Reputable breeders in my area?

[jdarling]

So maybe the poster won one of those trials?

 

Yes! I am so excited to hear her response I can hardly stand it! Did you see what she said earlier?

 

In fact, some of my best herders have come from two show dogs.

 

I don't want to jinx anything ... but I think we finally have greatness in our midst. I know we've never had a Finals Champion from show lines, so I am just chomping at the bit at the very thought. Perhaps the reason she doesn't want to identify herself is because of the instant fame she will undoubtedly experience.

[AllieMackie]

Whoa, I go to bed and wake up to this...

 

Well, just FYI, I'm withholding judgement on a lot of opinions until I meet with Werner and some OVBCC members (I won't be meeting Amanda until June). I'm also waiting to hear back from a combination breeder that shows a lot of promise.

 

I would like to note...

 

KCKeller, I would just like to say that we have never said that sports breeders are going to end the Border Collie race for good, and take along every working breeder with it.

 

imagine a world where all the "border collies" are attractive, athletic, sound, trainable, high drive dogs, that make great pets when they aren't competing- but they really aren't that special at working stock.

 

If that's OK with you, then I can see why you're having trouble with this thread.

 

But that's the "best case scenario" for long term sports-focussed breeding, and its not really a nice idea for those of us that have (or value) border collies as a working dog.

 

This is the overall idea I'm still getting from this thread. And I still think it's an unfair opinion, and that the dogs are still great dogs, just bred for a different purpose. I haven't been convinced, and I'm a pretty convinceable person (notice I'm looking at working breeders now?).

[Shoofly]

This is the overall idea I'm still getting from this thread. And I still think it's an unfair opinion, and that the dogs are still great dogs, just bred for a different purpose. I haven't been convinced, and I'm a pretty convinceable person (notice I'm looking at working breeders now?).

 

Allie i think it's great that you're learning something from this thread. I think that's why folks around here keep at it over and over.

 

So, consider this. If the border collie is a breed created for a PURPOSE (working stock) and is *defined* by that PURPOSE (working stock), then how can you say "just bred for a different purpose"? Please try to understand, "bred for another purpose" is not a border collie.

 

This is the problem - most breeds are defined by how they look. Border collies are defined by what they DO.

[Laurae]

With all due respect, AllieMackie, many people have responded to your "Goshdarnit, I just don't understand why sports breeders are not in the best interest of the breed" statement over and over again in many, many different ways. In the face of so many explanations that you clearly don't want to hear, it seems like you're going to believe and do what you want to believe and do. Asking people to repeat the same thing over and over again seems ridiculous at this point.

[Sue R]

Dalesred - Thank you for injecting a bit of reality into the comments about the wonderful working ability that still must exist in all Welsh Corgis (I mean, you "can't breed the work out of them" or some such nonsense), because I've never seen it except at most rudimentary levels. Of course, there are some talented dogs (with talented handlers) but, again, how many of them have "proven their worth" on course-broke stock and really could not do a genuine bit of work on common farm/ranch stock?

[Maralynn]

The essence of the breed is defined by the work that they do. Insted of breeding to a standard of looks they have been bred to a standard of work - stock work. It has been this way for quiet a while now. It has only been in the last 20 years or so that sport persons have noticed that these dogs (bred for years to work sheep) could excel at sports. And now instead of breeding dogs that can work stock to a high level (something that has to be seen or experiened to understand the best) dogs are being bred because they can run fast at flyball or are an agility champs.

 

I'm not saying that these folks don't care about their dogs and that the dogs don't live great lives, but they are not breeding to the standard by which the breed was developed. And every step you take away from that standard the farther away you get from the essence of the breed.

 

What has happend to other breeds when they have gotten away from the original breeding goals?

 

Breeding for stock work has produced a breed that can excel at just about anything. It has given them the traits that you admire in the breed. Sport breeders may produce a dog that is pretty darn close for now, but what will it be like 50 years down the road?

[G. Festerling]

I am going to attempt to stay out of the discussion. Just don't have nearly enough time to put my thoughts on page.

 

However, AllieMackie, completly without any judgement one way or the other from me, have you ever seen a true working dog in action? Not a few dogs at a lesson or even a trial. But a real working dog? Working, not micro managed, assisting its owner in the daily chores? It is not flashy or even very "exciting" but it is for me one of the most amazing and aweinspiring things to watch.

