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Allie, I wouldn't call any of the breeders you mentioned "working breeders", and it'd be hard to recommend them. I see breeding for agility, flyball, obedience and color, but not much (any?) work. I will admit I only glanced through, though. Have you checked out the link above for the Canadian Border Collie Association?

 

I'd encourage you to keep looking at rescue. If you want a sports partner, you can't go wrong with a dog from a rescue, who's been in a foster home and already evaluated for potential. And you can find young puppies. I see them all the time. But, if you have your heart set on a breeder, I'd keep looking.

 

Also, welcome to the board! I applaud your interest in doing some research and asking questions before you get your border collie. :rolleyes:

 

mosstheboss-OMG, I love Cody! Sounds like he needs a firm hand, but he's awesome.

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KUDOS to you. That is quite a nice website, and WOW, what a nice selection of adoptables. I am glad I don't live closer to you....

 

Border Collie Rescue Ontario we currently have a couple of INCREDIBLE sport prospects!!!

Brew, Blaze and Hendrix all will make exceptional sport dogs. Perfect age to start training. Great foundation on them from foster care, amazing drive. These boys will rock.

We also have a 8 week old cross that is fearless, fiesty and super drivey... think she may have eskie in her but this girl ran through a tunnel and over a 10 inch jump playing with another dog. She LOVES to tug and is crazy outgoing.

I do hope that people looking for potential sport dogs will consider rescue, ALL my foster homes do competitive dog sports with their dogs. These dogs are fully evaluated for this type of placement.

We have had great success and have many dogs doing amazing things in the performance world!

http://www.bordercollierescueont.com

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Allie, I wouldn't call any of the breeders you mentioned "working breeders", and it'd be hard to recommend them.

 

Agreed. I wouldn't recommend any of them.

 

You want to find a breeder which is more interested in working their dogs and trialing, then say, flyball (fun game BTW but no good reason to breed a dog).

 

Also, you are looking for breeders who have CBCA section "A" pedigrees. Do not settle for something with section "B" pedigrees.

 

There are plenty of good breeders/handlers where you come from, just keep looking and asking questions if you need to.

 

Here would be a great event for you to learn and meet a lot of the best in the breed, maybe even meet the parents of your future pup. :rolleyes:http://www.canadianbordercollies.org/champs08.html

 

Katelynn

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although I am on the east coast of the US I can't agree more about finding some VERY nice pups for sport in rescue. Both my daughters partner Meg and my current baby in training Whim come from MABCR in Maryland. Although Meg isnt super high drive she is great for a young handler to run. Whim is very driven, very athletic and I'm really trying to set up a date to try him on sheep....I cant wait.

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Anyone in Ontario looking to see some herding trials, we have a good summer planned with trials in July, August, Sept & Oct.

 

check out www.ontariobordercollieclub.com or also listed on www.nebca.net

 

 

The Canadians are at the Grasscreek herding week just after the august long weekend.

 

All of the other trials are farm trials where you can sit and ask as many questions as you like

 

Cynthia

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The Canadians are at the Grasscreek herding week just after the august long weekend.

 

I already have my holidays booked for that weekend :rolleyes: Cynthia, I'm sending you a PM regarding that weekend.

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Both of our border collies came from rescue and both are working sheepdogs now. What I did in the spirit of our wildlife sanctuary, is go to the rescue and tell them what I needed to have. Then we test ran a few to see if they wanted a home like ours and wanted to work sheep.

 

The first, Cap is a patient, quiet, strong worker, loves everyone, he came into rescue as a pup.

 

The second, Gunny was going to be euthanised because at the shelter she just gave up and shut down.

We tested her on sheep and she really wanted to be a working dog.

With love and work she is a completely different dog.

She is a tough, move anything kind of gal. But still stand offish to folks she doesn't know.

 

The rescue is Raven's gate.

 

I couldn't be happier with the dogs and they are so glad to have a permanent home!

 

Couldn't do our ag work without them now.

 

I'd put pics in but I can't figure out how!

