Reputable breeders in my area?

[KCKeller]

Allie,

imagine a world where all the "border collies" are attractive, athletic, sound, trainable, high drive dogs, that make great pets when they aren't competing- but they really aren't that special at working stock.

 

If that's OK with you, then I can see why you're having trouble with this thread.

 

But that's the "best case scenario" for long term sports-focussed breeding, and its not really a nice idea for those of us that have (or value) border collies as a working dog.

 

 

Your outlook on life is quite inspiringly bleak. Just because sports breeders exist does not mean that working breeders will cease to, or that the instinct will cease.

[mjk05]

OK.

 

The pictures I've seen of corgis in the "olden days" look dramatically different to the corgis I've seen now. I've never seen or heard any evidence that corgis still have significant levels of working ability (more than any other predominantly show-bred breed). I don't know of any commercial livsetock producers anywhere that rely on corgis.

 

But that instinct doesn't die just because it isnt used. Thats not how genetics works.

Yes, it is.

 

The fact of the matter is most people dont take their corgi or other dog out to be herd tested.

Even in herding instinct tests, the vast majority of dogs are listed LTI (less than ideal)

Herding instinct tests are so far removed from what we're talking about that they could be on another planet.

 

A corgi will still try to herd you across the floor

Agility and games both reinforce herding attributes such as agility, perception, and intellect.

"Herding" people and agility also have nothing to do with working ability on livestock.

 

Barbie collies are a bad example to begin with, because they were never intended to do anything but look pretty. Nothing about them is a working dog, right down to the coat.

What on earth is the difference between a Show BC and a corgi or a Golden Retriever???

 

I mean, lets face it, how many people here actually need a flock tended to by their BC?

I do. And I'm off to do that now.

[1sheepdoggal]

Ok, I probably could have bought into some of what you said, if you wouldnt have said

 

Barbie collies are a bad example to begin with, because they were never intended to do anything but look pretty. Nothing about them is a working dog, right down to the coat.

 

Barbie collies originated from the working border collie. Was the original "intent " of the barbie collie breeder to strip the dog of any and all working ability for the sake of more coat, an aussie head, and tipped ears? I dont think that was the original intention at all, but it is what happened, so I do think they are a very good example when you say you cant take the work out of a working dog. I think it is a prime example.

Training can do a lot for a dog, it can even bring out aspects of a dog that could lay dormant, for years, if it has the breeding behind it to have those qualities to start with. But you cant work with what you dont have. If its not there, you cant train it to be.

 

Its all a matter of you not wasting their natural talents

 

Your assuming they all have them?

 

 

But that instinct doesn't die just because it isnt used.

 

 

But it does if you dont breed for it. And breeding for it is what we're talking about.

[KCKeller]

OK.

 

The pictures I've seen of corgis in the "olden days" look dramatically different to the corgis I've seen now. I've never seen or heard any evidence that corgis still have significant levels of working ability (more than any other predominantly show-bred breed). I don't know of any commercial livsetock producers anywhere that rely on corgis.

 

(a quiet side note: the difference you see in corgi appearance is due to the two variations on the breed splitting around the 1940's, but thats irrelevant here)

 

Fair enough, and I have said that corgis are largely no longer used for commercial herding (though I do know that the Cardigan variation on the breed is still used in parts of the UK and Ireland, just not as predominately as a BC, and I know of at least two breeders in my area that use Pembrook for commercial livestock herding), at least not to the best of my knowledge, but they can still be used to prove a point. That point is that the instinct does not die with disuse, as if it did, a corgi would not have any sort of instinct at this time, since it hasn't been widely used for commercial herding for many years. Herding tests are very relevant to the discussion here because they are tools to show an ability that hasn't been widely used in at least a century. By placing a dog into the ring with a group of livestock and seeing how they handle them, we can see that the instinct is alive and well, even if it isnt being used. Argue this all you want, but the plain fact of the matter is that the instinct is embedded into a working dog's genetics, and even a century of show breeding, which is much more detrimental to a breed then sport breeding, wont weed it out.

