This Time Kato Bit Willow!

[M.L.]

Some of you may remember the issue with Kato (my husband's Husky mix) biting Odin (my husband's Husky) back in January which required $800 of emergency stitches. Well, last night Kato bit Willow (my BC)! It happened around 10 pm. I was reading and my hubby was playing around on his laptop and all of a sudden the two were going at it. Willow ended up with a puncture wound right between her eyes. It isn't that deep. I cleaned it out and it has since scabbed up. I called our normal vet already.

 

This is the FOURTH bite from Kato. He bit my aunt's German Shepard in the leg (deep puncture). Then Odin. Then Odin again when we went on vaction. The dogsitter had to take him to the vet for a torn ear. Now with Willow. I'm at my wit's end. Kato has been in for a vet check. He has been seen by a behaviorist. He has gone through obedience class. We keep the dogs separated when we are not at home. The torn ear with the petsitter was over a treat. The sitter thought Odin had eaten it, but apparently he hadn't. The sitter turned his back and Kato went after Odin and ripped his ear.

 

My dogs get into squabbles, but they have NEVER broken skin. I know that when you have 5 dogs fights are more likely to happen, but this is getting frustrating. Kato is a little wierd, but he isn't an aggressivev dog. These instances seem to happen out of the blue and without much of a discernible cause. Kato obvioulsly does not have any bite inhibition or something. Following is what I know (or think I know):

 

1. Kato NEVER ends up with even a scratch.

2. Kato breaks skin (doing pretty decent damage) almost every time there is a small squabble.

3. We have ruled out a medical cause.

4. Bailey, Willow, Ginger and Odin have gotten into small squabbles but they have never resulted in any broken skin.

5. There is never (except for the treat with the sitter) anything around such as bones, toys, food, beds, etc.

6. It has happened in our house, in my aunt's yard and at the sitter, so it isn't specific to one location.

7. We don't know Kato's background - he is from animal control. My husband adopted him before we were married and lived together in May of 2007. He is 2-3 years old. Probably closer to 2.

 

When do you call it a day and decide to rehome a dog? Or do we keep him and just wait knowing that it is most likely going to happen again? Do we muzzle him all the time? That doesn't seem like a great life. He is otherwise a great dog.

 

Any advice or suggestions? Thanks!

[JaderBug]

When do you call it a day and decide to rehome a dog?

 

If this sort of thing keeps happening (the fights) I'd say your answer is quite clear...

 

Or do we keep him and just wait knowing that it is most likely going to happen again?

 

NO!! Would you keep someone around if it was likely that they were going to keep doing the same thing again and again, and that it was 'likely' to happen again? You're not doing your dog victims any favors by keeping the offenders around. Protect your dogs before something terrible happens.

[M.L.]

NO!! Would you keep someone around if it was likely that they were going to keep doing the same thing again and again, and that it was 'likely' to happen again? You're not doing your dog victims any favors by keeping the offenders around. Protect your dogs before something terrible happens.

 

I know...I feel this way. But on the other hand my husband adopted this dog not knowing his background. Now WE are responsible for him. He is such a great dog in almost every other aspect. How do you just hand him over to someone else? And who will want to take him? We have to be honest about his behavior. I think he should be the only dog. He does well with children and is only around them supervised. But what if he decides to bite a child in the future? So that limits homes with younger children just in case it were to ever happen.

 

This is a tough situation!

[JaderBug]

Tough, yes, but unfortunately it looks like it's gotten to the point where it's necessary.

 

I don't know anything about rescues, any suggestions from those who do??

[kelpiegirl]

I think you may know. It sounds as if Kato would do better in a one dog household. it isn't fair to have one dog puncturing other dogs- if there are no known precursors- the dogs will just be in a constant state of tension.