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AllieMackie,

Please go to the trials that have been mentioned here and talk to some real working dog breeders if you don't want to go through rescue. I wouldn't touch a pup from any of the links you posted, especially not the folks breeding for color (and I like red dogs). You say you want to stay away from sport breeders, but that's basically what all four of those are. Personally I believe you can find the sort of drive and athleticism you need in a sport dog right in rescue (and I'd like the idea of getting an adolescent I could start training right away), but if you want to start with a pup from a breeder, please do more research on good working dog breeders. There are some very well-known and excellent handlers in Canada (and the northeastern US) and you shouldn't have trouble finding a well-bred working-bred pup (and by work I mean stockwork--the rest is sports/games). Don't be fooled into thinking herding titles = working bred either.

 

J.

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I get purebred pups all the time in rescue they may be between 12 and 18 weeks but, they are reds, smooths, meds, roughs. Right now I have newborn Border aussie pups in blue merle, black, and sable and Poss a blue. (Sneaky next door blue merle aussie dad at her previous home)

 

They will be well cared for and well socialized as well as any expensive breeder they will be vet checked and personality tested.

 

We also will agree to adopt to Ontario if you venture to NE Pa but, it's up to you to get a health certificate to travel back.

 

Before I got into border collie rescue I thought like everyone else. I wanted the best so get my own pup and raise it. Well she's probably my most annoying dog of the 4.

 

Pups are out there and being euthanized in shelters everyday.

 

Sheryl

Friends of Pep Border collie and currently all breed rescue

http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/PA532.html

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I forgot to add that I tried herding but, I cant afford it and dont have the time to drive to practice. If I did of all the dogs I tested with my best dog is a Red Border collie from rescue. Penny.

 

One of her daughters trains with Cheryl Williams I hope to see her trialing this year at sheepy hollow. Good people and good owners with good dogs get themselves in bad situations too and have to turn to rescue for help.

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Border Collie Rescue Ontario we currently have a couple of INCREDIBLE sport prospects!!!

Brew, Blaze and Hendrix all will make exceptional sport dogs. Perfect age to start training. Great foundation on them from foster care, amazing drive. These boys will rock.

We also have a 8 week old cross that is fearless, fiesty and super drivey... think she may have eskie in her but this girl ran through a tunnel and over a 10 inch jump playing with another dog. She LOVES to tug and is crazy outgoing.

I do hope that people looking for potential sport dogs will consider rescue, ALL my foster homes do competitive dog sports with their dogs. These dogs are fully evaluated for this type of placement.

We have had great success and have many dogs doing amazing things in the performance world!

http://www.bordercollierescueont.com

 

I'm seriously in love with Brew. I've been checking up on him everyday but I'm not ready to add another until at least next year. Blaze also caught my eye. I am trying to restrain myself from going down to BCRO and taking one of them, haha :rolleyes:

 

And in regards to Allie, from spending time on this forum, I have completely abandoned the idea of getting a pup. You may find you'll do the same. Good luck in your search and whatever you end up choosing!

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I get purebred pups all the time in rescue they may be between 12 and 18 weeks but, they are reds, smooths, meds, roughs. Right now I have newborn Border aussie pups in blue merle, black, and sable and Poss a blue. (Sneaky next door blue merle aussie dad at her previous home)

 

They will be well cared for and well socialized as well as any expensive breeder they will be vet checked and personality tested.

 

We also will agree to adopt to Ontario if you venture to NE Pa but, it's up to you to get a health certificate to travel back.

 

Before I got into border collie rescue I thought like everyone else. I wanted the best so get my own pup and raise it. Well she's probably my most annoying dog of the 4.

 

Pups are out there and being euthanized in shelters everyday.

 

Sheryl

Friends of Pep Border collie and currently all breed rescue

http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/PA532.html

 

You got me bookmarking the rescue link! It may be in PA, but I think I am seriously going to consider it when I get my next dog. Rush is still a puppy, but I know sometime in the future I am going to be after another dog, probably a border collie lol.

