Ms.DaisyDuke Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I've checked local grocery stores and all their poultry comes in already cut up, so no necks or backs are available to me. I know where my bf works they do portion back, neck attached. SOMETIMES the grocery stores will order turkey necks, but not very often. The majority of the orders for the backs and necks go to Asian markets. That would be your best bet on finding those cuts along with various organs etc. Us westerners don't use nearly enough of the animals we consume and generally your regular grocery store will only have the "meaty" cuts. It's also cheaper if you go to the ethnic markets because cuts of meat with bone-in, skin-on etc. are cheaper to make. You'd be surprised, but at the plant my bf works at all cuts of meat are still done by hand.....Could you imagine cutting up 30,000 chickens by hand every day?! Alternately you could purchase whole fryers (that's just what we call them...small chickens, like game hens) and half or quarter them yourself. ETA: I can't read or spell today...sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy in AZ Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 There is only one semi-independent market ( a natural food store) around here. When I inquired they told me they get their chx cut up, but do have turkey necks and backs from time to time. Those are currently sold to a gentleman who raises hunting dogs, but they suggested I call first to see if they could set some aside for me. It would seem that will be my only local source, and a spotty one at that. ETA There are a couple of carnicerias that I can check out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesney's Girl Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Thanks for starting this Denise Good information from those who have contributed! Danielle, 3+ years of raw feeding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy in AZ Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Eureka!! There was a brief article in the paper today about a business that just recently opened up in the area. A man recently bought and updated the old slaughter and meat processing plant that caters to hunters and home-raised poultry and livestock. I just got off the phone with the owner who said he'd be happy to work something out with me in the way of selling me RMB for the dogs. So my next question is, do many of you feed raw pork after it's been frozen, or is it not worth the risk when there are other sources of protein ? Are chicken intestines a worthy meal or considered garbage for the dogs? Is it OK to feed weight-bearing bones just enough to scraping the meat off of ( he said he has a lot of femurs!) and then remove, or are the dogs likely to break teeth even with minimal gnaw time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I feed Odin raw pork and pork RMBs that have not been frozen and there has never been any trouble. These are fresh cuts, for human consumption, not expired. In general, I look for the same things I look for in my own meat - fresh, not grey, mostly from the counter and not the packaged bin unless something in the packages looks especially nice. In fact, many of Odin's raw meals are when I just pick up an extra portion of the same meat DH and I are eating, as if there was 3 people instead of 2, in which case he will get organic or hormone free, even. If I ever go full raw with a freezer then I imagine I'll start looking for good sources of bulk. The only frozen raw Odin ever gets are the Nature's Variety medallions we keep in the freezer at work. I would never buy those because they are like $26 for a package that would only feed Odin for about 5 days, but someone was being pushed to feed them to her cats, who won't touch them and now he has raw at work for a while. I don't think freezing is bad or anything, I just literally do not have the freezer space at home. BUT, if it is bacteria you are worried about, freezing does not kill most bacteria, it only "pauses" them. From what I've read, for non-bacterial parasites about a month of freezing is necessary to kill. People get so worried about raw pork, but actually the dangers of trichinosis are 1) not limited to pork and 2) very, very rare when eating meat for human consumption. I know that from my own human cookbook, which made a huge point that handling raw pork is no more dangerous than handling any other raw meat, and that a pinkness in the middle after cooking good pork (i.e. on the rarer side) is to be desired and not feared. Works for me, yum! As for the femurs, I wouldn't think some gnawing off the bone would be that bad if you are careful, as you said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I also feed raw pork, though usually it is frozen first--generally because I buy it in larger quantities and then bring it home and freeze portions--so not actually freezing for any perceived health concerns. