dog biting other dog

[marm]

thanks in advance for patience- this is apt to be a bit long.

 

some house set up first:

 

normal household: 3 adults, 2 dogs (below), 1 cat

household from mid june to mid july: 5 adults, 1 toddler, 4 dogs, 1 cat

 

 

on 6/28-29/08, about 2 am, our husky/shepherd (arwen, age 6) and our bc (mabel,age 2.5 and my avatar) got into it over some food that was left out. the bc was on the losing end, needing to make a run in the morning to the emergency vet clinic to have a huge chunk of her left shoulder and muscle wall put back together, along with treatment for puncture wounds, all done by the husky/shepherd. the bc has been on the end of fights before where she's been puncture wounded, but never anything to this level.

 

following the surgery, pain meds, antibiotics etc...suture removal was a little over a week ago. she's been fine since the day after the surgery, or about 36 hours after the incident. she's been giving the big dog a WIDE berth when playing etc... which seems perfectly logical to us. we thought the aggravating factor in this was the increased stress in the household from the additional people and dogs.

 

our house is back to "normal" now since the other 2 adults, toddler and 2 dogs left early last week.

 

about an hour ago, i put both girls (yes, same gender) on their runs so they could have outside time so i could run errands. i no sooner put them out and headed to another part of the house when i heard yelping and screaming from the backyard. i ran to see what happened, only to find the bc AGAIN a victim of the husky/shepherd.

 

i have just returned from the vet (thank god not having an emergency clinic run this time) where i left my bc so she could be sutured up on the inside of her leg where a chunk of flesh is now missing. there are several puncture wounds on the outside of her leg (same leg as the earlier attack). the vet says the puncture wounds just need to stay clean. we'll get homegoing instructions in about 2 hours when i can go pick her up.

 

the problem now: what do we do about the husky/shepherd who is obviously showing her dominance and aggression in a manner she has never done before? as i stated, they got into it a couple of times before when playing mostly, but NEVER to this level, and to have it happen twice w/in a 3 week time period is uncalled for. this was not over food as they don't get fed but once per day, and that's in the evening.

 

our trainer never saw the husky/shepherd, only the bc, and she's now "retired" as the petsmart store she worked out of has closed. i'm thinking of asking the vet to see if prozac or something along those lines might be appropriate protoccol for the husky/shepherd.

 

looking for some suggestions/answers!

 

~marm

[grinning.girl]

first and foremost I would keep them separated.

 

feed them in separate rooms and not leave any food down.

 

work on seeing what the trigger is for these attacks.

 

and I hate to say it, but if one of my dogs injured the other like that more then once, *I* would seriously be considering having the attacker re-homed in a more suitable living situation (i.e. a single dog home)

[marm]

first and foremost I would keep them separated.

 

 

thanks. however.... keeping dogs who live together in a house, with no crating, separated is easier said than done. the bc keeps her distance from the husky/shepherd, going out of her way to get to things via rather circuitous routes (pretty funny in actuality to watch this in action). when they go outside it is to do their business. the only time they are outside on their runs for long periods of time is when we are out with them, so for the most part, they have the run of the house.

[PSmitty]

Wow. If my border collie was on the losing end of fights that involve sutures, missing flesh and vet visits, you can be damn well sure I'd *find* a way to keep them separated. I wish you luck, but I've heard some ugly stories about bitch fights. I know people who have bitches that don't get along even after years, and must constantly be vigilant with them, and yes, that means the dogs are never left unattended together. That also means being watchful and stopping stuff from escalating before it gets to the point of bloodshed. You owe it to your bc to protect her from this other dog. I'm afraid without intervention it's only going to get worse.

 

Whether or not you can ever have a harmonious home remains to be seen. If it were my dogs, beyond keeping them strictly separated, I'd have the husky seen by a behaviorist (not the same as a Petsmart type trainer).

 

ETA: I agree with grinning girl. I don't think I could live in a constant state of hyper-vigilance, so if it were me, I might consider rehoming if things don't improve. Even with improvement, you'll *always* have to be aware of their past history and know it could happen again.

 

Good luck.

[MrSnappy]

thanks. however.... keeping dogs who live together in a house, with no crating, separated is easier said than done.

 

Yeah okay fine then - your BC will keep getting the shit kicked out of her by your Shepherd.