 

 

Some of you may remember the issue with Kato (my husband's Husky mix) biting Odin (my husband's Husky) back in January which required $800 of emergency stitches. Well, last night Kato bit Willow (my BC)! It happened around 10 pm. I was reading and my hubby was playing around on his laptop and all of a sudden the two were going at it. Willow ended up with a puncture wound right between her eyes. It isn't that deep. I cleaned it out and it has since scabbed up. I called our normal vet already.

 

This is the FOURTH bite from Kato. He bit my aunt's German Shepard in the leg (deep puncture). Then Odin. Then Odin again when we went on vaction. The dogsitter had to take him to the vet for a torn ear. Now with Willow. I'm at my wit's end. Kato has been in for a vet check. He has been seen by a behaviorist. He has gone through obedience class. We keep the dogs separated when we are not at home. The torn ear with the petsitter was over a treat. The sitter thought Odin had eaten it, but apparently he hadn't. The sitter turned his back and Kato went after Odin and ripped his ear.

 

My dogs get into squabbles, but they have NEVER broken skin. I know that when you have 5 dogs fights are more likely to happen, but this is getting frustrating. Kato is a little wierd, but he isn't an aggressivev dog. These instances seem to happen out of the blue and without much of a discernible cause. Kato obvioulsly does not have any bite inhibition or something. Following is what I know (or think I know):

 

1. Kato NEVER ends up with even a scratch.

2. Kato breaks skin (doing pretty decent damage) almost every time there is a small squabble.

3. We have ruled out a medical cause.

4. Bailey, Willow, Ginger and Odin have gotten into small squabbles but they have never resulted in any broken skin.

5. There is never (except for the treat with the sitter) anything around such as bones, toys, food, beds, etc.

6. It has happened in our house, in my aunt's yard and at the sitter, so it isn't specific to one location.

7. We don't know Kato's background - he is from animal control. My husband adopted him before we were married and lived together in May of 2007. He is 2-3 years old. Probably closer to 2.

 

When do you call it a day and decide to rehome a dog? Or do we keep him and just wait knowing that it is most likely going to happen again? Do we muzzle him all the time? That doesn't seem like a great life. He is otherwise a great dog.

 

Any advice or suggestions? Thanks!

[Journey]

I see where you have 2 choices - you learn to deal with it, manage it and get a handle on it or you put him down. Sorry to be so blunt but how can you turn over a dog with a bite history? The liablilty is yours.

 

Karen

[Lenajo]

4 bite history, $800 worth of damage and bite types indicating little to no bite inhibition....that's not a rehomable dog.

 

People who can handle a dog like that already have a dog, or dogs. The experienced person with no other dog is rare indeed - some would say non-existant.

 

Even if you found that home, you are talking about total isolation - no visitors with dogs, no dog parks, no interaction at classes or events. That's not a life.

 

Deal with it/manage it, or put him down. Those are the only ethical options.

[Angie H]

And who will want to take him?

 

There are lots of people out there who prefer to be single dog families.

 

He does well with children and is only around them supervised. But what if he decides to bite a child in the future? So that limits homes with younger children just in case it were to ever happen.

 

A dog that bites other dogs has nothing to do with his/her tolerance of people or children or cats or stock, or fish, etc.... They do not transfer to each other...so unless there is something else you have seen, he may be ok with kids. (although my philosophy is that if the history is unknown, I do not place with kids...nor do I place nervous or timid dogs with kids)

 

Unless I missed a post, I don't see why this dog would be difficult to re-home

 

That being said, I do agree that you need to rehome him...it is going to be very difficult to manage keeping him separated from 4 other dogs and enjoy life together. Your other dogs deserve to live in the home without being in fear and if you think about it, it's not much of a life for Kato either if he has that many issues with the other dogs. It's like constantly being annoyed and on edge...like living with your EX!!

 

Also, there was a recent heated discussion about this very subject...I don't recall the title, but there are loads of opinions in that thread...search if you dare

[Lenajo]

yes, there are *lots* of people who want to own a dog who can and has caused serious damage to other dogs.

 

those same people would *never* prefer a dog they can have around other dogs, take to family gatherings with other dogs, and go to the park with.