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 People get so worried about raw pork, but actually the dangers of trichinosis are 1) not limited to pork and 2) very, very rare when eating meat for human consumption. I know that from my own human cookbook, which made a huge point that handling raw pork is no more dangerous than handling any other raw meat, and that a pinkness in the middle after cooking good pork (i.e. on the rarer side) is to be desired and not feared. As a nurse practitioner and a friend of a person who's dogs had trichonosis from USDA grocery store ground pork, I have to bed to differ from point 2) on. You are playing with fire. The other source of trichinosis that is prevalent is wild pork/boar and bear. Neither are eaten much in this part of the country. If you are feeding those, you would be wise to freeze the meat hard and at least 3-4 weeks. (check the CDC site). Or just don't feed it raw. A case of trichinosis is just not worth the cheap meat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Sorry about your friend's dogs, they seem to have been unlucky indeed! But my cookbook is not the only place citing such info. From Wikipedia: "The few cases in the United States are mostly the result of eating undercooked game, bear meat, or home reared pigs. It is most common in the developing world and where pigs are commonly fed raw garbage. ... ...Approximately 11 million individuals are infected with Trichinella; Trichinella spiralis is the species responsible for most of these infections. [12]Infection was once very common, but is now rare in the developed world. The incidence of Trichinosis in the U.S. has decreased dramatically in the past century. For instance, in 1930, 1 out of every 6 persons in the U.S. had trichinosis then by 1970 this incidence rate had decreased to 1 out every 25.[5] From 1997 to 2001, an annual average of 12 cases per year were reported in the United States. The number of cases has decreased because of legislation prohibiting the feeding of raw meat garbage to hogs, increased commercial and home freezing of pork, and the public awareness of the danger of eating raw or undercooked pork products... ...Prevention: # Cooking meat products to an internal temperature of 165 °F (74 °C) for a minimum of 15 seconds. # Cooking pork to a uniform internal temperature of at least 144 °F (62.2 °C), per USDA Title 9 section 318.10. It is prudent to use a margin of error to allow for variation in internal temperature and error in the thermometer." That amount of cooking is neither very hot or very long - certainly not the "sterilization" type cooking technique some people seem to think is necessary. My deal is that my family overcooked EVERYTHING. Pork cooked like this will sometimes retain a little pink, a lot of moisture, and a lot more flavor, and still be safe. Also note that many more people used to be infected, and that infection with Trichinella sp. does not always lead to the disease Trichinosis, even in humans. I still think 12 reported cases out of how many pork eaters in the US each year can still be considered very rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Unfortunately, I think you will find that parasite problems are vastly under-reported and under diagnosed. And with HIPPA regulations and paperwork trials for miles seeing that change isn't going to happen quickly. And if you believe Wikepdia for anything absolutely, I have some property to sell you! We (the humans) rarely eat pork here anymore except for bacon. And I should really quit that <moaning with disgust> for other reasons. I feed very little muscle meat pork, even frozen appropriately, to my dogs because I've found it makes them very thristy. A shame, becuase I have access to cases of brisket tips that are under a $1/lb I still use pigs feet and occassionally neck bones for them. We've not touched on feeding by breed. There is a book out by one vet currently, that feels that regional diets based on breed origin are best for dogs. I have found that he is right in general that my collies do best on a diet based (but not limited too) mutton, fish, (raw) milk, and oats. They don't do well on products like lots of pork and barley - which friends' German Shepherds thrive on. And from what I'm told you can't beat pork and beef for Bloodhounds. I wonder if we'll ever have some science on that topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRhodes Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I feed raw and kibble, sometimes one or the other or mixed together. I was very skeptical when I first started reading about people feeding raw to their dogs but once I started supplementing last year I was sold on it. The biggest thing for me is the increase in heat tolerance and stamina, it really did make a big difference. So far all the meat I feed has been free. There are a lot of little places around here that process deer and I go around and collect their scraps. I get tongue, heart, and liver from butchers who can't sell it (lots of people won't eat these things even though tongue and heart is some of the best eating on a cow). Deer meat is partly seasonal, I get tons during the winter and right now depredation season has started and I'll start getting it again. I work for a dairy farm and whenever we have a stillborn, a calf to die, or a cow I'll chunk out the bits I want before the fertilizer truck comes for them as long as they haven't been treated with certain antibiotics. I've noticed the tapeworm deal with deer meat. I knew it was a problem with rabbit but didn't realize it was such a problem with deer. I've been rotating giving the dogs Drontal Plus every so often and that seems to have taken care of that issue. I haven't