 

I am now addicted to looking at rescues :rolleyes:

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You got me bookmarking the rescue link! It may be in PA, but I think I am seriously going to consider it when I get my next dog. Rush is still a puppy, but I know sometime in the future I am going to be after another dog, probably a border collie lol.

 

I am now addicted to looking at rescues :rolleyes:

 

 

YES!!!! :D

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I appreciate the responses, and I'm fully aware that there are rescues out there for purebred border collies. Thanks.

 

I do want to know, precisely, why the specific breeders I mentioned are bad, given that, with all of those breeders, the breeding dogs work sheep as well as doing some sports, are raised under foot in the home, and are of a sound temperament with good off-switches.

 

I've spoken through email and phone calls to each of those breeders, to get more information on the work the dogs do, specifically, specific insight on their temperaments/drive, and references to owners of offspring. Not only have I recieved clearer, specific, more polite responses from these breeders than the several working breeders local to the Ottawa/Kingston area that I've contacted, but the "sport" breeders have gladly offered references, insight, and even references to other breeders that might be of interest to me, in case their dogs/litters were not suited to me.

 

I'm not trying to sound defensive, or that I'm shooting down everyone's advice. It's just that every time I mention breeders that happen to involve their dogs in sports, EVERYONE'S red flags go up. And yet, I've heard great things from friends and contacts with dogs from these "sport" breeders. I want some insight into why these specific breeders are bad, now that I've been told (again) why sport breeders are bad.

 

Also, other than the breeders listed on canadianbordercollies.com (which, by the way, list two of the breeders that I originally posted about, so I'm a bit confused as to what I should think), does anyone have other references? So far I've been somewhat unimpressed with the responses, or lack thereof, I've gotten from many of those breeders in the past few weeks of contacting.

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First of all, buying a pup is not like shopping at WalMart. Or rather, it is in a way, because convenience does not equal quality. Breeders who are in it primarily to sell pups are going to be available, extremely helpful, polite, and be willing to talk for hours about their "merchandise." Consider that a used car salesperson will also be the same. I'm not saying that being readily available is a sure sign of a breeder who just wants to sell you something.

 

However, the kind of breeder that I'd want to buy from, will be difficult to reach if they don't know me from Adam. That is not because they are dissing me, but because they probably won't have pups on the ground or even plans for this year necessarily, they are very busy taking care of the farm and trialing and training dogs, and most of all, they don't consider themselves "puppy sellers" at the beck and call of every potential customer.

 

How about this, I'll tell you one specific thing about one of the breeders. I will not name that one, since you've named four this comment will remain fairly anonymous.

 

One of the breeders bred a litter that is one of the most horrifying combinations in terms of temperament, I've ever seen in a Border Collie pedigree. And I'm not saying that lightly because I've seen a LOT of pedigrees of rescue dogs.

 

Then they line bred to it.

 

If they had really trained those dogs to work, they'd know what they had produced, as that combination always crashes and burns in training for various reasons. But they make fantastic sport dogs. This is a mistake that is commonly made in sport breeding, because that kind of personality makes dogs that go-go-go - but training and breeding for work only is about breeding for balance.

 

If you want more information, you can PM me.

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Well said, Rebecca.

 

In my looking around the internet and talking with some folks, what Becca said tends to be very true. The sport/high-volume/less-responsible breeders are often the ones that are easy to talk to, have appealing websites, are your-best-buddy when you are looking to buy, have lots of testimonials, etc. They are marketing a product and that's why they are ready, willing, and able to talk to you and encourage you. It's salesmanship - it doesn't mean they are good breeders or selling good dogs.

 

The best breeders often don't advertise and do a lot of placing of their pups by word of mouth and reputation among the people who know the dogs. Those pups are often spoken for in advance of the breeding. There are excellent breeders who are on the internet but I'd say they are a minority, and they can often be found on association website listings and such (a caveat here is that some less-than-good breeders may also have listings there).

