Reputable breeders in my area?

[Smokjbc]

Now, I do understand what you're saying, and the importance of Open level for sheepdog trialing, what about someone who has no intention of doing sheepdog & herding work?

>>Allie

 

 

I think the point that several people are trying to make is that by breeding these dogs with Open level work or competition, the "real" border collie is being preserved and, hopefully, improved. If you are going to buy a pup instead of going to rescue, I strongly feel that only breeders who strive to produce authentic, quality border collies should be supported- not a breeder that is simply flooding the market with ordinary dogs. I don't mean any slight to anyone's pet- I mean ordinary as a border collie genetic being- not as someone's great pet. There are more than enough quality working litters out there and far too many rescue dogs that would make excellent companions and sports dogs to encourage any puppy buyer to seek a breeder that is successful in marketing instead of a breeder that is successful in producing quality workers.

[AllieMackie]

Now, I do understand what you're saying, and the importance of Open level for sheepdog trialing, what about someone who has no intention of doing sheepdog & herding work?

>>Allie

I think the point that several people are trying to make is that by breeding these dogs with Open level work or competition, the "real" border collie is being preserved and, hopefully, improved. If you are going to buy a pup instead of going to rescue, I strongly feel that only breeders who strive to produce authentic, quality border collies should be supported- not a breeder that is simply flooding the market with ordinary dogs. I don't mean any slight to anyone's pet- I mean ordinary as a border collie genetic being- not as someone's great pet. There are more than enough quality working litters out there and far too many rescue dogs that would make excellent companions and sports dogs to encourage any puppy buyer to seek a breeder that is successful in marketing instead of a breeder that is successful in producing quality workers.

 

And while I understand that people are adamant about keeping border collie lines strong, I don't understand how a border collie whose offspring does sports isn't an "authentic" border collie. I really don't understand it.

 

I'm not intending to breed my dog. I intend on spaying/neutering it. I'm not supporting any breeder that is "flooding the market", I'm supporting a breeder that produces the kind of dog I'm looking for. I'd be concerned about perfect herding/working lines if I was breeding, but I'm not.

[SoloRiver]

The point of Border Collies is that they are livestock working dogs, the way that the point of a Chihuahua is to be small, or the point of a Belgian Sheepdog is to be black. A dog cannot be bred for other than working ability and still be a good Border Collie. What you want is a sport dog, that does not necessarily have to be a Border Collie.

 

I do not consider the sport bred dogs to be Border Collies. I call them Sport Collies. You cannot change the selection regime and still have the same dogs. They may be black and white, they may be smart and fast, and maybe that is good enough for you. But as time goes on they become farther and farther from what Border Collies are meant to be. Maybe you don't care, but I do, which is why I would never buy from a sport breeder. Border Collies are one of the precious few real dogs left out there. I will not be party to diluting what they should and hopefully always will be -- real working dogs. Those brains didn't come from nowhere. They come from continued selection for working ability. Breeding dogs for sport is basically breeding for the lowest common denominator. Why settle for mediocrity?

 

Breeding for working ability is not a guarantee that the breeder is responsible, but you cannot really be breeding Border Collies unless you are REALLY working them.

[Smokjbc]

And while I understand that people are adamant about keeping border collie lines strong, I don't understand how a border collie whose offspring does sports isn't an "authentic" border collie. I really don't understand it.

 

I'm not intending to breed my dog. I intend on spaying/neutering it. I'm not supporting any breeder that is "flooding the market", I'm supporting a breeder that produces the kind of dog I'm looking for. I'd be concerned about perfect herding/working lines if I was breeding, but I'm not.

 

 

It is the intent behind the breeding that is in question- not what the offspring are used to do. I think that has been fairly clear here- if a breeder is concerned with the sport market- they are most likely not concerned with breeding quality border collies in an authentic manner and should not be supported if that is their primary goal. I don't personally care what you do with your dog- you could paint it purple and make it wear a tutu for all I care. The activity you choose to do with your companion is not what is in question here. I cannot speak for others, but what I hope for is to encourage those who value, admire and enjoy this breed to make purchasing, adopting, and breeding decisions that will help ensure that the breed remains exceptional. If you do not understand why breeding for working ability ONLY makes these dogs what they are- then I doubt very much that you can make a decision that is both beneficial to the breed and to your own desires for a companion.

