Reputable breeders in my area?

[mjk05]

Either

 

Seriously, why do we want to have border collies?

 

OP and anyone who is thinking about getting a border collie, if you want a dog as a pet, to do agility with, and maybe the odd weekend of working sheep, you can either:

 

1) get a rescue. If you look carefully, it has a good chance of being good at agility, and it MIGHT work sheep, enough that you can learn a bit about it and enjoy the activity. You can get a pup, and with the right upbringing it is likely to be a perfect pet. You won't have any issues with the morality or ethics of your choice on forums like this, or anywhere else.

 

2) get a sports bred dog. It has a good chance of being good at agility, the pet aspect probably depends on how carefully you choose your breeder and your expectations + training, and if it has recent working breeding it might work sheep- even reasonably well, in some cases. You'll either have to keep your head down about your choice on this sort of forum, where sports breeding isn't popular (for the reasons listed very thoroughly above), or just pretend it is working bred, or just be up front about the fact that the "border collie as a working sheepdog" issue doesn't bother you.

 

3) get a working bred dog. Like the 2 previous options, you may have to do some searching, but there are plenty of responsible working sheepdog breeders around who will sell to pet/sports homes occasionally. It has a good chance of being good at agility, and of being a good pet (again, if you pick the right breeder and do your bit in training etc), and it hasx a far better than average chance of being good at working sheep.

 

So you just need to assess what aspects of border collie ownership are important to you, how much you care about the maintaining the breed as a working dog, and then make your choice.

 

I know why I want a border collie. What's the problem here?

So what are your reasons?

[vanillalove]

Well when I originally posted this thread, I was in the thinking that I wanted a pup, for an active companion to fit my lifestyle as well as sports for fun and exercise for both the dog and I, that is what it should be about anyways, I'm not looking to be the next WC. After receiving more than amazing advice, I converted my decision to rescue as I believe I would be more suited to them, and them to I. I have almost 99% abandoned the idea of getting a pup but in the instance that it works out better to buy from a breeder I would only look for working bred. I was not educated in what to look for in a breeder for a Border Collie, even though I felt I had done a lot of research until I was enlightened by the lovely people here. I am fully confident in how to go from here and looking for working bred pups or saving a life through rescue, that way I will have a dog that meets my needs, and I will be confident in knowing I have met theirs.

 

The previous pages of posts have been in response to AllieMackie, I am no longer looking for a pup as my primary choice and I know now what breeders to go to, if that be my road of choice.

 

This thread may seem confusing for someone who just popped in, I originally started it, but after changing my mind against getting a pup, the thread disappeared until AllieMackie needed the same advice and brought the the thread back to life.

 

I have a BCX, I know I want a purebred BC, and I am confident in that and how to go from here. As for what aspects, I love every aspect of the breed. Bottom line. And I am aware that in order to get the complete Border Collie, the athlete, the drive, the devotion, the quirk, the speed, the agility, need I go on? We know why we love the breed, anyways, in order to get that Border Collie, the real Border Collie, it would be working bred. Of course, as stated before I am not looking for a pup anymore as my first choice. My first choice is rescue now.

 

I don't really feel like I need to prove why I want a BC, I am confident in myself and the research I have done. I don't mean for that to sound snarky, haha, it's just this thread is no longer pointed towards me as I have accepted all the advice given and am going on from here with it. (You can look back for my very long post which explains my series of how I started out looking for a BC and was looking in all the wrong places until I ended up here, to let you in on where I am coming from.)

[mjk05]

Cool! I hope AllieMackie makes the same choices.

 

There's been a lot of very thorough and intelligent writing on sports-vs-working breeding in this thread. But really, all the sensible logical explanations of why sports breeding is bad for the border collie are kind of pointless if the people hearing the explanations don't value the border collie as a working breed.

