbs of meat to get by on only meat. I can't afford that with the other dogs. So what I did was start cooking long grain brown rice, oatmeat and then grinding up mixed veggies or adding a can of sweetpotatoes, add some olive oil, garlic, and flax seed, (becase those were things I was alread feeding at one time or another) raw eggs, sardines, mackeral and anything else that seemed like they'd eat. The dogs all shined. The old ones looked younger, and lost old lady weight. the young ones looked beautifuly shiney. It was amazing and quite evident within a month or so of getting rid of kibble.

 

Since moving to CO I have no freezer space, no stove and no kitchen space to cook. So they're back on high quality kibble till I get my new house. I still feed them meat at least 4 times a week. Really just so I can feel like they're still getting the good stuff. I've been here since the middle of March. Jazz my fluffy old girl is back to looking over weight and old again. Raven the other oldie's teeth are getting dirty again. I can't wait to get back to feeding them all raw. Jazz is 13 and her teeth will rival any 4 year old kibble fed dogs teeth.

I will probably still cook the grain mixture cause I still don't have a ton of money but if you watch sales or go in on lg quainities of meat you can do it on a budget if you try. It's amazing how creative you'll get. I always feel the need to tell the check out lady that the yucky meat I'm buying (heart, liver, kidney, tripe and other stuff I'd never eat) is for my dogs. I get some strange looks!

 

You just have to jump in and give it a try. You'll start to get it as you do it.

 

I sent the link to some kibble friends. THey all think I"m nuts. Oh well, all I can say is their dogs sure love to come to my house to eat dinner!

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

MsDaisyDuke..it really is quite easy once you do it. For me what helped was to think whole prey. Imagine your dog in the wild..if he caught a rabbit his meal would be mostly meat, some organ, and some bone. About 80% meat and 10% organ and 10% bone. This is over the span of a week or so..think balanced over time not every meal.

 

I'm just one of those people who always second guess when I don't have solid details sitting in front of me for reference. I don't like "just winging it" even in every day life! Daisy would only need to eat 1lb per day, if that, considering her size and activity level. So basically, if I started with chicken, I could half a small fryer and that would be a meal? Add in heart and liver one day and maybe something else another and we should be golden? Or would half a fryer have too much bone? Would it be better to just feed leg/breast bone in no back? What about pigs feet? Are they generally ok, or are they too much bone? Would that constitute as a RMB? Seriously...am I over analyzing this whole thing?!

[Brad]

I switched about a month ago, and won't look back. Both dogs have more energy (not sure if that's a good thing), their teeth are already cleaner, their poops are 1/5th the size and no smell, and if I miss cleaning up, it just turns to dust and blows away.

I did a lot of reading and decided that I'm not feeding vegetables at all. Dogs don't normally produce amalayse enzymes to digest them, so what's the point? Carnivores eat meat, not broccolli or rice.

I found a source for chicken carcasses at 76 cents/pound, so a month's supply costs me about $35. I then go to the grocery store and buy about to expire (for humans) meat at highly reduced prices. I bought packages of liver and kidney at pennys on the dollar. I started to feed about 2.5% of my dog's total weight daily, and weigh them each week. My BC gained 2 pounds, so I cut him back a bit.

I feed a staple of the chicken backs/necks (with ribs) each day for breakfast. For dinner, I give them either a smaller portion of chicken with added organ meat and beef/turkey heart, with an occaisional egg cracked in the bowl.

I also feed salmon when it's on sale (always freeze for 24 hours first) to provide omega 3 fatty acids. That's it. At the very most, it costs as much as kibble, but probably less, depending on what I get on sale. Orijen cost me $120/mo for two dogs, so usually I'm ahead financially.

For time, it takes a bit of organizing to get a routine down, but now it maybe takes me a few minutes more each day, tops.

 

It's not hard, it's not expensive, there is no cooking involved. The dogs get crazy at dinner time and love crunching away at carcasses

[Brad]

I'm just one of those people who always second guess when I don't have solid details sitting in front of me for reference. I don't like "just winging it" even in every day life! Daisy would only need to eat 1lb per day, if that, considering her size and activity level. So basically, if I started with chicken, I could half a small fryer and that would be a meal? Add in heart and liver one day and maybe something else another and we should be golden? Or would half a fryer have too much bone? Would it be better to just feed leg/breast bone in no back? What about pigs feet? Are they generally ok, or are they too much bone? Would that constitute as a RMB? Seriously...am I over analyzing this whole thing?!