 

Maybe that would give you an understanding not into the dogs as much, but into the way many on this board feel about the breed.

[PSmitty]

I'm not saying that these folks don't care about their dogs and that the dogs don't live great lives, but they are not breeding to the standard by which the breed was developed. And every step you take away from that standard the farther away you get from the essence of the breed.

 

It really doesn't get any simpler than this. That, and Robin's short post a few above.

[juliepoudrier]

^^And that's already been said numerous times and in numerous ways in this thread. At this point I'm beginning to think that if someone doesn't get the argument, they just don't want to get it.

 

Do a little test. Think about a breed that was historically used for something, say poodles for retrieving. How many retrieving poodles do you know of today? Ever wonder why that is? Because of people with the attitude that "it doesn't matter if we start breeding for size, or color, or companionship, some other purpose, those other genetics will still be there." If that supposition is true, then any hunter ought to be able to go buy himself a poodle and expect he'd have himself a good retrieving dog. And it just ain't so.

 

In fact, here's a link to the Poodle History Project. Go to the home page and see all the things poodles were historically used for. I wonder how many, if any, of those things apply today? And that's just one breed out of many.

 

I think I'm done with this thread.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

^^And that's already been said numerous times and in numerous ways in this thread. At this point I'm beginning to think that if someone doesn't get the argument, they just don't want to get it.

 

Exactly.

[sandyleew]

I have been reading this thread for the last few days and although I know nothing about stock work, I am a strong supporter of only breeding proven dogs for all the obvious reasons already stated. What bothers me the most about this is the fact that there are so many wonderful dogs in rescue that could easily fill these needs. I wish I had statistics, but I am sure there are dogs that are champions at flyball, agility, disc dog, & dock dog that are rescues. I know of rescued dogs on other forums that excel in these areas. I just don't understand why there are these posts all the time with people saying they want a puppy so they can train it from the beginning and therefore do not want a rescue. There are puppies in rescue, but even so, isn't it better to get a dog that you know has the qualities that you are looking for.

[AllieMackie]

Allie i think it's great that you're learning something from this thread. I think that's why folks around here keep at it over and over.

 

So, consider this. If the border collie is a breed created for a PURPOSE (working stock) and is *defined* by that PURPOSE (working stock), then how can you say "just bred for a different purpose"? Please try to understand, "bred for another purpose" is not a border collie.

 

This is the problem - most breeds are defined by how they look. Border collies are defined by what they DO.

 

Now, this is true. And replying informally to others who posted below you - yes, I have seen working border collies in action. I'm a knitter, and know a few folks who keep sheep and goats for fibre production. I've watched them say nothing but "get 'em up!" and the dog doing -exactly- what it's supposed to do with no further direction. It's pretty awesome in it's own right, and that's what I mean by the fact that I understand the notion of holding the integrity of the breed - you couldn't put just any dog in that situation and expect it to perform as flawlessly as a border collie has been "trained" through years and years, to do.

 

I guess my main point is, if people want to breed dogs for sports, and there are people willing to buy dogs from sport breeders, and they are happy with their dogs, than why can't people breed their dogs for sports? You guys pointed out that they certainly don't lie about their dogs being good sport dogs, and they don't try to push the herding aspect.

 

There are other dogs that are bred for various purposes, I'm just wondering why the border collie can't be the same. As long as there's sheep/livestock to be worked, working border collie breeders will still be around. And I'm not just saying that, because as most of you know, the working border collie breeders ARE the people who have sheep/livestock to be worked.

 

Just babbling out my thoughts on it, I guess.

[Smokjbc]

There are other dogs that are bred for various purposes, I'm just wondering why the border collie can't be the same. As long as there's sheep/livestock to be worked, working border collie breeders will still be around. And I'm not just saying that, because as most of you know, the working border collie breeders ARE the people who have sheep/livestock to be worked.