 

I'm sure its possible for pet or sports breeders to produce good natured, stable, sound dogs with off-switches for the pet + sports market. So arguing that sports breeding = bad temperaments/bad structures/thousands of dogs in rescue isn't that convincing. Similarly, no-one can argue that working breeding = neurotic, poorly structured dogs that end up in rescue. It may happen, but its not necessarily so. In fact, as we've heard, good working breeding aims to produce dogs with good, trainable natures that are safe with the kids and quiet and undemanding when not actually working (which is the majority of a working dog's life).

 

And you can't blame working breeders or conformation breeders or sports breeders for all the dogs in rescue. Each case of a dog in rescue differs, and responsibility may lie with the breeder, for producing a hard to live with dog or not placing pups carefully or not taking dogs back, the owner, for having the wrong expectations or choosing the wrong dog or not training it properly or not returning it to the breeder, and/or fate, for turning up circumstances that no-one could control.

 

Its a bit like the conformation breeding debate- I really dislike it when we all start in on "Barbie collies" being ugly or useless or whatever. I don't particularly like they way they look, and I do think they are becoming less athletic in structure, but there are some nice natured, pretty-if-you-like-that-sort-of-thing, intelligent, talented Show BCs around. Some even work sheep. They aren't bad dogs... they just aren't really border collies, for me.

 

That's the issue. If a border collie is, by definition, a working dog for you, then this is a really important issue, because you need to breed for working ability to get it in any consistent fashion.

 

But if you really don't care about the sheepdog bit of the border collie breed, apart from the historical interest, and you just want a border collie because they have a cool athletic image, or they are really attractive, or they are great sports dogs, or you just like the way they look, all the arguments above are wasted.

 

Personally, I agree with SoloRiver. Yep, AllieMackie, in theory a program of sports breeding could produce some lovely dogs, but for me they just aren't border collies.

[vanillalove]

Exactly my thoughts now. I took the time to realize that the breed I love exists solely because of being bred for work at high levels. Without that, we would not have these boards, we wouldn't have had all our lives changed because of these dogs.

 

The Border Collie you see dominating in the agility ring, or obedience, or dock diving, etc, was created by working. The Border Collie who devotes their entire life to their owner, that passion, was created by working. They are all the same dog, and they would not have been so if people didn't breed for work. Take SoloRiver's example of Dean and Speedy's comparison when it comes to sports. It puts it all into perspective.

 

"But if you really don't care about the sheepdog bit of the border collie breed, apart from the historical interest, and you just want a border collie because they have a cool athletic image, or they are really attractive, or they are great sports dogs, or you just like the way they look, all the arguments above are wasted. - mjk05" Personally, I disagree with this, because I feel like if you want a Border Collie at all, whether it be for sports, companionship, etc, you should care about where they come from, regardless, you know? I feel like it's important for someone to care about what made the dog they say they love.

 

I will not be working my next dog, as of right now, but, if I happen to get a pup, it will be working bred (because of all the things that it instills in the dogs, all the things I mentioned before that we love about the breed.) It just wouldn't be a Border Collie, otherwise.

 

Goodluck to AllieMackie, I hope you try to understand this paradigm as a way to look at BC's.

[Bo Peep]

When breeding sport to sport dogs, it will bring down the border collie standard almost as fast as the AKC. You just won't have the same dogs anymore.

I have been quoted on other things I've said BUT this is the quote I want to stand out.

 

 

 

Also, we all love our dogs, but I think if you want an agility dog, a pet, an obedience dog, whatever, you should preserve the breed and only buy from the best working homes. I doubt that anyone that didn't know me would sell me a working border collie for a service dog, but so far- he's been great!! If sports is your venue, then spay and neuter your dogs. If you purchase a working bred dog, it WILL succeed in any sport. There is no reason to go to a "sport dog breeder". I think my feelings are stronger on this than AKC vs. working dogs because you can actually "see" the difference. I will zip my lip now and let Allie do as she pleases. Sometimes, there is no changing minds, but I think she is now headed in the right direction.

[AllieMackie]

So what are your reasons?