 

Don't know about pigs feet, but you have the rest of it down pretty good. I've often bought whole chickens and cut them in half, tossing each half in the dinner bowl. The whole back is fine, not too much bone.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I recall reading that pigs feet were good.

[Debbie Meier]

Imagine your dog in the wild..if he caught a rabbit his meal would be mostly meat, some organ, and some bone.About 80% meat and 10% organ and 10% bone

 

I'm having problems wrapping my head around these percentages, I don't think I'm getting anything to yield those ratios, especially wild game. We always come up way short on organ meat and way over on bone, oh yeah then there is the hide and gutts that we don't feed or are you counting that as meat?

 

 

Deb

[Brad]

I read that the fur normally comes out the back end undigested, so I wouldn't count it towards much. While that percentage ratio is common in articles, I don't worry about that. I think more whole animal, and either try to build a whole chicken over a week, or most of a large cow or bison over a month. I feed organ meat about every third day or so, but it depends on what's available. Whole fish are good, if you can get salmon or mackerel, that's perfect.

I have a hunter buddy that is bringing me venison scraps this weekend, so over a month, the dogs get quite a variety.

[Debbie Meier]

or most of a large cow or bison over a month

 

We just fed out a young downer heifer that was in real good flesh, guessing she was about 400 lbs live weight, I was able to get 100 feeding from her, either I'm way under feeding and my dogs are easy keepers, your dogs eat a lot, or you are seeing something different then I am when you say most of a large cow over a month. Maybe I'm just confused..I'm feeling like a bone head tonight, sorry, it's late.

 

 

 

Deb

[Brad]

lol, sorry Deb, I meant all the parts of a large animal, not a whole cow! Some muscle meat, some organ meat, bone, any odd parts I can find at asian markets, etc..

[Alaska]

Daisy Duke, this is the site that got me over the hump of getting started: Raw Feeding 101 by Bill Carnes

 

That was 2 1/2 years ago now, and I haven't looked back since.

[RoseAmy]

Think everyone is getting the idea. As for % to feed I found the 2 to 3% way more then i needed.

 

As for cheap, find a real butcher shop and order by the case. In my case the little ma and pa store down the street has a butcher shop. I just went in told them that I wanted human quality food that most humans wouldn't want to eat (think cheap). My goal was to keep it under $1. pound. I order cases of chicken quarters, pig fries, pig and cow heart, tom turkey necks, kidney etc. Price ranges from .29 lb to .69 lb.

 

Once when one of their freezers went down they had 50lb of chicken that they couldn't fit in the working freezer, they called me and let me have it for .19 lb.

 

just remember it's the way a dog was meant to eat. The balance comes over time not at each meal. The only menu you need to think about it what makes up whole prey..

[Redbirdie]

I was talking to my bulk-order person I get some pieces and parts from. It seems there are a lot more people feeding raw now. There is more disagreement on how to feed raw now than there is on whether or not to feed raw vs. kibble.

 

The % I feed seems to be dynamic. Now that it is summer I need to add a little. When I began feeding veggie mush with meat, organ and bone I found my dogs' weight going down also. I stick to around 2.5%

 

I also order by the case from the bulk-order person referenced above. She gets specific things plus brand-name items from Oma's pride. She gives quanitity discounts also. I can get beef heart for $1.09 a pound at a grocery store, chicken quarters at .53 a lb., ground turkey under $1.50 a pound. I have friends who hunt and give me venison scraps, duck and pheasant carcasses. I've scored a few things from friends who had freezer-burned meats or their electricity went off and the meat was iffy. There are three free turkeys sitting in the freezer. The veggies I use are all available at the grocery store and I save some snips and leftovers from my food.

 

I did find this book helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Raw-Dog-Food-Make-Ea...4744&sr=8-2

 

The group, Raw-lite on yahoo is a non-judgmental and helpful group. I used to belong to rawfeeding on yahoo but they perpetuate a lot of the myths about raw and really blast anyone who doesn't follow their idea of how to feed raw.

 

It took some time to get into a groove with raw but I think it is the best thing for the dogs and I am finding it is cheaper now that I have my supply-lines figured out.