had any trouble switching my dogs back and forth between kibble and raw or feeding raw mixed with kibble. Generally when I feed kibble with it I just throw in a handful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 We've not touched on feeding by breed. There is a book out by one vet currently, that feels that regional diets based on breed origin are best for dogs. I have found that he is right in general that my collies do best on a diet based (but not limited too) mutton, fish, (raw) milk, and oats. They don't do well on products like lots of pork and barley - which friends' German Shepherds thrive on. And from what I'm told you can't beat pork and beef for Bloodhounds. I wonder if we'll ever have some science on that topic. I have often wondered as two of my dogs (each with an Irish parent) both do/did not tolerate richer or more premium kibble as well as moderate-quality kibble that had more grains (not corn or wheat) in it. When I was at a shepherd's kennel in Scotland a few years back, the kibble he was feeding was loaded with cracked corn and the dog feces were enormous and full of corn bits. Their coats were not great looking, either, but they could sure put in a day's work (and he was partcularly proud of the Bobby Daziel blood in a couple of his dogs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Unfortunately, I think you will find that parasite problems are vastly under-reported and under diagnosed. And with HIPPA regulations and paperwork trials for miles seeing that change isn't going to happen quickly. And if you believe Wikepdia for anything absolutely, I have some property to sell you! We (the humans) rarely eat pork here anymore except for bacon. And I should really quit that <moaning with disgust> for other reasons. I feed very little muscle meat pork, even frozen appropriately, to my dogs because I've found it makes them very thristy. A shame, becuase I have access to cases of brisket tips that are under a $1/lb I still use pigs feet and occassionally neck bones for them. We've not touched on feeding by breed. There is a book out by one vet currently, that feels that regional diets based on breed origin are best for dogs. I have found that he is right in general that my collies do best on a diet based (but not limited too) mutton, fish, (raw) milk, and oats. They don't do well on products like lots of pork and barley - which friends' German Shepherds thrive on. And from what I'm told you can't beat pork and beef for Bloodhounds. I wonder if we'll ever have some science on that topic. Point taken. Poor Odin, he loves pork. And so do I -- that's my favorite dinner! Breaded pork cutlets (pounded to a scallopini) with a mustard-wine reduction using REAL DUCK FAT. I don't know how to type the Homer Simpson noise, but insert here. Yes I love DH. And we do buy very high-quality, fresh pork. I like to cite Wiki on the web mainly because the number of sources and the sources themselves are very transparent. So, you can use your own judgment of the in-line citations to figure out what you want to believe and what you don't. Most web stuff is not presented in near as transparent of a manner as this, so I find it comes off either seeming like gospel or I personally can't judge the accuracy if I don't know enough about ___ already. I have also looked up stuff I am actually a subject matter expert on (smeee, to you - and raw feeding is NOT the stuff of my smeehood!) and found it to be pretty well done. A lot of the inaccuracies were on fine points or just a lack of detail that can be misleading. But interesting about the lamb/mutton. That is truly Odin's favorite, with beef or maybe fish a close second. We are buying a lamb quarter from an organic hobby farmer this fall and freezing it at the in-laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy in AZ Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I plan on contacting the meat processor next week. He's offered to sell me scraps for .50/lb. Is there anything I should stay away from? Is it OK to feed entrails. trachea, esophagus, pig feet? Should I steer clear of rib scraps because they could be too small and become a choking hazard? I'm thinking it would be OK to let them gnaw on the meat of a femur. Are there parts that are just too much of a choking hazard to take a risk with? What would be you be stocking up on if you were in my shoes? TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 . I work for a dairy farm and whenever we have a stillborn, a calf to die, or a cow I'll chunk out the bits I want before the fertilizer truck comes for them as long as they haven't been treated with certain antibiotics. There is a bacteria called Neosproa Canininum that you need to learn about. Its a prominent causitive factor in still births in cattle, and if the calf is fed to gestating or lactating dogs, or to puppies, you can have serious neurological and muscle (particularily cardiac) damage. The symptoms can be confused with toxoplasmosis. Freezing the meat for 24 hours kills it. a vet article on the subject here I've noticed the tapeworm deal with deer meat. I knew it was a problem with rabbit but didn't realize it was such a problem with deer. I've been rotating giving the dogs Drontal Plus every so often and that seems to have taken care of that issue. At $4ish a pill, and most