Outbreeding in the AKC

[JaderBug]

I was reading Terrierman's blogspot today in response to the Obama's new PWD. He linked to another post of his in today's entry. I was very interested in it... it talked a lot about the AKC's politics and breeding policies and such. He wrote about how the AKC should allow outbreeding in some of the breeds that have more serious problems.

 

Is this something that could ever happen? I can appreciate wanting to keep bloodlines pure, but if your pure bloodlines are riddled with disease and deformities, I would understand opening the stud books and incorporating some much-needed hybrid-vigor into the bloodlines. He mentions Dalmatians as an example and the possibility of crossing them with pointers... why not? The ticking in the pointers and the spots in the Dalmatians are both the same gene... I don't think that would be that hard to breed back for.

 

He also mentioned a Pekingese that had to be on an ice pack during a photo shoot because it's heavy coat and bracheocephalic face wouldn't allow it to cool itself down. That's disgusting.

 

The pictures of the changes in the Bull Terrier's skull over the past 70 years was shocking to me as well. Rather disgusting.

 

What could be done about this? Do you think breeders would be willing to do an outcross to help the health of their breed? Or do they even consider/admit that they have any problems? Why doesn't the AKC do something?! I mean, I understand it's all about money (yes I know, I've answered my own question) but at what point is the health of an animal (breed) more important than the money??

 

I feel sorry for the dogs that have to suffer from the greed of their owners/breeders/handlers.

 

PS- I have a class coming up in the fall where we have to speak on an issue related to animal science, I think mine is going to be "Why the AKC is bad for dogs"... will be seeking help once the class starts

 

ETA: I also wanted to add that I saw last night's "Dirty Jobs" where Mike Rowe visited Happy Trails Kennels in Alaska where they breed dogs for sled dogs and competitions. I thought it was really interesting how they mentioned they don't breed purebreds, just a bunch of mutts, breeding for things like working ability, ambition, drive, etc. (sounds familiar!). You could certainly tell they were a bunch of mutts, they didn't look like the stereotypical (AKC?) Huskies at all- I could pick out a couple of breeds like GSD and BCs, among a few others. Pretty cool, I would like to study their breeding program.

[bcnewe2]

ETA: I also wanted to add that I saw last night's "Dirty Jobs" where Mike Rowe visited Happy Trails Kennels in Alaska where they breed dogs for sled dogs and competitions. I thought it was really interesting how they mentioned they don't breed purebreds, just a bunch of mutts, breeding for things like working ability, ambition, drive, etc. (sounds familiar!). You could certainly tell they were a bunch of mutts, they didn't look like the stereotypical (AKC?) Huskies at all- I could pick out a couple of breeds like GSD and BCs, among a few others. Pretty cool, I would like to study their breeding program.

 

I watched it also. In my other life I'd like to be a musher. Did you also notice that he said he had about 80 dogs in his kennel, and knew them each personally? With that many dogs he only breed about 15-20 pups a year. Stating that you can't tell what you have till they're 2+. More familar stuff huh? He had enough information about his dogs, personalities, needs, likes, dislikes, and nutrition needs of each one. I believed what he said. I thought the whole thing was totally awesome! Frozen poo/pee and all!

 

I won't partisipate in this ACK discussion. I have nothing to add that isn't negitive and I prefer not to go there at this time.

[sea4th]

I know some years ago there was talk of introducing the pointer into the dalmatian gene pool, hoping to offset some of the physical problems dals have. There was a big brouhaha about it, and eventually the parent club put a thumbs down on it. I just might look into it after I get home from work because I don't remember all of the details, but it never transpired --- officially, anyway.

[JaderBug]

I was thinking some more on this and I feel compelled to ask this question: Hypothetically, what if it were our breed? What if there were some massive health issues in BCs and the only way to correct them was to outbreed? Would we be willing to pollute the working lines with something else like an Aussie or an ES? What sort of an effect would that have on the working ability of our dogs? Would we be able to breed back that working ability? I know there's quite a bit of difference between working dogs and show dogs (i.e. they actually have a purpose) but what if?