 

They also never want to have another dog, and will always remember the warnings with this dog and prevent him from ever causing damage again.

 

somewhere, someone is hysterically laughing.

 

good grief. How sad it is when it's more politically correct to pass on a problem then it is to deal with it ethically yourself.

[M.L.]

Your other dogs deserve to live in the home without being in fear and if you think about it, it's not much of a life for Kato either if he has that many issues with the other dogs. It's like constantly being annoyed and on edge...like living with your EX!!

 

The thing is, the other dogs don't fear him. They *normally* all get along quite well. They sleep next to each other. They play with each other. Kato plays with Willow ever so gently, which is quite cute to watch. The other dogs don't avoid him or show aggression towards him. He also does not act aggressive towards them. I have Willow at work with me today and when I went home at lunch time to let the dogs out of crates to potty Willow greeted Kato like she normally would. There is no constant tension that I can discern between the dogs.

 

Odin didn't want any of the dogs around him after his stitches, but as soon as he healed he was fine with all of them, even Kato. The behaviorist has watched Kato and Odin interact and she saw nothing out of the ordinary. Our petsitter was a vet tech and currently works at the humane society. He often fosters and works with difficult dogs. He also didn't see any alarming behavior. I've been around dogs who are constantly posturing and sending signals to each other but that just isn't the case here. If there were constant issues and behaviors that indicated stress, fear or dominance, etc. this wouldn't be such a hard thing to deal with.

[M.L.]

Deal with it/manage it, or put him down. Those are the only ethical options.

 

If those are the only two options, we will deal with it.

[vanillalove]

Well, as others has said Kato is not a rehomeable dog. He obviously has issues with Willow, as you have stated in this thread and in your previous one and the advice I gave then, I will give now. You say that Kato plays "gently with Willow and it is really cute to watch", I'm sorry but it's not. It's not funny that Willow might make a "wrong" move when she plays and Kato might bite her again, or worse. You have said yourself that Kato breaks skin on other dogs every time in he gets in a squabble with another dog. Didn't you also mention in your last thread that Willow is scared in her own household? Willow deserves a home where she can be the happy, playful dog she is without worrying about another dog potentially killing her. My advice is that you rehome Willow. She is not aggressive towards other dogs and would be easily placed. Kato obviously has issues with Willow, maybe not *all the time* like you said, but I don't believe it should be your call to give Willow a tense environment to live where she is constantly on guard. She will be easy to place and she deserves that.

 

So when do you call it a day? Well, today.

[Shetlander]

I've been around dogs who are constantly posturing and sending signals to each other but that just isn't the case here. If there were constant issues and behaviors that indicated stress, fear or dominance, etc. this wouldn't be such a hard thing to deal with.

 

That is weird. Still, since Kato has attacked dogs four times, if you decide to keep him, then you need to keep him completely separated always from your other dogs. Otherwise, even if your dogs somehow aren't stressed, I think your nerves would be stretched waiting for the next fight and worrying about serious damage or even death. I would not allow Kato in the same room with the other dogs or outside in the yard with them at any time. He really does need to be an only dog within your house of 4 other dogs. Kato can not safely be part of the pack. Period.

 

Constant management is not an easy way to live, but I have known others who chose to live that way. And you need to bear in mind that even the best management is not 100%. There may (you can almost count on it) be some set of circumstances that lead to Kato getting in with the other dogs. Hopefully that would not lead to him attacking, but you will always need to accept that another serious attack is a consequence .

 

The fairly recent thread that addressed a similar situation is here:

 

dog biting other dog

 

This is an emotional topic. We all love all our dogs and there is no easy answer in this situation and none without pain. I was in a similar situation myself many years ago. I never want to experience that again.

[Shetlander]

My advice is that you rehome Willow. She is not aggressive towards other dogs and would be easily placed.

 

Yes, that is third option in addition to constant management or putting Kato down. The other four dogs could be rehomed and Kato could be an only dog in his current home. But even then, you will need to take significant precautions that he is never around other dogs and hope the precautions work.