dogs needing several just "rotating" it in is a costly decision. We didn't typically have tapeworms here because we haven't had fleas in years, so the appearance of a large amount of them was quite annoying. To treat a large kennel effectively (15-25 dogs) you could easily pay $600-1K before you are done. The deer tapeworms were much more persistant that the flea ones, and most of the dogs had to be treated at least twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 You have to decide this Nancy. I feed all of the items you mention, but I am comfortable where they come from. Will the scraps be kept cold? or will you be wading through bins of inorganic as well as the meat in one place? (I draw the line at dumster diving, or definately garbage cans full of great deer meat and bones mixed with tobacco spit and used paper towels) Heavy chewers and weight bearing bones can result in broken teeth. What size bones are chew versus choke are specific to each dog. I plan on contacting the meat processor next week. He's offered to sell me scraps for .50/lb. Is there anything I should stay away from? Is it OK to feed entrails. trachea, esophagus, pig feet? Should I steer clear of rib scraps because they could be too small and become a choking hazard? I'm thinking it would be OK to let them gnaw on the meat of a femur. Are there parts that are just too much of a choking hazard to take a risk with? What would be you be stocking up on if you were in my shoes? TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy in AZ Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I'm operating under the assumption that it will be refrigerated. I'm not willing to risk dumpster diving and since I will be paying him for it I will make certain that's understood --if not it's a deal-breaker. I'm hoping I can eventually call to find out what he has lined up or "on the table" and place an order for so many pounds of organ/ meat scraps/bone etc. I plan on going to his facility and making sure we're on the same page. When I spoke to him on the phone, he was very accommodating and mentioned I was his third inquiry that day from a raw-feeder. Thanks for indulging my newbiness on the subject. I did join the yahoo list, and have been reading the archives. Wish they had a summary FAQ though. There's definitely a learning curve to this. ETA I can always leave a couple of coolers there and pick up as needed if refrigerated space is too limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRhodes Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 There is a bacteria called Neosproa Canininum that you need to learn about. Its a prominent causitive factor in still births in cattle, and if the calf is fed to gestating or lactating dogs, or to puppies, you can have serious neurological and muscle (particularily cardiac) damage. The symptoms can be confused with toxoplasmosis. Freezing the meat for 24 hours kills it.a vet article on the subject here Thanks for the information. I looked it up on some other websites also and if I'm reading it correctly it can be gotten through the meat from the cow also, as she has to be infected to infect her calf, and also can be carried by other animals: sheep, mice, cats. are specifically mentioned although in one article there was a life cycle drawing showing cattle, horses, sheep and goats as intermediate hosts although the article doesn't mention them in writing. At $4ish a pill, and most dogs needing several just "rotating" it in is a costly decision. We didn't typically have tapeworms here because we haven't had fleas in years, so the appearance of a large amount of them was quite annoying. To treat a large kennel effectively (15-25 dogs) you could easily pay $600-1K before you are done. The deer tapeworms were much more persistant that the flea ones, and most of the dogs had to be treated at least twice. I tried using the vet's suggestion of horse wormer, can't recall the brand, first but it didn't take care of the problem so went to using Drontal and that did the trick. I only have six dogs so the cost isn't too bad. What do you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I tried using the vet's suggestion of horse wormer, can't recall the brand, first but it didn't take care of the problem so went to using Drontal and that did the trick. I only have six dogs so the cost isn't too bad. What do you use? Drontal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Here's something to think about when you're feeding ground meat of any kind to any animals (including people). The process by which industrial ground meat is produced is probably one of the most risky in terms of producing food borne illnesses that's still allowed in the US. Meat from many different animals is blended together, then ground and thoroughly re-mixed to evenly distribute fat and lean. If you think about it from the point of view of a pathogen, this is perfect. Lots of oxygen to work with, lots of edges to feed on, and rather than just being stuck on one little section of muscle, you're now distributed through a huge vat of raw meat. I have a hard time buying ground meat for myself or my dogs unless I know the source. Even then, I would rather let the dogs grind their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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