[MrRipley]

When I first started feeding raw, I found Monica Segal's book and pamphlets helpful. I'm not the kind of person who felt good about winging it (although I know MANY people who take a fairly casual approach to raw feeding with great results). Monica actually has feeding plans based on weight and activity level of various dogs. That gave me a baseline to start with, so I could become comfortable with amounts and ratios of meat, bone and veggies. Then I began varying it a bit from there. I DO feed veggies and fruit (and a tiny bit of oats and brown rice for Sadie). I realize they are probably not necessary, but the dogs like them, seem to do well with the added fiber, and at the very least they are adding vitamins and antioxidants to the diet.

[Lenajo]

Dogs and wolves and freely interbreed, and internally they are virtually the same. There is more phenotypical (outside) appearence differences within the dogs because of selective breeding, but open them up and you've got the same internal carnivore set up.

 

At this point the dog and the grey wolf have been considered by many as as the same species, possibly subspecies. The grey wolf"breed" was selected by naturefor example , the dog "breeds" by man.

 

A couple of concerns and thoughts I have from years of experience with raw feeding are below. And before I list them, I will comment that as far as I'm concerned raw is the best diet for most dogs out there. Prepared with common sense, just about anyone can do it. Is it perfect? No. But it's closer than anything else we've got.

 

1. And after the raw choice, my second choice would be a cooked and raw combination, then a homemade cooked. I don't like pre-packaged "all inclusive" raw very much - most are not as good as good kibble.

 

2- Kibble choices have improved. If you can't feed raw with thought and effort, then by all means select one of them. Don't be stagnent in your choice, and provide a rotational variety of quality kibble supplement with sensibley chosen raw fresh foods as you can.

 

3 - I think the worry about mixing kibble with raw is overrated *in a _healthy_ dog*. My parents and friends of mine have done it for years with their dogs - alternating 1 day with raw meat/vegetables/kibble and raw bones the next. Their dogs have enjoyed superb health, and I would say have equal health to the raw fed dogs I have worked with of my own and others. Good genes and daily husbandry also matter, but I find it difficult to argue with long term success.

 

4 - you *can* make a dog sick with poor or careless raw choices. Too much bone can cause severe constipation to the point of impaction, and there are parasites to be considered. Freezing raw wild meats (venison and pork) for 30 days a 0F or lower helps, but it can still happen. Venison, espeically warm climate venison can give you an infestation of tapeworms barring anything any of you ever want to deal with. There *is* trichinosis in pork out there - both wild and domestic - and I have seen dogs infected with it. The treatment is a real pain in the butt (repetitive dewormings) and if caught from domestic pork the health department will get involved as your vet will report it. You can't imagine what a mess that is either - including signs posted about it at the offending grocery in the meat aisle.

 

in short, be careful of your food source, and if in doubt DON'T FEED IT

 

5 - sick animals with poor immune system, poor peristalsis (gut movement) to illness, age or disease, should not be fed raw. The healthy carnivore system moves meat, and it's accompanying natural bacteria, through fast and efficiently. No time to cause an issue. Slow gut movement, even in a portion of the gut, means fermentation of bacteria, and fermented bacteria will travel from their to the liver through the bile. Acute and chronic hepatitis can occur from this. Your dog will get very sick, his liver enzmes will go throug the roof and if acute you will see skyrocking white cell counts as well.

 

Kibble slows down peristalsis as well (kibble can take up to 18 hours to digest, as opposed to about 4 for raw meat) so the same warning applies plus being sure if you mix meat with a kibble be sure it's not "off". Your dog might tolerate slightly off just fine by itself, but will become very sick if its stays in with kibble.

 

Been there, done that...you don't want the guilt of this one. If they are sick or chronically ill COOK THE MEAT until they are completely well. It will still be a far better choise than some SD corn filled recovary can o'junk

 

6 - yes I said parasites in venison. In particular tapeworms. Also an issue with wild rabbit. This is not the same tapeworms as the one from fleas. They are harder to get rid of by far. Same meds, repeated for several doses. Either get these in the winter after the freeze, or freeze the meat for an adequete time. Inspect the meat before you feed it at least, preferably before you bother to freeze it.