 

Just babbling out my thoughts on it, I guess. ( AllieMackie)

 

 

I guess most of us want the border collie to remain a breed apart- not like the other breeds, who by "diversifying" have really only resulted in a dilution of the original type. Also- unlike Melanie- instead of getting "oh, those are the dogs that work sheep", I hear more and more "Oh, those smart dogs that do the jumps". Even my mother and my boss, who both know I own sheep, have asked me "I saw some agility on Animal Planet, is that what you do with your dogs?" I believe that the general urban public has a hard time wrapping their heads around what our dogs do as working sheep/cow dogs. I would hate to see agility and flyball become what the border collie is known for- what the public defines the border collie as. The more vocal we are about what the border collie does and is bred to do- the better chance we have at preserving that purpose driven dog.

[Lenajo]

There are other dogs that are bred for various purposes, I'm just wondering why the border collie can't be the same.

 

Sure they can be as unhealthy and unsuable for their work as the rest of the AKC and Kennel Club "show" breeds. The question is, why would you want them to be?

 

As long as there's sheep/livestock to be worked, working border collie breeders will still be around. And I'm not just saying that, because as most of you know, the working border collie breeders ARE the people who have sheep/livestock to be worked.

 

Just 16 years ago, I farmed with my first herding dog, a *working* Australian Shepherd. She was just a little common Aussie from local bloodlines. She was smart as a whip, managed 300 goats with ease for a novice dog herder. For fun we also did agility and obedience. She is still living, *healthy* at 17, yes SEVENTEEN, years of age. All this was very common for that type of dog of that breed.

 

Now the Aussie has been "new and improved" over the last 16 years by the efforts of show, sport, and versatility breeders like you want us to respect for the Border Collie. Now the average age an Aussie lives to is, if you are lucky, 12. No longer is the standard of ability above common, but *rare*. Most of them won't herd to a useful level for farmwork, and those that do often have only parts and pieces of what they should. They may have a functional outrun, but no rate or pace, or they have grit/authority but no outrun, or they can't control themselves and savage the stock, or run away in fear of authoritative stock or trainers. I love that breed, but I'll be honest and say I hate to see them coming for lessons because they typically either nearly break me trying to hurt my stock, or they break their owner's hearts when they find out that "Old Shep" is really useless no matter what his price tag or pedigree stated

 

Finding a good herding Aussie should be easy, but now unless a farmer has time for an extensive search and is willing to pay much $$$ he's wasting his time. And since farmers have little time or cash extra, they just scrap the breed and buy another breed

 

Gee...new and "improved"????

 

"It doesn't matter because most don't need a herding Aussie"? Well, it only matters if you wanted the brains and well linked body that made a good working dog. Doing Agility? Hope your dog can link drive and biddibility together well. I watched an Aussie club agility trial one weekend and am not pleased to state that the same problems as in herding were occurring. Try no brain and all drive...or all brain and no drive...or maybe can't handle frustration...or blows up on adversity... think those traits would have been screened out by a real working breeder? you bet!

 

Every breed of usefullness that went ot the hands of the type of breeders and breeding you want us to respect and accept has been ruined irreparably. When you buy from those people you are as guilty as if you put the dogs in the breeding pen yourself.

 

 

Just babbling out my thoughts on it, I guess.

 

Yes, you are.

[vanillalove]

I'm just wondering why the border collie can't be the same.

 

Simply because we don't want them to be the same and we want to keep it that way.

 

I'm done with this thread also! I'm not frustrated, I'm just over this conversation, haha. Goodluck AllieMackie, I hope you find the dog of your dreams, sincerely. It's good that you're doing your homework and because of everything you're doing, you'll be a good owner to a dog (no matter where you get it) The whole debate is very confusing, I didn't get it before either! I honestly didn't get the big idea and the hype on working bred pups. But if you treasure Border Collies, like you say you do and want one, then you'd want to preserve it, right? Hopefully?

 

Anyways, best of luck!

[scoutsmyboy]

I have recently acquired my second BC from a Breeder in Hastings Ontario. Those posters who are familiar with Amanda Milliken may know of who I speak. My first BC - 'Scout" was a great male , smart as whip , great with kids , my left arm, my shadow, my best friend. unfortunately my boy Scout succumb to Canine lymphosarcoma on March 18th. (the saddest day of my life) My newest BC "Pete" came from the same breeder and shows great natural instinct and energy. I am still missing Scout but keep positive with the thoughts of working up Pete.