[urge to herd]

Was the behaviorist you took Kato to a veterinary behaviorist, or a 'civilian' with behavioral training? If the latter, get thee to a veterinary behaviorist and inquire about medications.

 

Even with that said, Kato, from your description, appears to be totally unpredictable. If it were my dog, I'd give the vet behaviorist a shot, meanwhile keeping Kato separated at all times.

 

Good luck, I don't envy you this dilemma.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[Angie H]

yes, there are *lots* of people who want to own a dog who can and has caused serious damage to other dogs.

 

those same people would *never* prefer a dog they can have around other dogs, take to family gatherings with other dogs, and go to the park with.

 

They also never want to have another dog, and will always remember the warnings with this dog and prevent him from ever causing damage again.

 

somewhere, someone is hysterically laughing.

 

good grief. How sad it is when it's more politically correct to pass on a problem then it is to deal with it ethically yourself.

 

I am not trying to be politically correct, nor do I live in a fantasy world that believes "all dogs should be saved at all costs", etc. - I agree that there are circumstances when it is best for all involved, including the dog. I have been on the receiving end of folks that "pass on a problem" enough that I assure you that is not what I meant.

 

We sometimes have to euthanize and it is always difficult, no matter the circumstances - but we have never had to euth because a dog did not get along with other dogs. We do actually receive adoption applications that have single dog households and no plans for a 2nd dog or desire to participate in dog social events. Now, it may determine whether or not we can INTAKE a dog with those issues...depending on how full we are, etc. - but it is not because we would deem the dog un-adoptable, it's because we may not have a foster home available and the dog would not be able to be loose with the other rescues in the play yard.

 

Believe it or not, there really are people out there who have never taken their dog to a dog park, never logged in to a dog forum, never thought about taking them to a family event, much less have family that takes their own dogs to family events...there are people who enjoy having a dog that is simply a companion at home, for rides, or they make go for walks on leash (which sounds like Kato could do fine with).

 

Do they PREFER a dog like this? Of course not, but sometimes the dog does have other qualities that are attractive enough that they are willing to deal with those issues since they aren't AS big of a problem in a single pet home.

 

On the flip side of that - there are a lot of great dogs out there with no issues that need homes too.

 

From the sounds of things, it is not important at this point anyway, as the OP does not want to euth or re-home Kato.

[M.L.]

From the sounds of things, it is not important at this point anyway, as the OP does not want to euth or re-home Kato.

 

We would rehome Kato if we thought the situation was a suitable one and if the person/family taking Kato fully understood this biting issue and did not plan on adding more than one dog.

 

Well, as others has said Kato is not a rehomeable dog. He obviously has issues with Willow, as you have stated in this thread and in your previous one and the advice I gave then, I will give now. You say that Kato plays "gently with Willow and it is really cute to watch", I'm sorry but it's not. It's not funny that Willow might make a "wrong" move when she plays and Kato might bite her again, or worse. You have said yourself that Kato breaks skin on other dogs every time in he gets in a squabble with another dog. Didn't you also mention in your last thread that Willow is scared in her own household? Willow deserves a home where she can be the happy, playful dog she is without worrying about another dog potentially killing her. My advice is that you rehome Willow. She is not aggressive towards other dogs and would be easily placed. Kato obviously has issues with Willow, maybe not *all the time* like you said, but I don't believe it should be your call to give Willow a tense environment to live where she is constantly on guard. She will be easy to place and she deserves that.