[Journey]

Maybe pollute it with "Kelpies" but Gasp...an Aussie, no thank you!! Thankfully this nightmare will not come to fruition as we have a tremendous gene pool!

[Lenajo]

Maybe pollute it with "Kelpies" but Gasp...an Aussie, no thank you!! Thankfully this nightmare will not come to fruition as we have a tremendous gene pool!

 

I think anything would go if we got into the mess some of these breeds have. That said, the first place I would look is a good working Pointer or Setter that was a "wind" dog (one that used it's nose to come around in front of birds - outrunning on them) would be an option of quality for the genepool. As would the old lurcher crosses to increase speed and cast - using some sort of sighthound.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

NZ Headers. Possibly HTCs if they've gotten their acts together a bit more. Select ES and Aussies wouldn't be horrifying, assuming they aren't in the same boat. and yeah, definitely some of the original outcross breeds - the working bird dogs and sighthounds.

[Tommy Coyote]

I visited a musher once. None of his dogs were pure bred. He even had a husky greyhound cross. I guess that worked pretty well. She was stronger than a greyhound and faster than a husky.

 

That kind of breeding bothered me. They had so many dogs up there. And when they got too many or had dogs that didn't work out well they just shot them.

[BorderCollieMom]

wow that just makes me sick. In the video when they talk about the bulldog...its just crazy thinking that they have changed that much. If the dog isnt able to produce puppies naturaly then they shouldnt reproduce!@

[Liz P]

That kind of breeding bothered me. They had so many dogs up there. And when they got too many or had dogs that didn't work out well they just shot them.

 

That is the exception, not the rule. It is also by no means something you only see with sled dogs. You can find that type of situation in every breed, even BCs.

[elementbcs]

Regarding crossing Dalmatians with Pointers, they have actually done this already. The "Dalmatian Backcross Project" was begun in 1973, and is supported by the Dalmatian Club of America.

 

http://www.luadalmatians.com/

[Laurelin]

Someone did do the pointer to dalmatian breeding but there was a big stink about it.

 

http://www.luadalmatians.com/

http://users.nbn.net/jseltzer/dal_poin.html

[mum24dog]

Our local Bloodhound pack here in the UK has dogs crossed with Foxhounds. The terrain they cover has a lot of walls and hedges and now way would a purebred BH have the agility to get over them.

They look pretty much like BHs only leaner and fitter. The BH breeders don't approve of course.

 

Pam

[SoloRiver]

Bruce Cattanach's bobtail Boxers (Pembroke Corgi cross to introduce the bobtailed characteristic) are accepted by the KC as I understand it.

 

http://www.steynmere.com/BOBTAILS.html

 

Outcrossing is a fantabulous idea. The idea of "pure" lines comes straight out of the eugenics movement, and isn't good for dogs. Luckily, in Border Collies we have a gene pool of decent size and aren't in the hole that so many pure breeds are in, but someday we may have to go there too.

[bc4pack]

Well...when you consider every 'breed' pretty much came from outcrossing originally...

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Not so much outcrossing, as the fact that pre-KC most "breeds" of today were more like "types" of dogs, or else lines isolated from types or breeds. You can see the same sort of thing today if you look at cur dog breeding - treeing squirrel dogs, mountain curs, etc. There's studbooks, and then there's kennels that specialize in lines, and there's kennels outcrossing for particular characteristics, and there's a lot of flux currently in the "gene pool" of these types of dogs. It's healthy and practical.

 

I'm not sure it would be possible today to rebuild the Border Collie. The foundation of our breed grew out of British history that won't be repeated any time soon. So I hope it's never necessary.

[lrayburn]

The ROM program allows outbreeding to occur within the working border collie population anyway. I think the idea of a closed stud book is integral to a bench showing program but rather useless when dogs are being bred for *ability* rather than simply being "purebred" dogs.

[Lenajo]

I wouldn't want to have to recreate the breed either but I do believe that it would be possible to do that (or broaden the genepool with other "breeds") *as long as the work remains the focus*. That little gem is a big one!

 

The ROM program rarely brings in new lines. Most are dogs that are of known but unregistered pedigree.