 

Some of them, too, may be less interested in placing a pup with someone who is not going to provide it with an active working home (farm/ranch/trial) in the hands of an experienced (or in training) handler. If they are making an excellent breeding, they are going to want most (if not all) of the pups going to homes where they can prove their worth as working stockdogs.

 

Please, please, consider rescue. If I wanted a Border Collie for a companion, sports, or other non-working purpose, I would go straight to a rescue that I respected.

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Well said Sue and everyone else. I'm not speaking for our rescue to get you here but, I'm expressing a feeling of I made mistakes and now I know better. I have great dogs that I love that I rescued.

 

I've seen at least 10 dogs this year that it broke my heart that they went to adoptive homes as I wanted to keep them. alot more I saw as really great dogs that are doing great things with their new owners like 2 that assist with kids counseling. A few that have their therapy 2 that are helper dogs. These are dogs that all wound up in shelters and were really in danger of being pts.

 

I try to stay neutral on this issue as people will do what they want when it comes to getting a dog but, the option is there to adopt and if you do that with great care and trust the rescue you adopt form to help you make the right adoption decision it's a great thing for everyone involved.

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I know all of those breeders and their dogs personally.... you can contact me privately and I can discuss them with you. Doing what we do and being so active in sports and having been in the herding world perhaps I can give you some insight.

mosstheboss2000@rogers.com

Perhaps you should call me! I will PM you my number.

Thanks

Cindy

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Hey, you're the one who said, "I'm trying to avoid sport breeders." If in fact you WANT a sport breeder, then I guess you've found some.

 

I'm not surprised that these breeders would tell you that their dogs "work sheep as well as doing some sports, are raised under foot in the home, and are of a sound temperament with good off-switches." It could all be true, but the fact that they say it makes it no more nor less likely to be true. I have dealt with flagrant puppy millers who say the same. Note: I'm not saying that these are puppy millers -- I have no reason whatsoever to think they are, and nothing about their websites indicates that they are. I'm just saying that it's very easy to make claims like that when selling pups. Everyone knows what are the "right" things to say.

 

As regards "working sheep," does the dog run in trials, and if so, what type of trials, at what level, with what results? If the dog does not run in trials, what is the nature of the owners' livestock operation, what type and numbers of livestock does the dog work regularly, what services does he perform, what are his strengths and weaknesses? Or has the dog just been put in a small area with sheep a few times so that pictures could be taken of him? I like border collies bred for work, because breeding for work is what made the border collie the dog that it is. And by "bred for work," I mean fully trained to work livestock, intelligently assessed for quality, and mated to a dog similarly trained and assessed, with an eye to producing an even better working dog in the next generation.

 

As regards flyball, agility, etc., I noticed that three of the four kennels listed virtually no titles or specific accomplishments for their dogs (lots o' pix, lots o' praise), although they did list accomplishments of some of their dog's parents and accomplishments of some of their dogs' offspring. It seemed a little unusual that the dogs themselves had no accomplishments listed, other than being fast, or being in training, or having a good temperament. But then, these dog sports are a result of training, not breeding, and as others have pointed out, a nice, well-chosen rescue dog is as good a prospect for any of these sports as a dog supposedly bred for it.

 

I did mention a good breeder in Ontario earlier in this thread, and of course there are others. But it sounds like they are not what you're looking for, and that in fact you have found what you're looking for. So I'm not really sure why you posted, but good luck to you. I'm sure you will like your dog wherever you get him or her.

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If the dog does not run in trials, what is the nature of the owners' livestock operation, what type and numbers of livestock does the dog work regularly, what services does he perform, what are his strengths and weaknesses?

 

This is actually another probable place for misconceptions. People looking for puppies who do not actually work stock themselves often have no idea how to distinguish between working at high levels and bringing the six sheep owned by the breeder back and forth to the pasture every day. Sometimes I think having that caveat that people selling quality border collies need not participate in USBCHA-sanctioned trials if they work their dogs to high levels on the ranch opens a really, really big loophole that is difficult for non-stock-working people to appreciate. I have spoken with people tempted by these types of breeders who proudly say "They have sheep! Their dogs work sheep!" when all their dogs do is move the same few sheep back and forth to and from the same places all the time. That is not working stock to high levels! It's marketing!