 

Kato has bitten three different dogs, Willow included. This is the first bite to Willow. So it isn't specifically an issue with Willow. And I ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT REHOME WILLOW. Willow is a timid dog who is afraid of many things. Kato is not one of those things. The things she is afraid of are smoke/steam (could be my bowl of steaming soup), lightening, loud snapping noises, screaming children, etc. She is highly reactive to certain dogs, especially when on leash. There are some dogs she goes nuts around. She had severe separation anxiety and is much better now but far from perfect. Did I mention she was afraid at home in another thread? I will have to look back at the context. Willow is also adopted from animal control and came with MANY issues. She still has some of them but we have come a long way. She is normally very happy and content in our house. She plays, cuddles, interacts and does what she does. She isn't unhappy, mopey, scared in our home. If I'm eating a bowl of steaming soup or there are fireworks going off, well, yes she gets scared and goes and hides. Otherwise she is fine.

 

I have never had interaction problems with my three BC's. When I got married hubby moved in and brought his two dogs. Kato is the problem, not the other dogs.

 

As for Kato playing with Willow - it is cute. He is very gentle with her. It took Willow almost 2 years to begin interacting with the other dogs in a playful manner. It took her almost a year to chew on a bone for pete's sake. Trust me, I watch them closely when this playful interaction is going on. I'm never more than two feet away.

[vanillalove]

Well, it does sound like you're going to try to make this situation work. That other thread posted has excellent suggestions for maintaining a schedule where one of the dogs has to be separated at all times. For example, if Kato is in a certain room, the other dogs cannot be. Baby gates work well, if you know that they won't jump over them. Same goes for outside, if they usually make outside trips all together, this will also need to stop. It's difficult to accept, but with management it can work. I wish you the best of luck!

[M.L.]

Didn't you also mention in your last thread that Willow is scared in her own household?

 

I looked through my threads from my first posting about the fight between Kato and Odin until now and I didn't see anywhere that I mentioned Willow being afraid. If I said that before any of these fights happening it was probably in regards to one of her issues.

[M.L.]

For example, if Kato is in a certain room, the other dogs cannot be. Baby gates work well, if you know that they won't jump over them. Same goes for outside, if they usually make outside trips all together, this will also need to stop. It's difficult to accept, but with management it can work. I wish you the best of luck!

 

Thanks for the wishes of luck! During the day the dogs are separated in their crates. Sometimes we will rotate and let one of them spend the day out of the crate while the others are crated. I guess I'll have to look into a gate for the kitchen to keep Kato separated while we are home. I was also considering a soft muzzle - one of the ones that lets him eat and drink by he can't open wide enough to bite to wear while we are home. I'll have to look into that some more - I'm really not familiar with the different muzzles and their effectiveness.

[juliepoudrier]

I've been around dogs who are constantly posturing and sending signals to each other but that just isn't the case here. If there were constant issues and behaviors that indicated stress, fear or dominance, etc. this wouldn't be such a hard thing to deal with.

As someone who lives with multiple dogs, and specifically with two who posture and otherwise annoy one another at times, I have to say I'd rather have the posturing because then at least I have warning that something may be about to happen and I can put a stop to it. If either of them were into random stealth attacks on the other, my life would be pretty miserable trying to make sure one didn't take me unaware and go after the other and do damage.

 

I don't have a good answer for you. If it were me, I'd keep the dogs separated, even if most of the time they seem to play well together. I would be too worried about the risk of Kato suddenly again attacking one of the others and sooner or later eventually doing way more damage than what any have experienced so far. A veterinary behaviorist, if you aren't already using one, would be my other suggestion--and of course following the behaviorists' instructions to the letter.

 

Good luck.

 

J.

[nancy in AZ]

Just a thought, but does Kato get ample exercise?

[Tassie]

Bearing in mind that we can't see what you're seeing ..... seems to me that a/maybe the major problem is that Kato does not have bite inhibition, so that an interaction which might not otherwise end up in a bite, does with him. As you've seen with your other dogs, even a squabble over a treat should not result in any significant damage assuming the dogs involved have appropriate bite inhibition skills.

 

So, I totally agree with the suggestion of others that you get a respected veterinary behaviorist in to look at the situation, and maybe ask if there is any way you can work on developing bite inhibition in Kato. Such consultations wouild be useful either if you keep Kato, or in assisting with a decision about whether rehoming is possible/appropriate. To me, this step would be essential, especially since it seems that you ahven't been able to identify a specific trigger or triggers.