 

Now, had you read the second half of my statement on corgis herding people, you probably would have realized that I also said that the corgi will have a basic idea of what to do with the sheep. Which is true, you simply need to do a quick search on youtube to see that. Herding people doesn't have anything to do with livestock, this is true, but I used it more to illustrate that the instinct was there rather then to denote ability. The fact that corgis who have never even seen a sheep, let alone a farm, can display the same herding instinct as those who are actively working is what I'm demonstrating here. By yours and the others logic, a corgi should have no innate herding ability at all, and should simply be a pretty little dainty flower. Such is not the case.

 

Now, in terms of the "show" BC or the Barbie BC, the main difference is that the Lassy-like BC is a shift from the standard that favors aesthetics over functionality. A show BC's coat is not rain slick and the long hairs would get in the way, causing injury either self inflicted or caused by the livestock, and their eyesight is generally not considered to be as good as a working BC. All this being said, show BCs have won herding championships in the past, which I think actually goes to prove my point. Corgis, however, have retained all the physical traits that made them effective working dogs, from their rain slick coat, to their short stature and flat heads.

 

Now, I do want to say that I do see where you are coming from. Trials and tests are a ways away from getting out into the field and working, but they do show that the potential to get out there and work remains. It just needs to be utilized.

[KCKeller]

Ok, I probably could have bought into some of what you said, if you wouldnt have said

 

Barbie collies are a bad example to begin with, because they were never intended to do anything but look pretty. Nothing about them is a working dog, right down to the coat.

 

Barbie collies originated from the working border collie. Was the original "intent " of the barbie collie breeder to strip the dog of any and all working ability for the sake of more coat, an aussie head, and tipped ears? I dont think that was the original intention at all, but it is what happened, so I do think they are a very good example when you say you cant take the work out of a working dog. I think it is a prime example.

 

 

I would agree, but any increase of coat length puts the dog at risk of injury. Any breeder that knows anything would have realized that.

[PSmitty]

There is not one person that has posted on this board, not one person whom I feel I would ever allow one of my dogs to go to. Each and every one of you does not talk through a love of your dog but of a selfish and idealistic view of the breed.

 

Well, that's a pretty broad and silly statement. Just because we're not talking specifically of love for our personal dogs? Uh, that's not the issue being discussed in this thread, is it?

 

I wish I saw you all suggesting shelters because someone wanted to help a dog, or because you think a shelter dog would be well suited to what the person wanted. I don't see that. I see you all suggesting shelters because a person wants to do fly ball with a dog. What is wrong with you people? How many of you actually have rescue dogs?

 

Actually I was the first person to respond to Allie and I suggest rescue. I'm not going back to re-read, but I'm quite certain several others suggested rescue as well. In fact, it's a common practice on this board to *always* suggest rescue first to someone looking for a pet/sports partner. It's up to Allie whether or not she goes the rescue route, and it sounds like she doesn't want to.

 

And all three of my dogs are rescues (whom I love very much, since you were wondering). Whether or not I *ever* buy a dog from a breeder, doesn't change the fact that I can see the big picture and what the working folks and breeders are trying to accomplish, preservation of the border collie as a working dog.

 

Off topic....

 

Hey, Jody (notailabigail)-when you get a chance, there's a PM you'll want to see over on the other board.

[PSmitty]

Sorry, I meant to ask about this:

 

I have worked with champion dogs that were equally adept in the show ring as they were on the agility course, playing fly ball, or herding.

 

Really? Since I don't know anything about "show ring" dogs, can you give me some examples, please?

 

Breeding isn’t everything, people.

 

I agree with that when it comes to temperament, aptitude in dog sports, etc. That's why there are so many successful rescue dogs out there competing in agility and flyball. Not to mention being great pets for their families.

 

But when it comes to working ability, I would think breeding is everything.

 

OK, gotta get ready for work!

[Denise Wall]

KCKeller,

 

I don't believe you have worked border collies on stock to a high level. Your language is that of a KC person who doesn't work stock.

[PSmitty]

I think you're right, Denise.

 

As I am a breeder and trainer, I can tell you without a doubt that I have a full knowledge of working dog standards, both defined by the AKC and practical experience.

(emphasis added)

 

And this surprises me:

 

Dont flatter yourself and think that the collie's breed is the only way to herd well.

 

Of course one is entitled to one's own opinion...it's just odd coming from a border collie trainer/breeder.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Exactly (what Denise said).