 

On the subject of breeding, I had a fellow approach me a number of years ago, outta the blue, oogling all over Scout, eventually getting around to asking me if he could use Scout as a stud-- this guy did not farm, had no respect for the breed or really their ability and was just looking to make a quick buck pedalling the litter. I listened to him and then with a quiet word in Scout's ear, that great BC put the run on that SOB and that was the end of that.

[FoxgloveBC]

I just want to say that I am not 100% for sports breeding, but not 100% against it. It really depends on the breeder to me. I have heard of sports breeders breeding just for dogs for themselves and then just getting rid of the puppies who didnt turn out good enough and letting other people have them. Those are the breeders that I do not agree with.

 

Let's go on to my little Border Collie Foxy.

 

Technically most people would say she is from a sports breeder. They are big into agility and such, they do herding as well...but it is AKC and I know it is not looked highly upon. However, my Foxy is not from the sports lines. She is actually from a breeding that is from two outside dogs that are really from working lines. The sire is a Holmans dog, who I really like a lot of the dogs that have those lines or lines close to that. I have seen some really great agility dogs out of them and they also had titles in herding as well (not AKC titles either.) So yeah my dog was bred by a "sports breeder" but is actually working lines. I actually chose her because of her breeding, I really liked the cross and I researched the pedigrees of the parents and even talked to the sires breeder as well. I dont have a problem with the breeders who do continuously bring in dogs from working lines, but mainly sell to people who do sports. Agility is a big deal to my dogs (My sheltie acts like it is a life or death thing if he can do it or not...LOL) I feel like these "sports breeders" are ok and I like them and their dogs as well (just my opinion) However, I dont like the ones who breed and breed and breed. There are some that CONSTANTLY have litters on the ground. I dont see a problem in 2-3 litters a year though. There are some breeders though, that are labeled sports breeders, who are being responsible and still maintaining good work ethic with their dogs and also produce dogs who arent keyed up 24/7 as well.

 

Im not backing anyone up or taking any sides, but I dont think ALL the sports breeders are bringing shame to Border Collies. All I know, is I got the exact dog that I wanted in Foxy and she was the absolute perfect match for me. She is gung ho about everything I have asked her, and we are definitely going to try out some herding with her, and I have a feeling she is going to take to it like crazy. She has loved every challenge I have given her and that is the exact attitude I wanted in her. That is all I was looking for, and everyone is all happy here.

[Lenajo]

multiple litters each year

 

numerous designer colors

 

no proof of even adequete herding ability in breeding pairs, though does manage to occassionally find an outside stud or buy a female with some.

 

hmmmm......just where I'm heading for my next dog!

 

Martini Rationalization anyone? It comes with a nice crisp olive of titledness on the side!

[AllieMackie]

multiple litters each year

 

numerous designer colors

 

no proof of even adequete herding ability in breeding pairs, though does manage to occassionally find an outside stud or buy a female with some.

 

hmmmm......just where I'm heading for my next dog!

 

Martini Rationalization anyone? It comes with a nice crisp olive of titledness on the side!

 

Whoa. I thought -I- was being snarky.

[Lenajo]

Whoa. I thought -I- was being snarky.

 

It's easy to be snarky when the facts are in front of you on the website. The fact that you are more concerned about my tone than the facts says a lot more.

[stockdogranch]

...and they also had titles in herding as well (not AKC titles either.)

 

The only "titles" awarded for "herding" are AKC, ASCA or AHBA. For all three venues, the level of competence is the same--somewhere between none and minimal. Super dog-broke sheep following the handler around the arena, while a dog just happens to be in the arena also. None of this qualifies as WORKING STOCK,

 

A

[appyridr]

Hi,

This has been an interesting topic and understandable why it evokes a great deal of emotion and passion.

 

> I've watched them say nothing but "get 'em up!" and the dog doing -exactly- what it's supposed to do with no further direction. It's pretty awesome in it's own right,

 

It is indeed pretty awesome. And it is a tough thing to maintain even when someone is making the very best breeding choices. It is fear of losing this quality that people are worried about.

 

>I guess my main point is, if people want to breed dogs for sports, and there are people willing to >buy dogs from sport breeders, and they are happy with their dogs, than why can't people breed their dogs for sports?