[mbc1963]

No expertise here, just my personal experience.

 

My dog was a street dog for 18 months to 2 years. When I first brought him home, the mere sight of another dog would send him into a fearful, reactive state, which meant growling and lunching. Early kindergarten was spent hiding under my chair, far from the other dogs (most of whom were puppies!), and even so, he had to leave early for the first 4 or 5 sessions, because his tolerance was really low.

 

At this point, he is great with other dogs who are controlled, even within a few feet of him. With friend-dogs, he'll walk happily off leash and play. With stranger-dogs, meetings are still tense, and if I allow too much "in your face" time, my dog will snarl and snap. I take each meeting very carefully, and I know the signs of a bad meeting. We haven't had a real skirmish in a year - and that last one was on a day when I knew he wasn't feeling well, and someone brought out chicken when there was a crowd of dogs standing by. (My fault, yes, for not being more watchful and not getting him out of there when I saw he was "off." Lesson learned.)

 

One dog household here? Absolutely. The energy it takes to manage walks when there are strange dogs around is enough for me - I wouldn't want to have to manage my home that way because I brought in a second dog.

 

BUT... my dog is absolutely fine in the one-dog life he lives. Managing him doesn't inconvenience me badly. If a family event happens and there are going to be strange dogs there, I just don't bring him. I also don't let him go into "dog park" situations where dogs are off leash and just playing wildly - it's not for us. Those management techniques are simple and unobtrusive.

 

When I brought Buddy home, I signed a contract saying I would deal with his issues - whatever they might turn out to be - and I did just that. So, I'd say rehoming a dog who has dog-to-dog issues isn't necessarily a lost cause. LOTS of the dogs I see on Petfinder have the little "no other dogs" symbol on their listings - I assume that symbol is there because the rescuers have seen some evidence of snarkiness, and want to forewarn potential owners. (My dog came with no such warning - but I quickly learned!)

 

Again - that's just my experience with the rehoming of a dog who had some aggression towards other dogs. Not a terrible experience, and the outcome is a really loving and obedient dog who loves his life.

 

(I will note that, for all his reactivity, my dog does seem to have good bite inhibition. Another dog came away with a scratch in one scuffle, but I don't think my dog has ever bit down hard enough to puncture. I'm not sure what my life would be like if I didn't have faith in his bite-control.)

 

Mary

[Dixie_Girl]

I'm wondering if Kato really is the problem. The reason being that he can play with dogs, and seems to get along, and then, 4 times now has attacked for "no apparent" reason. Well, what's not apparent to us, is very apparent to some dogs. I have learned this with Jackson and Skip. If Jackson was more reactive than he is, Skip would either be dead now or have been seriously injured. It took almost a year of constant watching to find out why, when Jackson would be lying under the bench, and Skip lying next to me at the table, Jackson would all of a sudden start some low growling. Why Jackson would act like he was going outside, then, with ears laid back, turn around and come back. Skip never growled at Jackson, seldom if ever curled his lips at Jackson, but it was the body posture and "look" on his face that did it. Jackson just isn't the kind of dog to willingly fight. So he growls, I yell at Skip and all is fine. The dogs are left alone loose in the house, sometimes for 8 hrs. and they have never fought. But, where Jackson is a very grounded and confident dog, Skip is scared of noises in the house, (banging pots and such), is not confident, and where Jackson enjoys being with me every second of every day, Skip NEEDS to be with me. Big difference. All this is just to say that, if Jackson was more prone to fighting, we would have the same situation. Skip and Jackson also play well together, in fact sometimes if Skip gets really scared of something and can't run to me(as I am the cause of the scary thing) he will run to Jackson! Of course, Jackson does not understand and will growl at him! So, before putting all the blame on Kato, I would do a little investigating to see if other dogs are not sending Kato fight or flight messages. Just because Kato chooses fight, does not make him the bad dog. JMO, of course.