 

KCKeller,

You contradict yourself when you say that herding ability will always be there no matter what the breeding practices when you then point out that KC border collies aren't good for work and corgies and other herding breeds are as follows:

 

Even in herding instinct tests, the vast majority of dogs are listed LTI (less than ideal) but are still trainable

 

I guess the argument could be around what defines "trainable," but you need only look at the videos of all the young dogs people are starting here to know that there's "trainable" and there's "trainable" and I personally wouldn't want to start with a dog who's less than ideal when there are dogs bred to do the work and are actually quite able to do the work from a very young age with minimal input from the handler.

 

And yes, I love my dogs dearly, and I have several rescues. I also depend on my working dogs around the farm.

 

I'm done with this discussion--I think it's reached a new low and pointless level.

 

AllieMackie,

Amanda and Werner are both great choices. They won't steer you wrong. My best working bitch goes back to Amanda's lines (admittedly way back).

 

J.

[vanillalove]

KCKeller, I would just like to say that we have never said that sports breeders are going to end the Border Collie race for good, and take along every working breeder with it. I mean, I was looking at sports and combination breeders before I realized that Border Collies are special because of their lineage and past and it was then I converted my thinking and decided to preserve that special part of the Border Collie that slowly disappearing in other breeds.

 

Honestly, if I never came to these boards, I would have never learned this. I would have probably gone and got a pup from one of the breeders I was looking at before (sports and combination) and ended up with the love of my life dog. Learning this, I am going to go to either go to rescue or if I happen to go to a breeder, I will go to a working breeder and get a pup, and end up with the love of my life dog. You see, I'm going to love my dog regardless, as we all would here. Along the line with every single person on these boards, each of us realized that while we may not be "ruining the breed" by buying from sports or combo breeders, but we can help ensure it's preservation as the most amazing dog that we know.

 

For anyone who loves the BC, they are those little black and white doggies that herd sheep. Ask strangers on the street, I'm sure they'll tell you the same thing. "Oh they're the dogs from Babe!" Ask someone about German Shepherds, "Well they're.. big dogs!" There is nothing wrong with a breed wearing a lot of hats (or known for a lot of things) I mean, the Border Collie dominates in everything it does, frig, even conformation people LOVE to see them (I don't really know why.. haha) The Border Collie is capable of so much, we LOVE them for that here. Nothing would be so, without those working lines.

 

It's not that we're AGAINST sports breeders, we're just in love with what working created, the BC. To us, there is no other option but to keep that legacy. I'm going and getting my first purebred BC within the next year and I will most likely be doing so through rescue, this proves that although I am passionate about the past of this breed. I will love my dog regardless.

 

My dogs are my life, as are every other person on these boards and in this thread. I mean, who other crazy people would spend their time online talking about dogs they already live with? Haha

[2 Devils]

I have to say that when you talk about the corgi and the fact they still have the ability to "know" what to do is humerous. I have seen corgis herd around here and I think only 1 showed any promise and that dog was owned by the herding instructor.

 

I have an acd from straight cattle lines and sorry to say she is a herding dropout. My bc mix that was a rescue a few years back was also a herding dropout since all she wanted to do was eat the sheep. At the time, my itty bitty toy poodle showed more aptitude than my other dogs. He could take sheep off the fence, he would grip - but you know what - it was NOT herding instinct. His was all prey drive because he is a very prey driven dog.

 

My borderjack (bc/jrt mix) is from a breeder and was purposely bred. I admit it and always have. I love this dog to death. So you see I am not particularly against sport breeders as a whole, my issue is with how many of the sport breeders are breeding dogs that can't relax easily. I also do know a couple sport breeders that are also herding with their dogs and not just AKC herding. I do not know how good these dogs are but at least the breeders are trying to keep the herding instinct intact. They sell mainly to sport homes though and many of these pups are spayed/neutered.

 

My bc that comes from good working lines but also has some AKC in the lines is currently also a herding dropout. She is afraid of the sheep. Now I know one of her siblings is doing quite well with sheep though. Maybe being raised in a house that is herding would have made a difference in Tempe but who knows. Breeding is a crapshoot. You can only hope to get what you want and breed dogs that give you a better chance but you just never know.