 

Them's your choices, mate. You're asking for a magic solution that doesn't exist. Twice in three weeks one of your dogs has seriously damaged the other one. Now you know they CANNOT be left alone together unsupervised.

 

End. Of. Discussion.

 

RDM

[grinning.girl]

if they have run of the house. that is the first problem.

 

I would get some crates and start crate training. I believe that all dogs should be crate trained, even if they don't use them on a daily basis.

 

 

and of course its going to be hard to keep two dogs separated in a house, but people do it. try using baby gates. or an X-pen.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

So I haven't had too much experience with multi dog households, nevermind ones who don't get a long but, I would definately try your best to keep them under close supervision if you can't keep them separated. I would also take the husky/x to the vet to see if there are any medical issues that would be creating her new found aggression and then talk to the vet about reccommending a behaviourist. If they aren't spayed, I would also take this into consideration as well...

 

Good luck!

julie

[marm]

thank you all for suggestions.

 

we have had both spayed so that's a non issue.

 

yes, we are having bitch fights- the older one is most assuredly showing her aggression to the younger one. if keeping them separated would do it, i need suggestions on how to do this as our house really doesn't lend itself well to that.

 

feeding: their food bowls are in the same area, but they typically don't eat together. the bc wolfs her food and leaves while the husky/shepherd guards her food, sometimes making us take it up and present it to her another day (NOT another time. you don't eat when it's offered, you lose).

 

gating: we have baby gates we use to keep them out of places. are you recommending we corral one in one area, and the other in another area? i can see this being a tough thing as again, they were NEVER crate trained, and this is akin in some ways to crate training.

 

behaviourist versus trainer: what is the difference and how does one find someone reputable?

 

i welcome personal email responses. don't remember how to get my email to you guys without posting it online however! help here?

[kelpiegirl]

Can you imagine what your BC is going through- never knowing when the other dog will get her- always fearing for her life? I can't imagine how horrible that is. Either you keep them separated, or rehome, or pts the aggressor. It's inhumane to allow that other dog access EVER to the BC. We all love our dogs here, but your head has to win out on this. The damage created is not minimal- the other dog will kill your BC if given the choice.

[Angie H]

thanks. however.... keeping dogs who live together in a house, with no crating, separated is easier said than done. the bc keeps her distance from the husky/shepherd, going out of her way to get to things via rather circuitous routes (pretty funny in actuality to watch this in action). when they go outside it is to do their business. the only time they are outside on their runs for long periods of time is when we are out with them, so for the most part, they have the run of the house.

I think you should make some changes in your home setup - like TODAY. They need their own crates - your border collie needs it for her own safety and to be able to relax without looking over her shoulder 24/7. Your husky/shep needs one in order to allow for better control of your household.

 

It is your responsibility as their owner/leader/caretaker to make the rules AND to ENFORCE them and keep everyone safe. It sounds like you need to get a hold of this situation fast, specifically you need to take control of your husky/shep girl, before it costs more than a trip to the vet.

 

I have a foster BC (female) that has been with me since early March and has been in rescue since OCTOBER for this very reason...she is not trustworthy with other dogs. I can have her out with "some" dogs, as long as I am there managing, but she is NEVER left alone with one of the other dogs. She is waiting for a single dog home without small children who has border collie experience. She is an absolute delight to be with, but she is just not a social butterfly...she has to be managed. I think you have to decide if you are up for managing this situation; if you are not, you may have to consider re-homing one of your dogs for her safety.

 

Just my 2 cents...I would go to Walmart RIGHT NOW or wherever you can purchase dog crates in your area and start there - do not have them out at the same time and let your poor BC heal in peace. I would be afraid my BC would end up dog aggressive over this....

 

Good luck to you - I hope you find a way to keep her safe.

[twmoose82]

As all4paws said I would worry about the BC becomming dog aggressive from this experience. You BC is obviously fearful of your other dog and although her trying to avoid the other dog may look cute it is probably very stressful for the BC. If she can never relax around this dog she may not be able to relax around others and could possibly become fear aggressive. Then you will have 2 aggressive dogs on your hands.

 

This is also sounds very stressful for you so good luck. I found my trainer (Tucker Pups in Chicago) by looking it up on yelp.com. Yelp.com is a service that has real people rating their experiences at everything. I would recommend looking up some trainers in your area on that site and checking out some of the reviews.

