Question about BC puppy

[mom2lillie]

Hi Folks! We have a 6 month old male BC pup. He is the greatest thing to happen to our family. We are really thinking about adding another to the mix. His parents just had another litter on Christmas day & we are trying to decide if we should get a pup from this litter or wait for the next. What would you do? We are definitely prepared for another puppy but is it better to wait for another littler? We also don't know if we should get another male or a female. Advice please! A little history...our male - Jack - was just neutered. He is such a great dog. He has been through 2 puppy classes so far & is starting a puppy confidence & agility class as well as a Canine Good Citizen training class in 2 weeks. We plan on trying out agility & flyball and doing both if he loves both or letting him just choose one if he doesn't like both. We have an almost 4 yr old daughter whom he adores (and of course she loves him!) We want to do the right thing by Jack - since we already have him & love him. Don't want to traumatize him. Please give me any suggestions you have.

 

Thanks!

Carrie

[Mudpups]

We have a nearly five month old BC pup, who is a one in a million dog, and without a doubt the greatest thing that has happened to our family, so I can totally relate to what you are saying. I waited over 30 years to be able to provide the right home for a BC, and I can think of nothing better than adding another one or six to our family, and we were seriously considering adding a little girl early next year.

 

But after lots of thought, we have decided that it would not be fair to Taj to add another young dog to the house at this stage. He is such a good pup, and he deserves our undivided attention. We do have another dog, a Shar-Pei who is very laid back and calm, with little to no interest in the things that we do with Taj, beyond just sitting and watching - about the complete opposite of what another BC would be:)

 

Having another dog in the family will change your pups behaviour - not necessarily that this will be bad (although I think having two young puppies together is probably asking for trouble), but we've personally made the decision to wait until Taj is at least 1 year old before re-considering adding another one, just so that we give him time to grow into the brilliant adult dog that I believe he will be. While I am no longer actively looking at rescue dogs, I do believe that the universe works in mysterious ways and if an adult BC with the right personality needing rescue came our way...

 

LOL. Border Collies are addictive, so maybe if you really want another one, an older rescue dog would be better than another young puppy. Or wait for a future breeding of your pups parents - any responsible breeder would be giving the pups mother time off after having two litters in six months.

[MaggieDog]

The fact that your dog's parents had another litter only 6 months after his, concerns me. Is there a specific reason the dam was bred again on her next heat (dogs generally go into heat roughly every 6 months)?

 

Other than that concern, I do tend to recommend people only adopt/buy a second dog when the first is fully trained. Trying to work through adolescent behavior with a new puppy in the house, especially with 2 BCs is enough to drive many people crazy!

 

I generally keep my dog additions spaced out by about 4 or 5 years for the training reason, but also so I don't have two dogs going into their senior years at the same time down the road. My family adopted my dog Maggie when Oreo was 5yo, Gryffin was added when Maggie was 4yo and Oreo was 9yo, and Z was added when Maggie was 8yo (after I moved out).

[Lenajo]

I'd wait at least a year, maybe 18 months.

 

6 months apart and both of them will be in the same stages at once. 6 months however is considerably bigger, and it's likely the older pup will use the little one as a living chew toy. You will end up having to seperate them all the time - to play, to be trained, to rest. That's no fun for a family atmosphere.

 

BCs will go through puppy stages for up to 2 years. Get successfully to 2 years and be as happy with the dog you have before adding another.

[Shetlander]

I agree that waiting until the first pup is mature and fully trained is the best bet for a happy, harmonious pack. I also am concerned that your pup's mother was bred so quickly after her litter. From the (very) little I know about breeding, that is not at all optimal for the mother's health.

 

So I'd say for now enjoy your wonderful pup as a solo dog and once he is settled and through all the teen behaviors, look at adding to your family.

[SincereArtisan]

It also concerns me that your dog's dam was bred back-to-back... No matter the reason, I just don't consider that responsible breeding.

[Lenajo]

Actually you guys are off the mark. Per reproductive specialists it is more healthy to breed a female 2 successive heats, and then spay. The unproductive heats are more likely to cause problems than the litters.

 

I'm casting no good or bad virtues on the breeder involved, just stating that back to back breedings are not indicators of bad breeding practices.

 

Lets just address the question involved - to get a puppy or not.

[Shetlander]

Lets just address the question involved - to get a puppy or not.

 

I believe we're allowed to voice concerns about breeders. Lots of threads on these boards would support that belief.

[Lenajo]

I believe we're allowed to voice concerns about breeders. Lots of threads on these boards would support that belief.

 

You can do anything you darn well please, including taking this totally off topic on assumptions about a breeder that you don't know (nor do I) based on "facts" and that aren't facts at all. The "fact" is, based on a dogs reproductive cycle it is healthier to have successive breedings that non-productive heats. The dog has the same stress each heat, pregnant or not, and increased risk of cancer and pyometra each time. It is therefore better, per leading canine reproductive specialists, to breed "all you are going to, then spay". Better, as the female is healthier, had less cancer and pyometra risk.

 

There may be other problems with this breeder, or not, we don't know. You cannot flay them, well at least not ethically and with facts, based on an isolated description of a 2 successive litters.

 

Voicing concern starts with getting the facts.

 

The question was whether to get a new puppy when the first was 6 months old. The answer is no, it is not a good idea. The reasons for that have been well explained.

[juliepoudrier]

But then there is the part about waiting for the next litter, which implies that the bitch will be bred yet again. I'm sorry, but someone who's breeding a dog repeatedly isn't a breeder I'd be getting a pup from. And I think who to get the putp from is just as valid a concern as *when* to get that next pup.

 

J.