[AllieMackie]

It is the intent behind the breeding that is in question- not what the offspring are used to do. I think that has been fairly clear here- if a breeder is concerned with the sport market- they are most likely not concerned with breeding quality border collies in an authentic manner and should not be supported if that is their primary goal. I don't personally care what you do with your dog- you could paint it purple and make it wear a tutu for all I care. The activity you choose to do with your companion is not what is in question here. I cannot speak for others, but what I hope for is to encourage those who value, admire and enjoy this breed to make purchasing, adopting, and breeding decisions that will help ensure that the breed remains exceptional. If you do not understand why breeding for working ability ONLY makes these dogs what they are- then I doubt very much that you can make a decision that is both beneficial to the breed and to your own desires for a companion.

 

Fair enough.

[AllieMackie]

The point of Border Collies is that they are livestock working dogs, the way that the point of a Chihuahua is to be small, or the point of a Belgian Sheepdog is to be black. A dog cannot be bred for other than working ability and still be a good Border Collie. What you want is a sport dog, that does not necessarily have to be a Border Collie.

 

I do not consider the sport bred dogs to be Border Collies. I call them Sport Collies. You cannot change the selection regime and still have the same dogs. They may be black and white, they may be smart and fast, and maybe that is good enough for you. But as time goes on they become farther and farther from what Border Collies are meant to be. Maybe you don't care, but I do, which is why I would never buy from a sport breeder. Border Collies are one of the precious few real dogs left out there. I will not be party to diluting what they should and hopefully always will be -- real working dogs. Those brains didn't come from nowhere. They come from continued selection for working ability. Breeding dogs for sport is basically breeding for the lowest common denominator. Why settle for mediocrity?

 

Breeding for working ability is not a guarantee that the breeder is responsible, but you cannot really be breeding Border Collies unless you are REALLY working them.

 

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

[stockdogranch]

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

 

A great response when there's no other reasonable, logical reply.

 

It's Melanie's opinion, as well as that of those who truly care for the future of the breed,

 

A

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Bred true to the breed and not to the want of the masses

 

 

Diane

[AllieMackie]

I really don't know what you guys want me to say. I'm of a varying opinion than your own. That's no reason to be rude, opinionated, and/or snarky. You guys are really proving that when people hide behind the internet, they are a lot more rude.

 

You're all making me sound like I'm ruining the border collie, just by wanting one to do sports with. You really are.

 

That's all I can really say. I don't want to start a fight, I never did want to start a fight, but you guys keep throwing them out. I tried to be polite about my personal opinions, and they've been thrown back in rudeness.

 

That's about it. I really don't want to argue.

[vanillalove]

As someone else who is relatively new to the breed, I will try to explain to you. I have spoken with many people on these boards and done a lot of research since I decided to add another Border Collie. I am not going to be working my dog (who knows though, right? Maybe I'll go over to the dark side and dabble in some lessons ) I have been fascinated by the breed since I can remember; the speed and agility, the mesmerizing stare, the athleticism, the drive, the devotion to the things they do and their owners, etc. You want another BC as well, so you know why you love the breed. They are a breed of their own.

 

This breed, that the well-educated and the newly-educated such as myself, shares a love for, came to us through working these dogs at a high level and breeding for that working ability. People see the Border Collie differently than JUST a working dog: Smart, quick learning and focused for obedience, super fast, agile, durable and driven for agility and other dog sports, devoted and always ready to play and learn for a great companion. These dogs are one and the same when it comes to the Border Collie, as all of these characteristics that we love the breed for came from one thing only; being working bred. Working and breeding for working makes the dogs the breed we love, that breed of their own. The working ability bred into these dogs made them the dog that someone decided to try in dog sports and watched them reign in the ring. Working bred = The sports Border Collie you want. Border Collies would have never dominated in the ring if they weren't working bred to begin with. The working ability makes those brains!

 

When I looked at breeders like the ones you've listed previously, I thought "Hey, these dogs are advertised for the things I want to do, great I've found my next dog!" But these dogs are not worked, so while you may be finding a great sportsmen, you are not finding a good Border Collie. And like I said before, you know very well the "Border Collie" you want, so you better find yourself a working breeder to get that dog. So, you are not "ruining the breed" by wanting to do sports with your dog. Many of the people on the boards do the same thing! They don't mean to say you are ruining them, so much as the breeder. Do what you want with your dog once you get it, you know? But get it from the place it should be, a breeder breeding for the sole purpose of making good working dogs. Following?