 

The versatile border collie can exist but not if the sport breeders are only breeding for sport and not herding ability.

[painted_ponies]

I just don't get it. Agility, flyball, disc...they are all games. They were invented as a way to have fun training your dog. How can somebody who wants a dog to play games with see all of those dogs in rescue and in shelters and not even consider adopting one? Why does one tell oneself they *need* a dog that is "bred" to play a game? No, that dog that is filling its "niche" is not itself being harmed but there are a hell of a lot of other dogs that are killed for no good reason every.day. Why not save one of them? I really don't understand.

 

I've been wondering the exact same thing. Why is rescue not an option? I apologize if this has been answered already - I've read all the posts but can't remember seeing where AllieMackie addressed this issue.

[jdarling]

Firstly, I am a breeder of working dogs of some acclaim, having won championships (show, agility and herding) in the UK, Ireland and the US.

 

That's great! The herding championships ... where were they held? What kind were they? Were they recent? Who sanctioned them? How many sheep did you work? What kind of courses were they? Please ... tell us all about them!

[painted_ponies]

That's great! The herding championships ... where were they held? What kind were they? Were they recent? Who sanctioned them? How many sheep did you work? What kind of courses were they? Please ... tell us all about them!

 

I was going to just ignore the poster you've quoted, since we've heard this fable so often in the past. But on second thought I guess you're right to call her on it since we do have a lot of new people on this thread.

[Pat W.]

I want a focused, intelligent dog that has the drive to work, and work hard. I want a dog that will be my companion in competing for flyball, agility, disc dog and possibly obedience/dock diving. And, on top of all that, I want a dedicated companion, and I've found all of that in border collies.

 

And I don't want to hear "oh, you'll find all that in a working breeder". I'll say once again that I'm currently looking at working breeders, so you can stop telling me why I'm bad for wanting a dog from a sport breeder. I'm just still trying to figure out why, necessarily, the sport breeders are bad. I still think they fill their own niche, and I know quite a few owners of sport-bred dogs that adore their dogs, and the dogs are just what they were looking for.

____________

 

I'm a foster home for Mid Atlantic BCR and I'll honestly tell you some of why we're against sport breeding, most sport bred dogs dont do well most homes, I can tell you this because I HAVE a sport bred bc. Whim came into rescue at age 10 weeks...yes 10 weeks of age. "What?" you say "can cause a 10 wk old puppy to end up in rescue?". He jumped on their elderly shelties to play and growled when he tugged. THATS IT. Sport breeders that are competitive in agility to the level that they are looking at World Team, Lifetime Achievement awards and so forth want first and foremost - S P E E D - resulting in a lot of neurotic, OCD dogs in pet homes and then in rescue, then in my home for me to try and fix. I wont say sport dogs are "hardwired" to go - go - go, but its damned close, the common pet home, which is where alot of sport bred bc's end up because there are only so many competitors looking for a new pup at a given time. In fact alot of these dogs dont have a whole lot of self preservation sense either. Go to a trial watch these dogs run, to the spectator -breath taking, to competitors too, but scary also beacause the dog simply doesnt know when to quit or how to settle, some of this is training, some is temperment, some is breeding. Do you have experience with this type of dog? Can you handle having a toy winged at you to play the moment you get up, a dog that is just getting warmed up after an hour of running, playing, and training? Not a lot of people can, all I can say is thank god Whim's former owners had the sense to realize their mistake and handed him over to rescue, and I thank them for it because I have a wonderful young dog and future agility star and hopefully a nice little dog on sheep too.

 

When I joined this list what is it 3 years ago, and posted that I was doing research for future partner - my 2nd bc and the breeders I was looking at one being Hobnob on the west coast producing some of the top agility dogs in the country, Rebecca came to my rescue, turning on the light and pointing me in the right direction- away from sport breeders. See the light, listen to what they are saying I did ---thanks again Rebecca

[kajarrel]

One final observation - this conversation has proceeded largely as a series of "opinions" and anecdotes; however, there's a whole field of scientific study linking genetics (breeding) to behavior (herding). The suggestion that herding ability is largely the product of “nurture” vs. “nature” just doesn’t hold water. And more anecdotes won't convince me otherwise - show me the scientific studies supporting this.