 

I want a focused, intelligent dog that has the drive to work, and work hard. I want a dog that will be my companion in competing for flyball, agility, disc dog and possibly obedience/dock diving. And, on top of all that, I want a dedicated companion, and I've found all of that in border collies.

 

And I don't want to hear "oh, you'll find all that in a working breeder". I'll say once again that I'm currently looking at working breeders, so you can stop telling me why I'm bad for wanting a dog from a sport breeder. I'm just still trying to figure out why, necessarily, the sport breeders are bad. I still think they fill their own niche, and I know quite a few owners of sport-bred dogs that adore their dogs, and the dogs are just what they were looking for.

[1sheepdoggal]

I want a focused, intelligent dog that has the drive to work, and work hard. I want a dog that will be my companion in competing for flyball, agility, disc dog and possibly obedience/dock diving. And, on top of all that, I want a dedicated companion, and I've found all of that in border collies.

 

And I don't want to hear "oh, you'll find all that in a working breeder". I'm just still trying to figure out why, necessarily, the sport breeders are bad. I still think they fill their own niche, and I know quite a few owners of sport-bred dogs that adore their dogs, and the dogs are just what they were looking for

 

 

Maybe you dont want to hear you'll find all that in a working breeder, but think about this.

Before there were sport breeders, before there were conformation breeders, even before there were breeders that bred soley for a well rounded pet quality dog, there were working breeders. Thoses are the folks that brought forth, and maintained all those wonderful qualities about the breed, that you just talked about wanting in a dog. Sport breeders didnt mold this breed, conformation breeders didnt, and Lord knows, puppy millers didnt perpetuate any of the qualities that you speak so highly of appreciating and wanting in the breed. Working breeders did, and working breeders will maintain those qualities, where as others wont. I dont think anyone is saying that sport breeders are bad, in as much as they are saying that sport breeders will not, through breeding for other purposes maintain the high standards of the breed, again, that you say you want in a dog. Thats all any of us want in the breed, is to maintain the breeds integrity. Will a sports breeder really maintain the integrity of the breed? I think not. And nitch? Why, if the working bred collie is an all around dog, and is capable of doing any job its put to, is there even a need for a sports breeder to fill a nitch thats for hundreds of years, had already been filled by the working dog breeder.

[notailabigail]

They're filling their own niche, and it doesn't HARM the dogs.

 

I just don't get it. Agility, flyball, disc...they are all games. They were invented as a way to have fun training your dog. How can somebody who wants a dog to play games with see all of those dogs in rescue and in shelters and not even consider adopting one? Why does one tell oneself they *need* a dog that is "bred" to play a game? No, that dog that is filling its "niche" is not itself being harmed but there are a hell of a lot of other dogs that are killed for no good reason every.day. Why not save one of them? I really don't understand.

[AllieMackie]

I want a focused, intelligent dog that has the drive to work, and work hard. I want a dog that will be my companion in competing for flyball, agility, disc dog and possibly obedience/dock diving. And, on top of all that, I want a dedicated companion, and I've found all of that in border collies.

 

And I don't want to hear "oh, you'll find all that in a working breeder". I'm just still trying to figure out why, necessarily, the sport breeders are bad. I still think they fill their own niche, and I know quite a few owners of sport-bred dogs that adore their dogs, and the dogs are just what they were looking for

Maybe you dont want to hear you'll find all that in a working breeder, but think about this.

Before there were sport breeders, before there were conformation breeders, even before there were breeders that bred soley for a well rounded pet quality dog, there were working breeders. Thoses are the folks that brought forth, and maintained all those wonderful qualities about the breed, that you just talked about wanting in a dog. Sport breeders didnt mold this breed, conformation breeders didnt, and Lord knows, puppy millers didnt perpetuate any of the qualities that you speak so highly of appreciating and wanting in the breed. Working breeders did, and working breeders will maintain those qualities, where as others wont. I dont think anyone is saying that sport breeders are bad, in as much as they are saying that sport breeders will not, through breeding for other purposes maintain the high standards of the breed, again, that you say you want in a dog. Thats all any of us want in the breed, is to maintain the breeds integrity. Will a sports breeder really maintain the integrity of the breed? I think not. And nitch? Why, if the working bred collie is an all around dog, and is capable of doing any job its put to, is there even a need for a sports breeder to fill a nitch thats for hundreds of years, already been filled by the working dog breeder.