 

I'm not an oracle at this stuff and many of the people on the boards can provide you with great advice, PM some and you'll get a lot of insight if you're willing to learn, I just wanted to share with you the opinion I've gathered since entering this forum, as a fellow newcomer to the breed. I mean, I friggin' started this thread and I've completely changed my game since then!

 

As of right now, I'm first and foremost looking for rescue, I've sort of abandoned the idea of getting a pup. But, if I do decide to, for whatever reasons, I will be looking for breeders and watching trials to find a working bred pup, because that working bred pup will be that "all-around" dog, my sportsmen, my companion, whatever I choose! That's the Border Collie I adore and they'll be stable. This sounds so dumb of me, but I never realized how being bred for a high level of work made the Border Collie that I fell in love with.

 

The sports aren't ruining the breed, they are just one of the many amazing things BC's can excel at. Working bred made them this way though!

 

The people on these boards may come off as snarky, but they are passionate. They are trying to preserve the dog we love, and we should support them. If it wasn't for people like them, the Border Collie we love wouldn't exist.

 

This is getting long! I am not sure how to sum this up or anything. But I hope that helped, a little? I feel like you can try to understand from someone who was in the same boat as you, and not realized that I was "wrong" being in that boat but that I could find a dog that was more right for me.

 

Kayla

[vaporflowers]

You're all making me sound like I'm ruining the border collie, just by wanting one to do sports with. You really are.

 

You're misunderstanding.

 

BREEDING for sports is what we think is ruining the breed, not participating in sports.

 

I think agility, competitive obedience, and flyball are great sports, and I participate with my border collies! But whether an agility dog, a family pet, or a herding dog, the reasons we like border collies are because they were bred to be stock dogs. Those traits didn't come out of thin air, they were a result of selecting for stock dog work, and that's what makes them such versatile companions.

 

In order to keep the breed as we know it, they should do the work they were originally intended to do (which is herding).

 

To breed for anything else means you start selecting for traits that change the breed. If you want a border collie from a breeder, get a "real" one who is bred to the standard of herding; those are the dogs that have the traits you would expect. A breeder who breeds for sports is likely producing dogs who move further and further away from not only the dog's intended purpose, but the border collie traits and personality too. A good herding dog will be good at herding, agility, jogging, whatever task you designate; that's the true border collie.

[juliepoudrier]

AllieMackie,

No one is making you out to be the enemy. I made this comment earlier (and others have made it since then):

The big, big, big issue, and it's been said before, but I'll repeat it here for new people like you, is that people who love border collies for sports find them to be great sports dogs because of the years of specific purpose-driven breeding that went in to making them what they are today. That purpose-driven breeding was for stockwork. It so happens that the combination of traits that makes them great stockdogs also makes them superior for sports. What many people don't get is that if you stop the selection pressure for the stockwork, then the unique combination of traits that makes them superior achievers at their purpose (stockwork) --and also just happens to make them excellent sport prospects--will start to drift toward something else, and when it drifts far enough, people will find that the dogs that used to make such great sports prospects probably no longer do, because the unique combination of traits brought about by constant selection pressure for a high-level of stockwork no longer exists.

 

I will clarify that by purpose-driven breeding, I mean breeding exclusively for a high-level of stockworking ability. That breeding is what made the dogs what they are--dogs who also happen to excel at sports or just being companions.

 

Consider why you want a border collie. Are you looking at dogs from conformation breeders? If not, why not? If I can presume to answer that question, I would guess that in general you don't see a bunch of strictly conformation-bred dogs out excelling in the venues in which you'd like to participate. You see sport- and workig-bred dogs. Have you wondered why you don't see a lot of strictly conformation-bred dogs in those sports venues? Could it be because the folks breeding conformation dogs have been breeding for *something else* unrelated to the dogs' original purpose (i.e., stockwork)? The answer to that question is yes. The difference between the folks breeding for conformation and the folks breeding for sport is that the change will be a little more gradual with the sport breeders because they are at least trying to retain some parts of the package of what makes a good stockdog. The conformation folk, on the other hand, are breeding exclusively for looks and have not concerned themselves with the abilities that are important to stockwork or sports. It took a very short time for the conformation-bred dogs to become something else--they may look like border collies, but they certainly don't *act* (i.e., work) like border collies. By not keeping working ability at the forefront of their breeding programs, conformation breeders have essentially created a different dog.