 

BTW, mjk - I think you've got it right.

 

Kim

[stockdogranch]

KCKeller:

I agree with Denise's statement. You're talking about "championship herding," and the statements you make (as far as training, Corgi's being great working dogs still, and breeding being maybe 1/3 of what makes up a working dog) are in line with someone who has absolutely no flipping idea of what a REAL WORKING BC is. Yes, those dogs that are sports bred and conformation bred can indeed get themselves around an AKC A course, reasonably well, in fact, and look pretty cool doing it. Incredibly dog broke sheep have a LOT to do with that. BUT, the vast majority of them CANNOT do the type of work that "real BCs" do, whether that is on the Open trial field or in a REAL working situation. There is just no comparison--it truly is like apples and oranges. BUT, if you're never been exposed to REAL working BCs, and have only seen the AKC version of "herding," I can see exactly how/why you say what you do.

 

Tell ya what--if you're such a great trainer/breeder, then come on out to some USBCHA trials. Heck, if breeding is only 1/3 of the package, then come give a USBCHA cattle trial a shot. If it's all in the trainer, then you ought to be able to train your versatile champions to work to that level. Is your name on the run orders for the Cattle Finals in two weeks? Oh, thought not.

 

Meanwhile, this is too frustrating for me. I need to go work some dogs and take care of livestock.

 

A

 

ETA: for the rest of y'all--keep up the good fight

[mosstheboss2000]

I would also like to address some specific points here. First, the debate between sport and working is just plain silly. To suggest that one is superior to the other or one degrades the breed is an insult to the dogs themselves. I have worked with champion dogs that were equally adept in the show ring as they were on the agility course, playing fly ball, or herding. Breeding isn’t everything, people. In fact, it maybe makes up about a third of a dog's potential, probably less. You can breed for temperament and coloration, but everything else is unique to the dogs, just like we all have different passions and talents. Breeding two herding champions doesn't guarantee that your pups will have a strong herding instinct. In fact, some of my best herders have come from two show dogs.

 

Does breeding help and does it determine a few things? Yes. But more is left on the shoulders of the owner and trainer than on the sire and bitch.

 

Finally, I want to address a few things about shelters and rescue agencies. I think they are fantastic and do a great service. In fact, my kennel also runs a rescue and foster system. I wish I saw you all suggesting shelters because someone wanted to help a dog, or because you think a shelter dog would be well suited to what the person wanted. I don't see that. I see you all suggesting shelters because a person wants to do fly ball with a dog. What is wrong with you people? How many of you actually have rescue dogs?

 

Clearly this is exactly what the majority? disagree with on the board but I too agree...

genetics as everyone has pointed out are genetics.

I would like to also add that if sport homes love these dogs for all the traits they were bred for... then if a sport home bred generation after generation to create some else... something foaming and demonic! Clearly people would not be loving these dogs.... because many if not all of the traits that makes a good 'working' dog also makes a very good agility dog.

In Ontario I clearly have a WAY smaller pool of 'breeders' and dogs in general that I am working with... I can' t even begin to imagine things over the border.

Everone if you haven't done so recently read Eminent Dogs Dangerous Men by Donal McCaig...

Great book!

[Eileen Stein]

KCKeller,

 

If you have deduced from reading this thread that the people posting to it do not love their dogs, then your powers of observation and deduction are not good enough for me to credit ANY opinion you state.

[Shoofly]

You aren't talking to just another owner here. I'm a breeder with several champion dogs in "sport," "show," and "working" categories. I've raised champion herders and champion show dogs. Sometimes they were the same dog. This isn't just opinionated ramblings, this is an informed statement.

 

No, obviously it's not. Your version of "herding" and "champion herders" is quite different from mine. It's like a sprinter coming on here and telling me how to train and run a 26 mile marathon.

 

I stand by what I said: you cant take the work out of a working dog. Its all a matter of you not wasting their natural talents. Agility and games both reinforce herding attributes such as agility, perception, and intellect. Just because a dog isnt acting as that mobile fence does not mean that they are not still the same working dogs they might have been if they were.