 

7 prey "model" is just that, a replica as best we can design it a fallible humans who love their pets. Wild canids do eat vegetable matter when they are hungry because unlike our dogs they don't get meals unless they find and actually kill them. Wolf puppies can spend days living of dirt, rotten scraps, reearthed buried bones, and feces (elk, deer, caribou, etc) because that's all they can get. Try and replicate that model LOL (yuck! - though I will comment that yogurt helps LOL) While the generalities are easy enough to follow, do not underestimate the natural patterns that wild canids go through - such as the winter gluttony in bursts, the spring starve, the parasite ridden months of summer. We can't replicate that in reality (nor would we want too) so it makes it impossible to actually model the true diet.

 

8- you feed wild meat only, so you figure you can do the "prey model"? Think again. Deer in this state are slick and fat even in the winter seaseon from eating planted plots of winter grazing, antler growth supplements, corn plots, and more. They graze crop fields covered with insectacide and herbicide that we won't let our livestock near. Maybe if you live in Alaska or Canada the prey is really "wild", but not around here. How about you? Do you really think the deer liver, the filter organ, is any cleaner than the well raised calf from a grass farm? Maybe not....

 

9 - There are dogs, and lines of dogs, that have developed grain-carb dependence. It's not common, but just as you can select a dog for a certain working skill, you can select dogs that flourish young on carb based diets. (often those lines are not long lived, but that's another issue). If you've got a dog like that a small amount of cooked grain may be what is needed to maintain weight and health. Can you change it? Possible, but it requires serious holistic vet help that some people can't/won't do (and may not be necessary if you aren't planning another generation from that dog) You have to make judgement calls about what is best for the individual animal. I have 2 I worked with here that need 1 cup of cooked oats about every 3 days (we determined this by experiement) or a tbsp every day. This combined with a raw diet was great for them.

 

Don't be a hard head. Raw or Die! is a motto that no caring owner should be preaching

 

10 Switch dogs to raw slowly. There is no medal for the fastest switcher other than the v8 smack you family is going to give you for the carpet damage. Once your dog is used to raw, healthy foods then you will find he switches between foods much more easily with less trauma and drama. If your dog has a sensistive tummy don't start out raw with a dozen chicken wings! Start with gentle steamed vegetables, cooked and drained meats, etc.

 

11 Beware of the results of only feeding locally produced meats and vegetables. Which ecologically its a good thing, you have to be much more aware of the mineral excesses and deficiencies of the area. You can correct this to a degree by feeding variety.

 

12 Stop freaking out about vegetables and dairy. While they should not be a primary source of carnivore nutrition, remember that the dog is a carnivorous *scavenger*. Make sure these products are from a good source, preferably raw (especially the dairy), and a limited part of the diet.

 

When you plan dog meals think like a coyote or a wolf. Are they going to pick that rabbit or rat appart and say "I don't eat grass or veggies" or are they going to eat it whole? If they get large prey - what are they going to eat first and most? What will they eat if they miss the kill for the next week and the berries are ripe by the den? If they pull down an elk calf are they going to bypass the milk filled stomach or eat it?

[Redbirdie]

Dogs and wolves and freely interbreed, and internally they are virtually the same. There is more phenotypical (outside) appearence differences within the dogs because of selective breeding, but open them up and you've got the same internal carnivore set up.

 

At this point the dog and the grey wolf have been considered by many as as the same species, possibly subspecies. The grey wolf"breed" was selected by naturefor example , the dog "breeds" by man.

 

A couple of concerns and thoughts I have from years of experience with raw feeding are below. And before I list them, I will comment that as far as I'm concerned raw is the best diet for most dogs out there. Prepared with common sense, just about anyone can do it. Is it perfect? No. But it's closer than anything else we've got.

 

1. And after the raw choice, my second choice would be a cooked and raw combination, then a homemade cooked. I don't like pre-packaged "all inclusive" raw very much - most are not as good as good kibble.

 

2- Kibble choices have improved. If you can't feed raw with thought and effort, then by all means select one of them. Don't be stagnent in your choice, and provide a rotational variety of quality kibble supplement with sensibley chosen raw fresh foods as you can.

 

3 - I think the worry about mixing kibble with raw is overrated *in a _healthy_ dog*. My parents and friends of mine have done it for years with their dogs - alternating 1 day with raw meat/vegetables/kibble and raw bones the next. Their dogs have enjoyed superb health, and I would say have equal health to the raw fed dogs I have worked with of my own and others. Good genes and daily husbandry also matter, but I find it difficult to argue with long term success.