 

If you extrapolate that dilution process to sport breeders, can you see how breeding for something other than the "whole package" can result in a different sort/breed a dog a few or many generations down the line?

 

What people have been saying here is that stockworking ability--the traits that make the dogs what they are and what attract you and others who wish to do sports--is there because of selection pressure in every generation to keep it there. It's a complex set of genetics. There is no "stockwork gene." When you make breeding choices based on other criteria, even if some of those criteria include some of the traits found in purpose-bred working dogs, you will slowly change the breed characteristics over time. It might not affect you or others right now, but by supporting such breeding practices you are encouraging them and so are having a hand in changing the breed over time.

 

That's all anyone's trying to say. No one cares what you do with your dogs. And I believe you'll make whatever choice you think is right for you. But for the people who use these dogs daily to manage on their farms or who even just keep them for the sport of trialing, that comlex set of traits that defines the border collie is very important to us. That's why you see the passion you see here (and what you're interpreting as snarkiness).

 

I don't know how else to explain the breeding dilemma to you. The breeders you talked to aren't bad people. I'm sure they're breeding well-adjusted and lovely dogs. And in the first several (oreven 10) generations, you might not even notice the genetic drift that's taking place. But just because you can't see it over the short term doesn't mean it's not happening, and as can be seen with numerous other breeds, often no one notices the breed has completely changed until it's too late to go back and fix things. The working border collie breed is one of the few that has managed to escape this drift away from purpose, although there are lots of breeders out there engaging in just those sorts of breeding practices. What folks here are trying to do is get you and others who are new to the breed to stop and take the long view. That is, to consider what effect a purchasing decision you make today could have on the breed as a whole several generations down the line. I know it's not really human nature to consider the long-term ramifications of decisions made here and now, but some of us still try to influence others that way.

 

J.

[Denise Wall]

I'll add one more thing that's not often thought about, or said, but is a harsh reality. Every puppy bought from a breeder not truly breeding the border collie as it should be bred, takes a place from a puppy that *is* breed the way border collies should be bred. The more this happens, the less properly bred border collies are produced, and the less there are. Over time, the true working border collie gene pool becomes smaller and smaller.

 

Breeders are surely responsible for their breeding decisions. But buyers drive the market. Go look for a truly amazing working border collie working stock, or find a video of one, or read about one. I mean something that makes you proud to want *this breed.* Then imagine that your future other than work bred border collie pup is taking the place of a dog like that down the road. Not trying to make anyone feel bad. Just trying to make a point.

[Sue R]

You guys are really proving that when people hide behind the internet, they are a lot more rude.

 

People here have been honest and amazingly patient at trying to explain what constitutes responsible breeding (and the reasons for it) of the Border Collie. They have stated over and over that there is nothing wrong with using Border Collies for something other than stockwork as long as they are not bred for those purposes (be it sports, color, conformation, pets, whatever). And they are people who care about this breed not only in the present but in the future (which is where breeding now till lead in time).

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You're all making me sound like I'm ruining the border collie, just by wanting one to do sports with. You really are.

 

No, you want to buy from a sports breeder and apparently nothing else will do. I'm still not sure why - do you have plans for World Domination in agility or blowing the flyball scene wide open?

 

One of the things that puts me off about the sports world is that there is great pressure to bring a person to the point where I WANT is more important than making about "something I do with the dog I have." I want more titles, I want to progress, I want to run with the World Team, I want my team to run faster and get regional points - even, yes, I want a dog I can get to Open with.

 

When you buy from a breeder, you are supporting what that breeder does. In other breeds, breeders who ignore the standard, ie, what defines the breed, and just breed whatever the heck they want, are called names that would not ring pleasantly in the ear of these fine people who neurologically stimulate their puppies and socialize them with fish and French teachers with mustaches. You'd give a lot of flack to people who support such breeders with their eyes wide open - "But I WANT, I WANT - silver Labradors would go so well with my furniture - these King Shepards (sic) make great watchdogs - goldendoodles don't shed!"