 

See my last comment. There's a heck of a lot more to my "herding" than agility, perception and intellect. Forget instinct. How do you measure TALENT without actually training and testing the actual thing you want talent for? Just because you can run fast for 100 yards, is that enough to say you'd most definitely go out and win a marathon?

 

Now, I do want to say that I do see where you are coming from. Trials and tests are a ways away from getting out into the field and working, but they do show that the potential to get out there and work remains. It just needs to be utilized.

 

The kennel club tests and trials i've seen didn't tell me much more than the dogs knew how to lie down when told and could follow trained sheep around. Hardly what i'd call a test. But yes, i will agree they show that the dog has the "potential" to possibly be trained further, or at least more potential than the dogs that run screaming from sheep or want to savage them. So what?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

To KCKeller:

 

First, my heart dog and many others that followed him, have all been rescues. Ben's been my main herding dog for 10 years now, and just has been slowly passing the reins over to the young Turk Ted in the last couple months.

 

Oh, yeah, I actually do have a small sheep farm. Many of us here do. One would probably be advised to read some of the rest of the Board, before coming on here largely anonymously and flinging about statements like, "How many of you have rescues? You don't love your dogs! How many of you actually have sheep [although admittedly, there are some here with cattle/poultry/pigs, not sheep]?"

 

I agree with Denise. You may not be aware that you actually may be hurting your cause. I'm afraid you are making yourself sound rather ridiculous comparing the "instinct" of a Welsh Corgi with what the potential of a well-bred Border Collie.

 

Some of us are thinking you may not have seen any examples of real livestock work, so you can understand that no matter how much training a dog has, breeding still affects his ability to work at distances, make choices about controlling the stock, accept the pressure of difficult situations and advanced training. Hard to believe if you really do live in the UK - most there are aware of ISDS trials at least through One Man and His Dog.

 

Some of us are thinking you've visited the Magical Land of Unicorns and Fairies where if wishes were horses, then any random bred "herding breed" could gather sheep off a hill or drive them 5 miles to market.

 

Some of are thinking you have never trained a dog to high levels of livestock work, yourself. If you did, you'd know that the complete genetic package comes into play at every stage of training. There are many, many times that you start with a dog that looks well the first time or even the twentieth time on sheep - but possesses some vital flaw that one can only see in the higher levels of training: certain types of pressure sensitivity, a personality that lacks just enough "give" to take the handler's assistance at long distances.

 

I've worked with and talked to handlers and trainers who love and are dedicated to other breeds that have focused on conformation or "versatility." They freely admit that their breeds are limited, that the reverse of what you assert, is true - that training can only go so far, and eventually purposeful breeding will tell, and that losing sight of that will inevitably affect the whole breed in time.

 

ETA: moss:

Everone if you haven't done so recently read Eminent Dogs Dangerous Men by Donal McCaig...

 

Mr. McCaig's stance on breeding Border Collies exclusively for working livestock, is well known. It would be interesting to hear what you think is in this marvelous book (which I also highly recommend), that would support anything you have been saying.

[Eileen Stein]

It occurs to me that people who don't know how border collies are trained for work might be interested in how it's done. Denise has put up a series of videos following the progress of her training with her pup May. I think that for those with eyes to see it illustrates how very different training a useful sheepdog is from training for things like agility -- how what you are really doing is summoning the dog's genetic abilities rather than conditioning it to perform certain actions in a certain order. You can find the videos here.

[Dalesred]

I really shouldn't get involved here.

But the county in South West Wales is called Pembroke, not Pembrook.

And in all my life, I have never, ever seen a working ,ahem, corgi in the principality.

[C Crocker]

That's great! The herding championships ... where were they held? What kind were they? Were they recent? Who sanctioned them? How many sheep did you work? What kind of courses were they? Please ... tell us all about them!

 

 

I do not know the poster, but if the trialing was done in the UK, Ireland or USA as the poster wrote , the only herding championships to be won are the Nat'l Championship ( Nursery or Open) in the USA and the Nat'l Ch from each of the UK nations and Ireland, or the Internat'l Supreme in the UK.

 

Other than those trials, there are a few big trials here, such as Soldier Hollow and others that refer to the winner as the Champion of that trial as the Open Champion.

 

So maybe the poster won one of those trials?

 

Carolyn