 

4 - you *can* make a dog sick with poor or careless raw choices. Too much bone can cause severe constipation to the point of impaction, and there are parasites to be considered. Freezing raw wild meats (venison and pork) for 30 days a 0F or lower helps, but it can still happen. Venison, espeically warm climate venison can give you an infestation of tapeworms barring anything any of you ever want to deal with. There *is* trichinosis in pork out there - both wild and domestic - and I have seen dogs infected with it. The treatment is a real pain in the butt (repetitive dewormings) and if caught from domestic pork the health department will get involved as your vet will report it. You can't imagine what a mess that is either - including signs posted about it at the offending grocery in the meat aisle.

 

in short, be careful of your food source, and if in doubt DON'T FEED IT

 

5 - sick animals with poor immune system, poor peristalsis (gut movement) to illness, age or disease, should not be fed raw. The healthy carnivore system moves meat, and it's accompanying natural bacteria, through fast and efficiently. No time to cause an issue. Slow gut movement, even in a portion of the gut, means fermentation of bacteria, and fermented bacteria will travel from their to the liver through the bile. Acute and chronic hepatitis can occur from this. Your dog will get very sick, his liver enzmes will go throug the roof and if acute you will see skyrocking white cell counts as well.

 

Kibble slows down peristalsis as well (kibble can take up to 18 hours to digest, as opposed to about 4 for raw meat) so the same warning applies plus being sure if you mix meat with a kibble be sure it's not "off". Your dog might tolerate slightly off just fine by itself, but will become very sick if its stays in with kibble.

 

Been there, done that...you don't want the guilt of this one. If they are sick or chronically ill COOK THE MEAT until they are completely well. It will still be a far better choise than some SD corn filled recovary can o'junk

 

6 - yes I said parasites in venison. In particular tapeworms. Also an issue with wild rabbit. This is not the same tapeworms as the one from fleas. They are harder to get rid of by far. Same meds, repeated for several doses. Either get these in the winter after the freeze, or freeze the meat for an adequete time. Inspect the meat before you feed it at least, preferably before you bother to freeze it.

 

7 prey "model" is just that, a replica as best we can design it a fallible humans who love their pets. Wild canids do eat vegetable matter when they are hungry because unlike our dogs they don't get meals unless they find and actually kill them. Wolf puppies can spend days living of dirt, rotten scraps, reearthed buried bones, and feces (elk, deer, caribou, etc) because that's all they can get. Try and replicate that model LOL (yuck! - though I will comment that yogurt helps LOL) While the generalities are easy enough to follow, do not underestimate the natural patterns that wild canids go through - such as the winter gluttony in bursts, the spring starve, the parasite ridden months of summer. We can't replicate that in reality (nor would we want too) so it makes it impossible to actually model the true diet.

 

8- you feed wild meat only, so you figure you can do the "prey model"? Think again. Deer in this state are slick and fat even in the winter seaseon from eating planted plots of winter grazing, antler growth supplements, corn plots, and more. They graze crop fields covered with insectacide and herbicide that we won't let our livestock near. Maybe if you live in Alaska or Canada the prey is really "wild", but not around here. How about you? Do you really think the deer liver, the filter organ, is any cleaner than the well raised calf from a grass farm? Maybe not....

 

9 - There are dogs, and lines of dogs, that have developed grain-carb dependence. It's not common, but just as you can select a dog for a certain working skill, you can select dogs that flourish young on carb based diets. (often those lines are not long lived, but that's another issue). If you've got a dog like that a small amount of cooked grain may be what is needed to maintain weight and health. Can you change it? Possible, but it requires serious holistic vet help that some people can't/won't do (and may not be necessary if you aren't planning another generation from that dog) You have to make judgement calls about what is best for the individual animal. I have 2 I worked with here that need 1 cup of cooked oats about every 3 days (we determined this by experiement) or a tbsp every day. This combined with a raw diet was great for them.

 

Don't be a hard head. Raw or Die! is a motto that no caring owner should be preaching

 

10 Switch dogs to raw slowly. There is no medal for the fastest switcher other than the v8 smack you family is going to give you for the carpet damage. Once your dog is used to raw, healthy foods then you will find he switches between foods much more easily with less trauma and drama. If your dog has a sensistive tummy don't start out raw with a dozen chicken wings! Start with gentle steamed vegetables, cooked and drained meats, etc.