 

To illustrate this concept further - have you ever participated in a product boycott? When a company profits from shady or unethical practices, it's common to boycott products from that company. You can send e-mails until you burn up your computer, spend all your time on the phone, and write letters until your fingers fall off, but the only thing that really communicates to a producer, no matter how large or small, is the bottom line.

 

And the only way that happens is when one person decides to inconvenience themselves for the sake of principle. And then another, and another, and another.

 

One person's decision to buy a pup doesn't "ruin a breed" - of course not. But by making a decision one way or another, you are casting a vote in favor of what that breeder does. And against, as Denise pointed out, what other breeders do.

 

So yes, when you favor a sports breeder over a working breeder, you are one tiny bit of the force that is pushing down breeders like the Henrys, and the breeder of Laura Carson's pup in the video, and the Wilsons and Knoxes, and Amanda Milikin, and Denise and Robin, and Elizabeth, and many others (please don't be offended if I didn't mention your name) who put the time and effort and money into producing sound, talented, useful dogs that have the potential to be everything a Border Collie has always been - from active clever companion, to partner in sports competition, up to top Open trial dog.

[Shoofly]

You're all making me sound like I'm ruining the border collie, just by wanting one to do sports with. You really are.

 

No, you're ruining the breed by supporting someone who breeds for the wrong reasons and produces dogs that are border collies in name only. No one gives a hoot what you do with the dog once you have it. But you, and people like you, are what keep those kind of breeders in business. It's a simple matter of supply and demand.

[Maralynn]

If Border Collies bred for work can do it all and produce the total package, why bother breeding for something that may not?

 

I originally got a BC for farm work as I have sheep. I have switched gears a little and started training my second BC for wilderness search and rescue. Incidently, dog #2 was purchased from a working breeder and I bought him after seeing his potential for stock work, and had seriously considered pursuing trialing with him. But after I decided to do try doing SAR with him, I knew that he should have the drive to do it because I had seen it shine through with sheep work. I had also seen his confidence that, when pushed around by a cranky ewe, allowed him to get right back into work.

 

If I hadn't seen those qualities in him through stock work, I never would have started training him in SAR. He was a bit timid due to lack of socialization - the breeder had taken him back after he wasn't getting treated right in his first home. He didn't have much of an interest in playing with toys - for SAR work the "reward" is playing with the victim. But I knew he should have alot of the right pieces to the puzzle because of his breeding.

 

There is nothing wrong woth early socialization and clicker training. The problem comes in where those buzz words are replacing sound working genetics. The genetics may or may not be there. The proof is on the trial field or the honest to goodness working farm/ranch.

 

Honestly, I think the best thing you can do is to attend some trials or even arrange for some lessons with a well trained working Border Collie, because I doubt much of what is being said here is going to make much sense to you unless you see it and experience it for yourself.

[mosstheboss2000]

Breed true to the breed not the masses,

 

What about breeding in MASSES!

 

Here is a little story for you all....

Mr B. (we will call him) is a Border Collie Breeder, he has been breeder dogs for years. Only proven dogs of course.

While he doesn't do it himself he buys proven dogs for his breeding program and works then at home on his livestock, he believe in survival of the fittest. All his puppies are raised out in his Barn, kept clean and healthy. Although not getting much socialization or interaction outside of that.

So Mr B. has a recent litter, Dad is a great working dog that he imported then sold out west as a stud dog(bred him just before he left) Mom is a import also, a proven trial/working dog.

So Mr B. Sells off his puppies with a advertisement Puppies ready to work! Proven working lines imported from Scotland.

Most of these pups are sold to 'pet' homes while a few to local farmers looking for chore dogs.

One of the dogs is sold to a woman in her late 70's looking for a nice companion to do therapy work with her... OH say Mr B. I breed only the best dogs, proven working dogs.

So Mrs P (we shall call her) takes homes her beautiful new puppy....

Initially this puppy is worried about the new world, he hasn't been anywhere really except he warm safe haven in the barn.

Mrs P doesn' worry for she has bought herself a puppy from 'proven parents' who are always ready to work....

18 months down the road Mrs P realizes to her dismay this dog will never be the therapy dog she dreamed of. Skittish reactive and undersocalized he is returned to Mr B.

Mr B. then starts this dog on sheep, teaches him some whistles and puts him immediately back up for sale for the original puppy price. So along comes a lovely family with 2 small kids... OH a Border Collie they say... YES says Mr B. and I breed only the best dogs, proven working dogs. I've already started this boy on sheep and whistles and he shows great promise.