 

Why did you cut out the ONE LINE in the middle of my quote saying what I'm trying to get people to currently understand, and makes everything you wrote about void?

 

And I don't want to hear "oh, you'll find all that in a working breeder". I'll say once again that I'm currently looking at working breeders, so you can stop telling me why I'm bad for wanting a dog from a sport breeder. I'm just still trying to figure out why, necessarily, the sport breeders are bad. I still think they fill their own niche, and I know quite a few owners of sport-bred dogs that adore their dogs, and the dogs are just what they were looking for.

 

I'll say once again that I'm currently looking at working breeders

 

I'll say once again that I'm currently looking at working breeders

 

I'll say once again that I'm currently looking at working breeders

 

I Am Looking At Working Breeders For My Dog. I Am Not A Sports Breeder Fanatic. This Is Getting Ridiculous.

[AllieMackie]

Aaaand my last post was too snarky for my own liking. 1sheepdoggal, I apologize. I'm starting to get frustrated, so I'm taking a step back.

[KCKeller]

Ok, I think I've seen enough of what’s going on in this thread to get the jist of both sides. I would like to point something out to those in this thread, all of them, about the nature of these dogs and the comments you are making.

 

Before I do, however, I want to preface my statement with some qualifications. Firstly, I am a breeder of working dogs of some acclaim, having won championships (show, agility and herding) in the UK, Ireland and the US. I will not name my kennel, because I feel that the only thing that occurs when someone does on this board is a string of slanderous lies against good people. The dogs I've bred are all of champion lineage and are all treated well. As I am a breeder and trainer, I can tell you without a doubt that I have a full knowledge of working dog standards, both defined by the AKC and practical experience. My family has been raising working dogs for two generations. I say all this not for brags, but so when I say what I am about to say, you will fully understand and appreciate my words.

 

There is not one person that has posted on this board, not one person whom I feel I would ever allow one of my dogs to go to. Each and every one of you does not talk through a love of your dog but of a selfish and idealistic view of the breed. Do I love BCs? You bet I do. I love all working dogs, but more importantly, I love my dogs and I will never forget that. I didn’t pick up the family passion of training and breeding champion dogs because of some idealistic view of the breeds I wanted to promote. I didn’t do it because I saw "sport" destroying "working." I did it because I connected with the dogs and found personalities and intelligence you can only find in the working breeds. I did it because each individual dog I trained was special to me. I think people here have forgotten that.

 

I would also like to address some specific points here. First, the debate between sport and working is just plain silly. To suggest that one is superior to the other or one degrades the breed is an insult to the dogs themselves. I have worked with champion dogs that were equally adept in the show ring as they were on the agility course, playing fly ball, or herding. Breeding isn’t everything, people. In fact, it maybe makes up about a third of a dog's potential, probably less. You can breed for temperament and coloration, but everything else is unique to the dogs, just like we all have different passions and talents. Breeding two herding champions doesn't guarantee that your pups will have a strong herding instinct. In fact, some of my best herders have come from two show dogs.

 

Does breeding help and does it determine a few things? Yes. But more is left on the shoulders of the owner and trainer than on the sire and bitch.

 

Finally, I want to address a few things about shelters and rescue agencies. I think they are fantastic and do a great service. In fact, my kennel also runs a rescue and foster system. I wish I saw you all suggesting shelters because someone wanted to help a dog, or because you think a shelter dog would be well suited to what the person wanted. I don't see that. I see you all suggesting shelters because a person wants to do fly ball with a dog. What is wrong with you people? How many of you actually have rescue dogs?