[Laurae]

the bc keeps her distance from the husky/shepherd, going out of her way to get to things via rather circuitous routes (pretty funny in actuality to watch this in action).

 

Are you flippin' kidding me? You think your border collie's attempts to avoid another major damaging attack is "pretty funny"? You don't seem to be taking this very seriously. HELP HER or rehome her. Period.

[Debbie Meier]

I have some bad news, if you don't seperate them and keep them seperated except at times you can be hyper vigilant and monitor them, the mix is going to kill the border collie. I have the same deal with two of our dogs, I watch them real close, the last attack the aggressor waited for me to slip on my watch and then went in for the kill. That was the end of it, Bandit is in a run or crate, Indy in the house/yard or vice versa, one always gets crated for the swap, I want to add, there have never been severe wounds, but they are not far from it. I know that some would say that they don't want their pets to live that way, but it is best for both parties, along with my check book, until Bandit can get rehomed. And it's certainly not fair for Bandit to be hunted, I have full convidence that Indy would kill him if the opportunity arose, he won't challange my authority, but he sure knows when he is just outside of it.

 

Deb

[MaggieDog]

Separate Separate Separate - baby gates would be fine if they are respected, but if you think either dog might try and jump them, start crate training. I have lived in a house with two bitches who didn't get along and it can be done. We made sure there was a sign on the door to the yard saying which girl was outside, gave each their own area, and used barriers neither would challenge (doors and 5' high gates in our case, babygates were too short). Each girl was fed completely seperately, the aggressor got extra obedience training and was taught a solid leave it as well as being put on a "work to earn" (aka NILIF) program. With all that said, after the first few fights they could never be together again - the aggressor would immediately go after the other girl once within range of her and she'd leave puncture marks.

 

In the few clients that have come to me with issues like this I have found that upheaval in the house seems to trigger the confrontations that create the bitch fight issue, but the issues continue even after the upheaval has ceased. One case seemed to be ameliorated by putting all dogs in the house on the same work to earn program, obedience training the aggressor, and reducing stress within the household in general (create routines, daily obedience work and exercise, separate feeding, etc.); the aggressor also appeared to be guarding one of the humans so we worked on resource guarding protocols as well. The other case is still in progress with all of the previously mentioned tactics as well as daily time tethered in the same room as each other (safe distance apart) and the humans with special attention/toys/treats they only receive when the other dog is present - in this case the dogs are only together during this time and separated at other times. I've not gotten a progress report back yet on this second case, so I'm not sure how things are working out.

 

The key to a positive outcome in both of the above cases was timely consultation with an experienced dog behavior professional. The first case is milder, but took several weeks to see improvement because the owner waited several months after the first fight to seek help. The second case was seen by me within 10 days of the first fight and 2 days of the second fight and I expect that things are working well already.

 

For one on one help (which is an absolute necessity in these cases) see if there is a CPDT (Certified Pet Dog Trainer) or Veterinary Behaviorist (Vet with extra study in behavior) in your area. The APDT keeps a list of members and CPDTs on their trainer search at www.apdt.com, so that's where I would start.

[stockdogranch]

Ok, to keep them separated, which is what you MUST do, 24/7: If one is outside in the runs, the other can be in the house hanging out. Use your doors inside the house: put the inside dog behind one, let the outside dog in and put in another room behind a closed door, then let the other one out for outside time. Now the one who was outside has indoor time and can cruise the house. Rinse, repeat. Feed in separate rooms behind closed doors. NEVER let them be together again.

 

I went through this for 7 years with 2 males, one of whom was neutered. They were just about the same age. The neutered one was jumped suddenly one day by the intact one (after having gotten along since puppyhood for about 3 years), and from that day on, the fight was on. The neutered one would have not previously started anything, but after being unfairly jumped, the aggression was then from both sides.

 

Was it fun? No. Was it a pain in the ass? You bet. Did we occasionally screw up and forget to close a door? About once every 18 months. And then it was UGLY to get them separated, and the humans involved usually got torn up in the process. BUT, for the most part, we existed OK like that for 7 years. Each of the two dogs got plenty of time with the people in the house and outside, and each had some time to run and play with the other dogs in the household that they could get along with. Actually, it was the intact male who had issues with several of the other dogs who lived here at the time--he could only be with one of the females. So he had more isolation time since he was the bully. I was glad when he and his owner (my ex) left.