 

11 Beware of the results of only feeding locally produced meats and vegetables. Which ecologically its a good thing, you have to be much more aware of the mineral excesses and deficiencies of the area. You can correct this to a degree by feeding variety.

 

12 Stop freaking out about vegetables and dairy. While they should not be a primary source of carnivore nutrition, remember that the dog is a carnivorous *scavenger*. Make sure these products are from a good source, preferably raw (especially the dairy), and a limited part of the diet.

 

When you plan dog meals think like a coyote or a wolf. Are they going to pick that rabbit or rat appart and say "I don't eat grass or veggies" or are they going to eat it whole? If they get large prey - what are they going to eat first and most? What will they eat if they miss the kill for the next week and the berries are ripe by the den? If they pull down an elk calf are they going to bypass the milk filled stomach or eat it?

 

Excellent information!

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Daisy Duke, this is the site that got me over the hump of getting started: Raw Feeding 101 by Bill Carnes

 

That was 2 1/2 years ago now, and I haven't looked back since.

 

THANK-YOU

That was a little more of what I am looking for.

 

MrRipley, Thanks for dropping a name, that might help me out a little too!

 

We're pretty lucky, my bf works at a poultry plant. I'd say 75% of the chicken is Alberta and 25% (if that) is from Saskatchewan, so it's pretty localized, anit-biotic, growth hormone and byproduct free. We can get one heck of a deal on chicken. A case (8 packages) of something usually costs us what one package costs in the market. Organs, backs, necks, bone in meat is even cheaper. I have access to wild meat and with the cheapness of the chicken, we could easily afford to purchase good organic beef/bison.

[Wendy V]

Excellent information, Wendy, and others. One thing I might add is that raw promotes the ability to feed only once per day, while many times kibble is to be fed twice a day. Once a day feeding simplifies life greatly, particularly with multi-dog households. I also feel that raw is best fed in large chucks, which forces a dog to grind through the portion.

[juliepoudrier]

I have one dog in particular who seems to bolt raw meals even in large chunks (like a whole breast). I'm amazed she doesn't choke herself.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

Excellent information, Wendy, and others. One thing I might add is that raw promotes the ability to feed only once per day, while many times kibble is to be fed twice a day. Once a day feeding simplifies life greatly, particularly with multi-dog households. I also feel that raw is best fed in large chucks, which forces a dog to grind through the portion.

 

I prefer once daily by far, but I have (exceptions again!) a few dogs that maintain weight better, on less food, if fed twice on most days.

 

One thing I'm not a slave too is feeding schedules. Other than not feeding directly before or after exercise I feed anytime its convenient for me. One exception to this (always at least one LOL) is my Aussie. She has to be carb loaded about 15 minutes before training or she is simply too overwhelmingly hungry to think. By training I am referring to obedience and agility, she doesn't work.

[nancy in AZ]

After reading this discussion, I decided to convert my dogs to raw or mostly raw. I gave Kit a chicken wing and she just looked at me like "what am I supposed to do with that?!". Then she started licking it. Then I held one part while she tore at the other. She got the hang of it after that. The other two scarfed theirs down in no time at all.

 

I see a lot of reference to feeding chicken/turkey necks and backs, but very little about the wings. Is there a danger to feeding wings? How about when fed along with quarters or thighs? Is the ratio of meat to bone too low? I've checked local grocery stores and all their poultry comes in already cut up, so no necks or backs are available to me.

[Maralynn]

After reading this discussion, I decided to convert my dogs to raw or mostly raw. I gave Kit a chicken wing and she just looked at me like "what am I supposed to do with that?!". Then she started licking it. Then I held one part while she tore at the other. She got the hang of it after that. The other two scarfed theirs down in no time at all.

 

I see a lot of reference to feeding chicken/turkey necks and backs, but very little about the wings. Is there a danger to feeding wings? How about when fed along with quarters or thighs? Is the ratio of meat to bone too low? I've checked local grocery stores and all their poultry comes in already cut up, so no necks or backs are available to me.

 

Thae main reason I avoid wings is the price. I can usually get leg quarters, backs and necks much cheaper. The ratio of meat to bone is too low, but you can add more meat to balance it off.