[1sheepdoggal]

I took it out, because I already understood that you said you were looking into working breeders, and THAT wasnt the point to which I was refering to. You asked the question,

 

I'm just still trying to figure out why, necessarily, the sport breeders are bad. I still think they fill their own niche

 

and that was the part I was hoping to help answer for you. Where your looking makes no difference to me. You said sports breeders filled thier own nitch, I say they unnecessarily created it.

[Dixie_Girl]

KCKeller, when you show me a hunting/retrieving poodle, I will concur with you. When you show me a bull dog capable of going nose to nose with a 1200 bull I will concur. Show me a "lassie" type collie out working sheep, I will concur. Don't tell me breeding don't matter. When there is a chance that some pups out of working, proven dogs, won't work, what are the chances non-proven dogs will produce working minded dogs? It isn't JUST the fact that border collies work. It's other aspects of the breeding that make them desirable. They are confident, intelligent, hard working, gets along with people and animals alike, works when there is work and knows when to shut down the thrusters dogs. They have the ability to do free style "dance" because of their intelligence and atheltism. They are champion agility because of the breeding from working dogs. I could go on and on. But I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at. Mark my words. In 5yrs. "sport" people are gonna be wondering what the hell happened to their dogs they are breeding. Then they'll be out searching for border collies that they remember and will find them on working farms.

[1sheepdoggal]

Perhaps if your interested in knowing how people feel about thier dogs and how many have rescues, going to the million other threads on this board may help you answer those questions. This is but one thread, one facet of the way some people feel. There is a whole community here, and very little of that community has posted in this thread. Though I dont think that if we didnt love our dogs, and feel that same connection with them, that we would be so passionate about them to begin with.

[sluj]

Each and every one of you does not talk through a love of your dog but of a selfish and idealistic view of the breed. Do I love BCs? You bet I do. I love all working dogs, but more importantly, I love my dogs and I will never forget that. I didn’t pick up the family passion of training and breeding champion dogs because of some idealistic view of the breeds I wanted to promote. I didn’t do it because I saw "sport" destroying "working." I did it because I connected with the dogs and found personalities and intelligence you can only find in the working breeds. I did it because each individual dog I trained was special to me. I think people here have forgotten that.

 

I think people here don't refer to the love of their dogs because it is understood; a least common denominator. Since you feel there's a lack, I'll fill it: I love my dog. I love every dog who has ever lived with me. I have never, and will never breed one. Having been on the boards for a while, I have no qualms about saying that the majority of regular posters would describe themselves similarly. Of those who have bred I have read plenty of previous posting demonstrating their pride in, and affection for their dogs, and if you care to peruse the boards, I'm sure you'll see it as well.

 

If you're truly having difficulty seeing why the boards are so overwhelmingly promoting the preservation of the working border collie, please be aware that is the purpose of this site.

[KCKeller]

KCKeller, when you show me a hunting/retrieving poodle, I will concur with you. When you show me a bull dog capable of going nose to nose with a 1200 bull I will concur. Show me a "lassie" type collie out working sheep, I will concur. Don't tell me breeding don't matter. When there is a chance that some pups out of working, proven dogs, won't work, what are the chances non-proven dogs will produce working minded dogs? It isn't JUST the fact that border collies work. It's other aspects of the breeding that make them desirable. They are confident, intelligent, hard working, gets along with people and animals alike, works when there is work and knows when to shut down the thrusters dogs. They have the ability to do free style "dance" because of their intelligence and atheltism. They are champion agility because of the breeding from working dogs. I could go on and on. But I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at. Mark my words. In 5yrs. "sport" people are gonna be wondering what the hell happened to their dogs they are breeding. Then they'll be out searching for border collies that they remember and will find them on working farms.