 

Even though I now have 7 dogs who all get along, I still feed in separate rooms behind closed doors. Helps keep pleasant dogs pleasant,

 

A

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Here is a good link on crate training. The key to this would be introducing it slowly and making it a happy place for them to be. Every dog needs it's own "den" to get away from it all. Keeping them separate via crates or baby gates is for their own good and they will get used to it. I know of a few multi "bully breed" homes that crate and rotate and they make it work just fine.

 

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/our_pets...e_training.html

 

As far as behaviourist vs. trainer thing this was the best definition I could find. It holds pretty true I think. These days you tend to find more trainers that understand animal behaviour and train accordingly, so I would suggest the likes of those a Petsmart ect. are what you'd want to stay clear of. The best way to find someone to help you would be to do a search in your area for all trainers/behaviourists and go watch them. Most places will let you sit in on classes and watch them work with their class. In your case I would suggest that you look into ones that will come to your home and watch the dogs interact with each other and help you understand the "pack dynamic". Ask for references if you have to.

 

"An animal trainer is someone that either trains animals, or teaches a person how to train their own pet to do a variety of things. In this case, the trainer is actually training the person - teaching the person the skills and techniques they need to train their animal.

 

An animal trainer can work in a variety of settings - they can work at animal shows, in animal shelters, have their own business, work for the entertainment industry, training animals for movies, television, work training service dogs (e.g.; seeing-eye; hearing-ear).

 

There are no educational standards or licensing requirements for animal trainers. There are training programs, internships, and apprenticeships. There are also voluntary certifications.

 

Animal behaviorists often hold advanced degrees in animal sciences and behavioral principles. Most have Ph.D.'s. An animal behaviorist will often deal with behavior problems in animals (e.g.; separation anxiety, compulsive behaviors, etc)."

 

Seriously consider taking the husky to the vet to make sure she has nothing wrong with her first.

[mbc1963]

I know this is not an equal situation, because I live in single-dog household, but...

 

My dog loves some dogs, lives peacefully with others, and has had a few all-out fights with a couple of others. Whenever we're around ANY dog he's ever had a serious disagreement with, I make sure Buddy doesn't have to go face-to-face with the other dog. If both dogs are leashed and under supervision, I'll walk alongside, letting Buddy know that he can be calm and nonconfrontational with the other dog. But if the other dog is off leash, or if Buddy is looking tense at all, I don't put him in that situation. When Buddy has had one "real" fight with a dog, he fully expects the fight to resume at any moment - even if two years have passed! I don't know what causes the initial dislike, but the distrust and wariness (or need to prove dominance) doesn't go away.

 

The idea of one of these dogs actually coming to live in my house makes me shake. I couldn't take it!

 

I think that the others are right: either you need to keep the dogs separate all the time, or rehome one of them.

 

Good luck. It's a horrible situation.

 

Mary

[afrancis]

...while the husky/shepherd guards her food, sometimes making us take it up and present it to her another day (NOT another time. you don't eat when it's offered, you lose).

 

I really think that there are issues here with your husky/shepherd beyond your bc. Sounds like she rules the roost at your house and needs a much firmer hand. But I think this is moot now since the bc has been on the SERIOUS losing end of the stick twice. I agree with others that hyper-vigilance, separation, behaviourist consultation which may or may not lead to re-homing the aggressor is what's needed. For your bc's sake, you've got to take the bull by the horns before she winds up dead.

Ailsa

[marm]

Are you flippin' kidding me? You think your border collie's attempts to avoid another major damaging attack is "pretty funny"? You don't seem to be taking this very seriously. HELP HER or rehome her. Period.

 

we are trying VERY hard to get a handle on this situation. we are consulting with the vet, i have posted on this board. we are trying, in a big f'ing way to make changes in our house in less than a 5 hour window since the last incident occurred.

 

the quote you pulled from my initial post was not intended to be a humorous (ha ha ha) comment, but rather a commentary on the extremes the little one will go to avoid the big one, and that they are rather funny AT THE TIME. we know why she does that, and are sympathetic to the cause.

 

thank you to whomever it was for the trainer versus behaviourist description. i have gotten a name from the vet and intend to talk with that person tomorrow, as it is now 5:25 pm EST and i just got back from the vet with the bc and dealt with her wounds.