 

When the ROM program allowed any dog who could do the work, regardless of pedigree, then I think it had potential to help. The past program, before it became "border collie only" (did we not learn anything from the AKC methods?), allowed dogs like Paul Turnbull's Blue to be registered ISDS desptie being a Beardie.

 

ABCA has followed ISDS on this one. At this point even if you had an Aussie, Kelpie, or known mix that could do the work of a quality Open trial it would not be welcome in our genepool.

 

When it comes down to it, the registries that should know better...don't.

[Eileen Stein]

When the ROM program allowed any dog who could do the work, regardless of pedigree, then I think it had potential to help. The past program, before it became "border collie only" (did we not learn anything from the AKC methods?), allowed dogs like Paul Turnbull's Blue to be registered ISDS desptie being a Beardie.

 

ABCA has followed ISDS on this one. At this point even if you had an Aussie, Kelpie, or known mix that could do the work of a quality Open trial it would not be welcome in our genepool.

 

I wonder what your basis is for saying this? I can't speak for the ISDS, but there's nothing in the ABCA ROM rules that specifies "border collie only." I don't believe any non-border collie has ever applied, but as a board member I would vote to admit an Aussie, Kelpie or known mix that could do the work of a quality Open trial, and in the five years I've been on the board I've never heard a director say anything to suggest they felt otherwise. Of course, directors change, and there may be some people who would not vote to ROM a non-border collie, but I don't know of any basis to say that "ABCA has followed ISDS on this one." The issue simply hasn't come up, either in the abstract or through a concrete applicant.

[Lenajo]

#1 reason: I called and asked ABCA in the past and they said "no"

 

#2 reason is the statement that the following was required for ROM:

 

"A pedigree of the dog should be supplied to the Secretary, giving all details available on the sire and dam, including registration numbers when available."

 

Now either whoever I talked to at ABCA is wrong, or I'm making assumptions that when they ask for pedigree that it is required, and a dog registered....say with the Kelpie organization...is going to be turned down.

 

~~~

The issue simply hasn't come up, either in the abstract or through a concrete applicant.

 

This is an abstract conversation. It hasn't come up that we need to cross in other breeds to the Border Collie to broaden the genepool either yet. AKC hasn't accepted the pointer backcross Dals either.

 

If ABCA will take any breed, any mix, with the right characteristics to the genepool then we need to get in on the website ROM page.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Tess was the third dog top be registered on ROM.

 

When I talked at great length to ABCA and Board Members, I did not know her sire's lineage very well. He was from Germany.

 

They asked to find what I could and if it was blank, that was fine but she had to pass the other requirements.

 

Tess met all of the qualifications. Later I was able to find her lineage and it is on her papers.

 

I believe another person at the same time had submitted her dog to be ROM. One side was ranch dogs with no papers....she got her ROM also.

 

Did the ROM work for Tess? Her sons/daughters has qualified in Nursery in Cattle and Sheep and run at the Finals in both. They are successful Open dogs and have qualified for Open and ran in Open. Her granddaughter is a successful Open dog. So much so that a certain top natioanlly ranked handler wants to buy her and has first dibs on her.

 

It's a good program and the proof in in the pudding.

 

I had nothing but super support from the ABCA and Directors on the ROM program. I think the other folks who got a ROM will support this.

 

Diane

[Lenajo]

Now thats interesting Diane. You told me when you were going through the ROM process that your were missing one ancestor. Guess you found the rest of it.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Yep. and I got in touch with German folks who helped me out and got in touch with the sire's breeder.

 

(Wendy- on a side note....what is the name of the dried vegie food mix that you had sent me many years ago for Kate. I want to get more of it as it was great)

 

Diane

[Lenajo]

Yep. and I got in touch with German folks who helped me out and got in touch with the sire's breeder.

 

(Wendy- on a side note....what is the name of the dried vegie food mix that you had sent me many years ago for Kate. I want to get more of it as it was great)

 

Diane

 

I have no idea. Do you know where Kate is?

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Yes. PG Goosedogs in CA. I saw her a couple of years ago and she was quite pampered. She managed to be in my lap during most of the cowdog trial (when I was not running). Still the sweet loving puppy that you sent over.