So the lovely family take home their treasure to show off to the world. About a week later their joy has quickly turned to dismay when he won't stop barking at the kids if they run by or want to say hi to him, nobody is enjoying having him around. So back to Mr B.

Mr B. then decides to put this dog back up for sale... around the same time he gets back a sister from the same litter who also was sold to a pet home and just no working out.

Finally after a couple of weeks Mr B. decides that there is something just not right with this dog and takes him in to be euthanized at the vets. He tells the tech about the dogs story, the vet tech says well why don't you call rescue? Well good breeders don't give their dogs to rescue and they would neuter him taking away his working dog spirit...(yes this was actually said)

Luckily for this dog Mr B. did have a heart and decided to give the dog up to rescue... OR maybe he just thought about the $200 bucks he save not having to euthanize the dog?.......

So yes I immediately broke that working dog spirit by neutering him

 

MEET CODY!

This is a true story one of way too many....

[Root Beer]

I really don't know what you guys want me to say. I'm of a varying opinion than your own. That's no reason to be rude, opinionated, and/or snarky. You guys are really proving that when people hide behind the internet, they are a lot more rude.

 

You're all making me sound like I'm ruining the border collie, just by wanting one to do sports with. You really are.

 

That's all I can really say. I don't want to start a fight, I never did want to start a fight, but you guys keep throwing them out. I tried to be polite about my personal opinions, and they've been thrown back in rudeness.

 

That's about it. I really don't want to argue.

 

Hi Allie,

 

I'm another whose Border Collies are companions and sport dogs, and my perspective on many things is different from a lot of folks here.

 

So, this is just some food for thought.

 

My original Border Collie, Speedy was sport bred.

 

Dean, who I did adopt as a rescue, was bred from working parents. I don't know how "good" his parents are because I don't know exactly who they are, but I do know that they are active working sheep dog Border Collies.

 

When it comes to what I want in a sport dog, the dog from working parents beats Speedy (who is my heart dog and I am not putting him down in any way) by a landslide.

 

It's hard to explain why this is so, but it's like Dean's "mental package" is more "there". Speedy is no less a Border Collie, but based on the differences I've seen between them in what their "drive" is like, how the "off switch" operates, and the difference in the type of "biddability", I'm inclined to seek out working bred Border Collies in the future.

 

Of course, there are differences between individual dogs to take into account in this example, but there is definitely more to it than that in this case. Dean isn't perfect, by any means, but I am positive that his breeding makes him a better sport dog based on what I see every day.

 

That's not to say that if I were meeting dogs to adopt and I "clicked" with one of unknown background, or one known to be sport bred, I wouldn't adopt him or her, it's just to say that I would probably look for dogs to meet, especially, that were known to be bred from working parents, if possible.

 

I'm not trying to tell you what to do or be opinionated or snarky, but just to share the perspective of a fellow "companion/sport" Border Collie person.

[kelpiegirl]

Thanks for this. I think it underscores that there are ways to raise litters, so that the pups can be normal, sane adult dogs. Not going to embroil myself in this topic, but I will say that Cody is one very HANDSOME dog.

 

Breed true to the breed not the masses,

 

What about breeding in MASSES!

 

Here is a little story for you all....

Mr B. (we will call him) is a Border Collie Breeder, he has been breeder dogs for years. Only proven dogs of course.

While he doesn't do it himself he buys proven dogs for his breeding program and works then at home on his livestock, he believe in survival of the fittest. All his puppies are raised out in his Barn, kept clean and healthy. Although not getting much socialization or interaction outside of that.

So Mr B. has a recent litter, Dad is a great working dog that he imported then sold out west as a stud dog(bred him just before he left) Mom is a import also, a proven trial/working dog.

So Mr B. Sells off his puppies with a advertisement Puppies ready to work! Proven working lines imported from Scotland.

Most of these pups are sold to 'pet' homes while a few to local farmers looking for chore dogs.

One of the dogs is sold to a woman in her late 70's looking for a nice companion to do therapy work with her... OH say Mr B. I breed only the best dogs, proven working dogs.

So Mrs P (we shall call her) takes homes her beautiful new puppy....

Initially this puppy is worried about the new world, he hasn't been anywhere really except he warm safe haven in the barn.