 

 

Just a few points I want to bring up as issues here. First, I didn't say that breeding meant nothing. Show me where I said that and I will drop my argument. What I said was that it did not completely determine a dog's features and skills. I didn't say I ran poodles through the ring, though I have to thank you for that little bit of condescension. Really reinforced what I had said before. Oh, and Welsh Corgis are about 20lbs and bred to herd cattle regularly. Dont flatter yourself and think that the collie's breed is the only way to herd well.

 

My point was that working or sport doesn't matter. What matters is what you do with the dog and that you understand that a dog is capable of more then one thing. A collie that runs agility is still going to be able to herd, just as a dog that works on a farm will be able to run agility. Just because a dog was raised by a sport breeder doesn't mean that it wont have a strong herding instinct. As I said before, I've had dogs with champion show lineage from the AKC defined working class with incredible herding instincts.

 

I also would like to say that the sort of mentality of sport ruining the breed is silly. In five years a sport breeder will look at a working breeder and see the same dogs they love. The fact of the matter is that so long as you are exercising the aspects of the breed, it will not change. You cant take the work out of a working dog. Once again looking to Welsh corgis (specifically the Pembrook variation), they have been used outside of working conditions for a very long time and have been largely relegated to a show dog status. They are still champion herders and great agility runners. You cant breed that sort of thing out of a dog unless your are either irresponsible (and most breeders are more responsible then the people they end up giving the pups to) or they cross breed.

 

You aren't talking to just another owner here. I'm a breeder with several champion dogs in "sport," "show," and "working" categories. I've raised champion herders and champion show dogs. Sometimes they were the same dog. This isn't just opinionated ramblings, this is an informed statement.

[KCKeller]

Perhaps if your interested in knowing how people feel about thier dogs and how many have rescues, going to the million other threads on this board may help you answer those questions. This is but one thread, one facet of the way some people feel. There is a whole community here, and very little of that community has posted in this thread. Though I dont think that if we didnt love our dogs, and feel that same connection with them, that we would be so passionate about them to begin with.

 

 

You know what, you're right. I made a rhetorical mistake. I meant to say thread when I said board, and that leaves me looking quite the jerk. I apologize for the confusion, and I admit that I did make a mistake.

 

I'm not too proud to say that I was wrong and would like to ask that you consider my statements to actually refer to those in this thread, not the board in general.

[KCKeller]

I think people here don't refer to the love of their dogs because it is understood; a least common denominator. Since you feel there's a lack, I'll fill it: I love my dog. I love every dog who has ever lived with me. I have never, and will never breed one. Having been on the boards for a while, I have no qualms about saying that the majority of regular posters would describe themselves similarly. Of those who have bred I have read plenty of previous posting demonstrating their pride in, and affection for their dogs, and if you care to peruse the boards, I'm sure you'll see it as well.

 

If you're truly having difficulty seeing why the boards are so overwhelmingly promoting the preservation of the working border collie, please be aware that is the purpose of this site.

 

 

My only qualm is that to say that the breed needs to be preserved is a misconception. The breed is not under attack. The breed is not in any danger of dying. Sport breeders are not the devil. Sport breeders do not remove all the facets that make a working dog a working dog. Once again, look at Welsh Corgis. They have stayed largely the same as they were a century or even two centuries ago, and they are rarely seen herding cattle anymore. They didnt lose the instinct, they didnt lose the drive, the didnt lose the agility, and they certainly did not lose the personality and intelligence.

[notailabigail]

I wish I saw you all suggesting shelters because someone wanted to help a dog, or because you think a shelter dog would be well suited to what the person wanted. I don't see that. I see you all suggesting shelters because a person wants to do fly ball with a dog. What is wrong with you people? How many of you actually have rescue dogs?

 

If this is referring in any way to my post then I'd like to clarify that I was promoting rescue dogs in general and saying that I think it's silly that people go buy dogs specifically for doggy games like agility and flyball. And for what it's worth, both of my dogs are rescues and not just because I "wanted to do flyball" with them.