 

are we not taking this seriously? get off it. yes we are! very much so. there are 3 adults living in this house who are scared for both dogs. we are doing the best we are able, and seeking advice from ones who appear to have had more experience than us in this type of encounter. give me a break here!

[Debbie Meier]

Give YOU a break, sorry for trying to make sure that you understand that you are in a life or death situation that should not to be taken lightly. You are beyond the point of going to a behaivorist and just getting it fixed or giving a magic pill, maybe over time, a big maybe. At this moment, your only hope is to seperate, I wouldn't even care if the dogs hated being in crates, they will get over it, my guess is that the BC may actually look to it as relief. Would you rather that we all sugar coat it and tell you just tap the aggressor on the nose with your finger to get her to divert her attention to you and then feed her a treat? We could, and you could do that, but you'll be right back asking for more help when the next injury occurs maybe next time it will be the aggressor charges through the screen door to attack the border collie. Or maybe after you go to the ER after being harpooned accidently getting in the way of the fight. I've been there, four puncture wounds to my calf, two of them completely through and connect about 1'' below the surface. I'm just lucky that the dog realized he was hooked into me and released, instead of ripping, would have been a he!!l of mess.

 

 

The fact that you are looking for answers and advice is good, but it is also an indication that you did not realize just how bad it was.

 

Deb

[Cool Dave]

Hmmm, I'm not going to give any advice but rather ask you to think of 'what if another situation'. You have a dangerously aggressive dog. You think she just happens to think 'attack BC is OK, but human being is a definite no no'? May seem that way to you but I assure you under the right (wrong) situation, your shepherd mix would easily bite a human. Perhaps your child? Or perhaps a neighbors child? If that ever happens she'll probably be put down. At least in Calif she would.

[MrSnappy]

Cool Dave, I think you are posting unhelpful nonsense. Children are not dogs, and all dogs are not this one border collie, and the OP's GSD X has a problem with one border collie, not with children or other dogs. Okay? Don't incite baseless panic please.

 

I believe the OP is concerned and also confused. It IS very confusing when your dog starts attacking its housemate after two years of harmony. It's not easy to hear that your 6 year old dog is a dangerous criminal.

 

IMO, barring any veterinary issues discovered in the oldest dog, I vote for rehoming the border collie. The other dog appears to be instigator, and the BC is probably miserable, as well as being much more adoptable. And it is not going to be easy (or possible) to rehome a 6 year large mixed breed with a history of putting holes in her housemate.

 

Does she deserve to die because she is aggressive with one dog? Probably not. Does the BC deserve to live in an environment where she is not being hunted by a dog who wants to kill her? Absolutely.

 

Does this suck so much for the OP? I have no doubt it does. I wouldn't want to make that decision, that's for sure.

 

RDM

[MaggieDog]

Cool Dave - dog-dog aggression is VERY VERY VERY different from human aggression, so please do not extrapolate with something you likely do not understand completely. I have a dog-dog reactive dog who has had interbitch problems before, but who is also a *therapy dog* and she works with both the elderly as well as special needs kids; her reaction to other dogs in no way crosses over to her interaction with people and I've seen the same lack of crossover in a *lot* of other animals. yes some dog-dog aggressive animals can be human aggressive as well, but just because one type of aggresion is present does not ensure the second will be as well.

[stockdogranch]

^^^ Yup. The two male dogs I talked about earlier had no problems whatsoever with any people at all. They knew better. Their issue was between the two of them. So, as others have suggested, I would not go into a sudden panic about the Husky X attacking small children. As grandma used to say, "Let's not borrow trouble!"

 

A

[vanillalove]

I agree with RDM on this, I believe you are very concerned, and it does take a little while for it to sink in that after a peaceful household, there is disruption in the harmony. We can only further suggest crates, it may take a little while, but I'm sure you would rather have a few days of whining in a crate then more trips to the vet, am I right? Feed them in different rooms if you can, or in their new crates - obviously separated. Also, don't let them go outside together.

 

Basically don't let them have time together, ever. This is going to need a ton of effort from all the people in your house, and if you find that it's unmanageable, I think it would be safe to say that you should consider rehoming the Border Collie. She does deserve a home where she isn't scared for her life. I know you understand that, but sometimes the hardest things are the best thing too.

 

I wish you the best of luck and hope you can figure out a manageable solution.