Mrs P doesn' worry for she has bought herself a puppy from 'proven parents' who are always ready to work....

18 months down the road Mrs P realizes to her dismay this dog will never be the therapy dog she dreamed of. Skittish reactive and undersocalized he is returned to Mr B.

Mr B. then starts this dog on sheep, teaches him some whistles and puts him immediately back up for sale for the original puppy price. So along comes a lovely family with 2 small kids... OH a Border Collie they say... YES says Mr B. and I breed only the best dogs, proven working dogs. I've already started this boy on sheep and whistles and he shows great promise.

So the lovely family take home their treasure to show off to the world. About a week later their joy has quickly turned to dismay when he won't stop barking at the kids if they run by or want to say hi to him, nobody is enjoying having him around. So back to Mr B.

Mr B. then decides to put this dog back up for sale... around the same time he gets back a sister from the same litter who also was sold to a pet home and just no working out.

Finally after a couple of weeks Mr B. decides that there is something just not right with this dog and takes him in to be euthanized at the vets. He tells the tech about the dogs story, the vet tech says well why don't you call rescue? Well good breeders don't give their dogs to rescue and they would neuter him taking away his working dog spirit...(yes this was actually said)

Luckily for this dog Mr B. did have a heart and decided to give the dog up to rescue... OR maybe he just thought about the $200 bucks he save not having to euthanize the dog?.......

So yes I immediately broke that working dog spirit by neutering him

 

MEET CODY!

This is a true story one of way too many....

[Shoofly]

Breed true to the breed not the masses,

 

What about breeding in MASSES!

 

Here is a little story for you all....

 

What exactly is the point to this? The problem isn't the breeding on that dog, it was the raising, by Mrs P.

[jdarling]

What exactly is the point to this?

 

What I got out of it is ... no need to go to sport breeders and pay thousands of dollars for one of their "temperament tested" "socialized" "tested for everything under the sun and then some" puppies ... and you don't have to go to breeders of "good working dogs" for their highly unsocialized barn raised pups ... you can go to rescue and pick one up instead.

 

Was I close? LOL!!

[Sue R]

Yes, Moss, being a breeder of "working" Border Collies does not automatically make one a good breeder or an ethical breeder (or a good person or an ethical person).

 

There are just as many bad apples in the working Border Collie world as there are in the dog world elsewhere (and in the world in general). The difference is that the honest, down-to-earth breeders who work their dogs to prove their breeding worthiness, do their best to make the best breedings possible, socialize reasonably, and place their pups/dogs in suitable homes to the best of their ability, are the people who will maintain the breed for future generations who need good working dogs.

 

But the basis for breeding Border Collies should be one thing - suitability for stockwork (which will cover aspects of intelligence, biddability, soundness, health, stamina, temperment, etc.). Without that, you won't be breeding Border Collies, you won't be contributing to the future of a great working breed, and you will be taking the breed in a different direction from what makes it truly unique and great.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

What a lovely little story. Let's trot out the story of every shady breeder and every poorly raised working bred pup that ever made it into rescue, and that will prove that working breeders suck and the future rightly belongs to the sport breeders, long live 'em.

 

Hmm. Or maybe it just proves that there are lots of working breeders who make bad choices. I'm sure there are none in the sports world who do that.

 

It says nothing to prove or disprove the point that we continue to make, that breeding Border Collies right, must start with training dogs to work livestock.

 

ETA: I've had many pups that were "born in a barn" and although it's true that handling can help a sound temperament really thrive, one must still start with the best genetics possible for the breed. Many hundreds of generations of Border Collies were born in barns and managed to become popular as companions, sport partners, and light duty working/trial dogs (and service dogs), long before the fancy breeders came along with their "puppy socializing" expertise.

 

But one doesn't need to choose these days. Most working breeders I know raise their pups in or close to the house and can hardly keep their hands off the pups to let them spend time with mom! It's very amusing to see hard-bitten farmer and trial trainer types go all googly around new litters.

[juliepoudrier]

What exactly is the point to this? The problem isn't the breeding on that dog, it was the raising, by Mrs P.

I agree. And the second family was also partly to blame for apparently not training the dog (or doing their research beforehand). We can all trot out good and bad examples of breeders of all sorts, but it doesn't change the fact that driving the genetics away from the work is going to be bad for the breed.

 

J.