[KCKeller]

If this is referring in any way to my post then I'd like to clarify that I was promoting rescue dogs in general and saying that I think it's silly that people go buy dogs specifically for doggy games like agility and flyball. And for what it's worth, both of my dogs are rescues and not just because I "wanted to do flyball" with them.

 

 

I wasnt trying to direct it at any one person, but rather state the overall feel I get from the thread. I do commend you for having rescue dogs because I think its a wonderful thing to do for some wonderful dogs.

[1sheepdoggal]

You cant take the work out of a working dog.

 

Maybe not the want to "Do" something with stock, but you can definitly loose the ability for them be able twork to a standard that would make them the whole package, a totally usefuldog for either the shepherd or rancher.

 

 

Once again looking to Welsh corgis (specifically the Pembrook variation), they have been used outside of working conditions for a very long time and have been largely relegated to a show dog status. They are still champion herders and great agility runners. You cant breed that sort of thing out of a dog unless your are either irresponsible (and most breeders are more responsible then the people they end up giving the pups to) or they cross breed.

 

Im sorry, but I have to dissagree with that. Ive been working with dogs for 25 yrs now, and on a daily basis for that long. I have handled and trained many/most breeds. I have seen the degregation, the downward spiral of so many breeds, and the corgie is definitly no exception. Especially hit hard have been many of the working breeds. A doberman, a dog back when, was known to be a wonderful working dog, has been bred so much for top line and top skull, that if an intruder came to your house, the dog would be shaking under the sofa. A once, much larger, brave and courageous dog. Show me a GSD that still has enough instinct, not even to do herding work ,but to even provide the services in stock work to which it was originally bred, to be a living fence. And dont even get me started on the once proud and noble Golden Ret. Whos's been bred into a goofy, happy idiot. Not just a handful that have exceptional breeding,( most likey European lines if you can find one) but the majority of the breeds, since thats what were talking about, the breeds as a whole, not individuals. Corgies, throw 10 of them in with a bull, and see how many will be under the fence in 10 seconds flat, and running for the car, and the one left standing is gonna get his head kicked in cause he hasnt got enough stock sence to get the heck out of the way while it stands there barking like a fool. I can respect your years in dogs, but if you have been into them that long, and havent seen the ruin of so many original characteristics in so many breeds, so many abilities dumbed down, then I have to ask, what planet your on that dont see this? No disresepct intended, I just have a hard time understanding how you can say that a barbie collie could do the work to the standard that a working bred border collie can. ( ya cant take the work out of the working dog? ) I think ya can. I think we've all seen it. In alot/most of the working breeds.

[mjk05]

Once again, look at Welsh Corgis. They have stayed largely the same as they were a century or even two centuries ago, and they are rarely seen herding cattle anymore. They didnt lose the instinct,

Well, I think this thread has just disappeared to a land far, far away, in a swirl of magical fairy dust...

[KCKeller]

You cant take the work out of a working dog.

 

Maybe not the want to "Do" something with stock, but you can definitly loose the ability for them be able twork to a standard that would make them the whole package, a totally usefuldog for either the shepherd or rancher.

Once again looking to Welsh corgis (specifically the Pembrook variation), they have been used outside of working conditions for a very long time and have been largely relegated to a show dog status. They are still champion herders and great agility runners. You cant breed that sort of thing out of a dog unless your are either irresponsible (and most breeders are more responsible then the people they end up giving the pups to) or they cross breed.