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I must say that it is in my experience that people in the sheep herding world breed just as indiscrimitely as a breeder breeding sport dogs. I know many a dog that did not make it as a trial dog and was sold off as a pet or chore dog but before that was bred at least once. I also know of many sport dogs that were bred just cause they were FAST!

 

If you look at the people breeding in Ontario ALOT of their lines are the same whether they do sports or sheep herding with the dogs. Amanda Milliken for example has the Rambo Waifer line and so does one of the top breeders for sport dogs Linda Verna. Both of them have dogs that excell in their venue's and this has been proven over time.

 

Interestingly I have never seen one of Linda's dogs end up in rescue, I know for a fact she would rarely if ever sell a dog to a pet home... she doesn't have to because she usually has a waiting list for her dogs for competitive sport homes. I on the other hand have helped rehome a couple of Amanda's dogs that were sold to pet homes with smaller children.

 

Saying that sport dogs are good 'only' because of training could be said about herding dogs also to some degree. Lots of people breed very similar lines to Amanda's dogs and buy her puppies to trial but we don't see them going out and kicking her butt do we! Yes her dogs may be good working dogs but they are WINNERS because 'she' is a great handler.

 

One of the big differences I do find

The breeders of sport dogs tend to do ALOT more work with their puppies ie. in the way of socializing and early development work training with their puppies. I find 'most' people who breed their BC's for sport are better about breeding for demand rather then just having multiple litters on the ground.

 

Cindy

http://www.bordercollierescueont.com

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I took the advice and links already given in this thread, which is great. I also have done a ton of research on my own, and contacted a pile of breeders. I'll be meeting with a handful of breeders in southern Ontario next week sometime, when I go there to visit for a few days (I live in Ottawa, on the east side of Ontario). Currently looking at visiting Moy Hall farms, Cedar Border Collies, and Rival Kennels. Possibly Power Tripp as well.

 

All in all, I'm trying to avoid sport breeders, and go for either working breeders, or combination (as Cedar and Rival seem to be, although I'll know more when I see in person).

 

Any thoughts/suggestions/whatever is appreciated. :rolleyes:

 

Margaret Lambkin of Rival Kennels has certainly gone to sports breedings and is trying to produce small border collies. I have seen quite a few BCs out of her kennels, and although they have good temperaments and usually good structure they are vey reactive- react before thinking when training them. She also does back to back to back breedings etc. Power Tripp looks like it is gradually getting into show lines - breeding into Hollowshot lines. Susan Garrett's Buz is from Cedar Border Collies and he is the only one that has survived his litter - all the rest of his litter was put down for agression - Buzz himself had a lot of agression issues that Susan worked through. She tried to blame it in Imported Sport, but it is coming out of the bitches lines. I know of a lot of offspring off of Imp. Spot and they certainly don't show agression. I wouldn't want anything that has Buzz's Dam in it.

 

I can't comment on Moy Hall as I am not familiar with them.

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Susan Garrett's Buz is from Cedar Border Collies and he is the only one that has survived his litter - all the rest of his litter was put down for agression - Buzz himself had a lot of agression issues that Susan worked through. She tried to blame it in Imported Sport, but it is coming out of the bitches lines. I know of a lot of offspring off of Imp. Spot and they certainly don't show agression. I wouldn't want anything that has Buzz's Dam in it.

 

Wow, that is amazing that all the puppies in one litter had such serious issues. I read (and reread) Garrett's Shaping Success and I doubt if many could have trained and handled Buzz to the levels Garrett did. Based on all the people who told her she'd never get anywhere with him, probably few would want to try. After seeing the different traits and quirks in my various dogs over the years, including severe shyness in one and severe aggression in another, I'm of the firm belief that temperament (genetics) trumps all. At the very least, it is the clay we start with.

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