 

I understand your perplexity. I agree with you - they can be nice people who love their dogs and produce healthy, nice temperments etc. A number of them even bring 'working' lines into their breeding program. So I would ask, why do they see the need for that? What is it about a working dog that they think beneficial or even crucial in maintaining in their program? Could it be marketing? Could it be that they see their 'sport' line needing a little shot of 'work'?

I have a problem with breeder websites that claim 'working ability' or 'herding' but offer no real proof of it. 99% of their photos show agility or sport activities, yet they make claims they truly cannot prove. Knowing that not all puppies in every 'working' litter will turn out to be good working prospects, how can you claim to have 'herding lines' if you do not test that puppy?

Could you possibly find the dog you are looking for at one of those 'sport' kennels, sure. But is it possible that it might turn out to have OCD or too much drive/not enough brains, sure. Could you have the same good luck or bad luck getting a dog from a working kennel, sure. BUT if you asked my advice, I would say you would have a better chance of getting what you are looking for in the working kennel.

regards Lani

[jdarling]

Hey Anna, I see you're on the AHBA judges' list. Wanna come judge our fall trial?

 

::ducking::

::running::

::giggling the whole time::

[juliepoudrier]

You can judge it and still call it like it is.

 

J.

[mjk05]

Technically most people would say she is from a sports breeder.....However, my Foxy is not from the sports lines. She is actually from a breeding that is from two outside dogs that are really from working lines.

 

She's still sports bred, if she's bred primarily for sports homes. The issue isn't what lines the dogs have behind them, its the intent of the breeding.

 

I have a few dogs here. They are all working bred, most of them have successful trial dogs as their parents/grandparents. All our dogs work on the farm. Some are better than others, each has certain strengths and weaknesses.

 

So, if I decide to breed Spot, with the aim of producing dogs to work on surrounding farms and to give me a new trial dog, I will look at his strengths and weaknesses in terms of stock work, and choose a mate that I believe will complement these traits, to produce the best working sheepdogs possible. If they aren't that pretty, or they don't have much drive for things like toys or agility, its not going to matter.

 

But- if I'm breeding for the agility market , agility traits will matter more than working ones. I will choose the best mate for Spot in terms of producing fast, driven, and probably attractive agility dogs, and compromise with other things, like working traits. That doesn't mean Spot and his mate aren't great sheepdogs, they may well both be very good dogs on stock- but they probably won't compliment each other as well as a different combination, and as a result, their offspring are likely to be less consistently good as stockdogs than if those from the first mating, the "working" one.

 

That doesn't mean there won't be the odd good sheepdog among them, or that they will all be useless, just that the overall collection of working traits is likely to be weaker or less consistent than those I'd expect from a working breeding. Each generation of sports (or show, or pet) breeding will weaken things a little more, and eventually you'll have dogs that may well feature great working dogs in their pedigree, but are not close to being working bred.

 

Does that make sense? BTW, I'm sure Foxy's still a LOVELY dog This isn't about individual dogs, its about concepts of breeding.

 

The other thing to note is that most sports breeders don't actually demand that much of their dogs in terms of stockwork. They may have a few livestock and do a few trials, but if they do agility to any high level they are usually very busy with that. So they may not be assessing their dogs' working traits as accurately as someone whose only concern is working livestock.

 

 

AllieMackie-

part of my issue with sports breeding is that so many people seem to think along the lines of KCKeller (if she really exists). They'll tell you their dogs work, they'll sell pups as having working ability, and in the end newcomers to the breed, looking for a working dog, get disappointed.

 

Yes, puppy buyers should do their research, but its easy to be mislead. No, not all sports/show/pet breeders delude themselves or their puppy buyers about their dogs' ability- but some do, and I know people who have been mislead, and others who are deluding themselves.

 

Plus, it erodes the public opinion about what a border collie is. Coming from the city, where the show/pet variety are very common, and the agility scene, where its still mainly show/sports breeding, I know that the image of border collies is very different to the working reality (people truly think that smooth coats, prick ears, various colours or shapes means cross-bred- hence all the rubbish about how working border collies have changed so much in recent years). Plus everyone seems to think that what they see at instinct tests is proof of great working ability (like its a yes/no quantity- you have it or not), and the difference between their show bred dogs and ours is just that ours get "time on sheep".

 

We don't have a lot of sports breeding over here, but it already seems to cause much confusion for everybody.