Im sorry, but I have to dissagree with that. Ive been working with dogs for 25 yrs now, and on a daily basis for that long. I have handled and trained many a breed. I have seen the degregation, the downward spiral of so many breeds, and the corgie is definitly no exception. Especially hit hard have been many of the working breeds. A doberman, a dog back when, was known to be a wonderful working dog, has been bred so much for top line and top skull, that if an intruder came to your house, the dog would be shaking under the sofa. A once, much larger, brave and courageous dog. Show me a GSD that still has enough instinct, not even to do herding work ,but to even provide the services in stock work to which it was originally bred, to be a living fence. And dont even get me started on the once proud and noble Golden Ret. Whos's been bred into a goofy, happy idiot. Not just a handful that have exceptional breeding,( most likey European lines if you can find one) but the majority of the breeds, since thats what were talking about, the breeds as a whole, not individuals. Corgies, throw 10 of them in with a bull, and see how many will be under the fence in 10 seconds flat, and running for the car, and the one left standing is gonna get his head kicked in cause he hasnt got enough stock sence to get the heck out of the way while it stands there barking like a fool. I can respect your years in dogs, but if you have been into them that long, and havent seen the ruin of so many original characteristics in so many breeds, so many abilities dumbed down, then I have to ask, what planet your on that dont see this? No disresepct intended, I just have a hard time understanding how you can say that a barbie collie could do the work to the standard that a working bred border collie can. ( ya cant take the work out of the working dog? ) I think ya can. I think we've all seen it. In alot/most of the working breeds.

 

 

Heres the issue: you're confusing instinct for training. Even the best herding dogs need to be trained on some level. Even those with a strong herding instinct wont know exactly what to do, and certainly wont know what you WANT them to do. Just as there are corgis that dont know what to do when confronted with livestock, there are BCs that dont know. Barbie collies are a bad example to begin with, because they were never intended to do anything but look pretty. Nothing about them is a working dog, right down to the coat.

 

The case that I am trying to make with corgis, and really every working dog, is that what it all comes down to is the trainers drive to bring attributes out. Just like in humans, a dogs natural ability will atrophy if not used. A human might have an innate knack for music, but if that person never does anything with it, whats the point? Plenty of corgis have the herding instinct and have it strong, but if you let your corgi (or any dog) get to an older age and never introduce them to large animals, chances are good that no amount of instinct is going to prepare them. Corgi are not dumb dogs and unless you have really reinforced behavior contrary to their herding instincts and breeding, they'll at least know to duck under the hoof like they're meant to do.

 

Now, I do understand what you're getting at, as I have run into this problem many times, and know exactly what you're talking about. However, to expect a bunch of older corgis to just know what to do with a bull by throwing them into a ring isnt how it works. Even in herding instinct tests, the vast majority of dogs are listed LTI (less than ideal) but are still trainable, and the livestock used is almost invariably sheep, because anything else is far too much for any novice dog to handle at first go. To have a dog perfectly herd and animal on its first try is quite exceptional and very rare, and more often then not will spark an offer to purchase the dog off of you.

 

The fact of the matter is most people dont take their corgi or other dog out to be herd tested. They let the instinct go to waste. Its not that its not there, its that the needs place on the dog have changed and its not used. I mean, lets face it, how many people here actually need a flock tended to by their BC? My guess is that they are a minority. But that instinct doesn't die just because it isnt used. Thats not how genetics works. A purebred golden ret. will still fetch instinctively (or at the very least track a falling object) just as they were meant to. A corgi will still try to herd you across the floor or have a basic idea of what to do when it sees a group of sheep. A BC will still be a BC even if they are sport bred. I stand by what I said: you cant take the work out of a working dog. Its all a matter of you not wasting their natural talents. Agility and games both reinforce herding attributes such as agility, perception, and intellect. Just because a dog isnt acting as that mobile fence does not mean that they are not still the same working dogs they might have been if they were.

[KCKeller]

Well, I think this thread has just disappeared to a land far, far away, in a swirl of magical fairy dust...

 

 

are you going to explain yourself or are you just going to be patronizing?

[mjk05]

I'm just still trying to figure out why, necessarily, the sport breeders are bad.

Allie,

imagine a world where all the "border collies" are attractive, athletic, sound, trainable, high drive dogs, that make great pets when they aren't competing- but they really aren't that special at working stock.

 

If that's OK with you, then I can see why you're having trouble with this thread.

 

But that's the "best case scenario" for long term sports-focussed breeding, and its not really a nice idea for those of us that have (or value) border collies as a working dog.