[Shetlander]

You can do anything you darn well please, including taking this totally off topic on assumptions about a breeder that you don't know (nor do I) based on "facts" and that aren't facts at all.

 

Wow. Why are you so upset over a few mildly worded concerns about back to back breeding? I think most of my post was on topic enough to meet your standards. And even if it didn't, I agree with Julie that it is important to look at both where we get our puppies as well as when.

 

You cannot flay them, well at least not ethically and with facts, based on an isolated description of a 2 successive litters.

 

Flay? Ethically? Good grief. Again why such a big reaction to a few people saying they don't think back to back breeding is good for the dog? I made it clear I wasn't an expert on breeding and I have no intention of arguing over the "facts" with someone who clearly feels much more confident in their knowledge on the subject. However, I have read elsewhere that back to back breeding can be hard on the mother and the comment about 2, possibly 3 back to back litters raised a red flag for me.

 

Voicing concern starts with getting the facts.

 

So in your book, we're not supposed to say, wait a minute, that might be a problem if we hear something that doesn’t sound right to us? Are all your conversations held to such a rigorous standard? The comments about the breeding weren't to attack a breeder or upset the poor OP who might be regretting her question about now. The comments arose from concern for the well-being of dogs and I honestly do not understand why this would merit so much anger.

[Lunar]

Lenajo, you seem far too defensive over some politely worded opinions. Chill. No one was being rude, just voicing concerns - which we are well known for doing on this forum when it concerns the breeding of border collies.

 

Personally, beyond the concerns of the breeder, I would not get a second pup when my first was only 6 months. You still have adolescence to get through. It may not be a big deal, but it might be... I've done it twice (10 years apart!) and I wouldn't want to have a second pup at the same time! It was draining enough as it was.

[RaisingRiver]

First to address the back to back breedings as being irresponsible. No one is saying the dog can't handle the breedings. The issue is that it sounds like a back yard breeder just churning out dogs because they can and/or there is the demand. Not because we need more of this dam's pups in the world to make it a better place. Also, the breeding of specifically BCs should be based on the parents workability PERIOD. That said, responsible BC breeders don't breed several times a year to simply churn out litters. Posting on this forum immediately opens the door to bring up this fact. Didn't everyone 'READ THIS FIRST' section?

 

Secondly, to the original poster. I would wait until my first dog is completely trained. For some people and some dogs that may take up to 2 or more years. All dogs go through some regression/rebellion in their training in their teens (typically from 9mos to 15mos old) - this is not a good time to have another pup coming along to mess up their training. Having an established dog with good habits does help with training the new dog - esp things like recalls and socialization of being a dog - and you'll less likely being going out of your mind

[Alaska]

Here's my $.02 on the original question. Your puppy is not even an adolescent yet, and when he does reach that stage, it is likely you will not know what hit you. Typically, all that good behavior one marvels over in a puppy goes out the window as he starts to mature and test his limits. It will quite likely occupy plenty of your attention getting his through that stage, which can last quite a while. If you doubt this, look at how many border collies in rescue were turned over by their oriiginal owners at about the 8-9 month point "because they had too much energy" or something similar.

 

I have heard it said that a border collie is not fully mature until it has a year under each paw, and this fits with my experience. I have also heard it said that one should typically wait about 3 years before adding another dog, as this is about how long it takes to get their training fairly solid, and this also fits with my experience.

[berocca]

A few different views I have on this...

 

While BCs can put off showing their age for a long time, there will come a day when you realise your dog is old and you accept that they wont live forever. I couldn't imagine facing that with 2 dogs at the same time which is what could very well happen with 2 dogs this close in age. One of the ladies I train with has bearded collies and her older boys are 11 and 10.5 years old. She says it is heartbreaking to see them starting to lose their hearing and no longer be able to keep up with the 2 year old dog like they used to. She is now having to deal with the fact that she could lose them at a similar time and is dreading it, no matter how many years down the track it will be.

 

On the other hand, I got Delta a few weeks before Cody turned 2. A week after his birthday he somehow got out and was killed by a car. I don't know how on earth I would have got through that time if I didn't have Delta. She gave me something to throw all my energy into, her socialisation gave me a reason to still go to agility each week, and by the time she started obedience at 4 months she had that much home training under her belt she skipped the first few classes. Training her was my way of dealing with the loss of Cody. I had waited until he was out of the extreme puppyhood and was in advanced classes for the various dog sports before getting another dog. But what if he had died at 18mnths? or 12mnths? I wouldn't have had Delta to cuddle and get me through it. If something were to happen (God Forbid) to your dog then having a second dog can help and you could be kicking yourself for holding off until the first dog was older, only to have them reach that age.

 

By the time Delta was 6 months I was ready for another dog and wanted one to keep her company. I realised, however, that I just would not be able to handle another puppy while she was still so young. She was (and still is) the best puppy I have dealt with; never really chewed anything or destroyed anything and has always been sensible in the house. I still knew that there was too much about the world that I needed to teach her and it wouldn't be fair to her if I got a new puppy.

 

I decided to go for a rescue instead. Charlie was a little over 2 when I got him so he already had some of that maturity about him. He had obviously been loved by his first owner who had put the work into house training him and he is beautifully behaved. I still have the issue of trying to train 2 beginners for the various dog sports but at least I don't have to worry about the everyday training of 2 dogs.

 

If it just a second a dog you are after would you consider a rescue? I personally think it would be the best option at this time.

[Journey]

Welcome to the Boards Carrie!

 

Congratulation on Jack and all you are doing with him. Adding another is a big step if you are not used to a multi dog family. It can be so rewarding or very hair raising Quite a bit really depends on you, your family, outside obligations and life in general. Do you have the time? The patience? The stamina to add another pup? Someone tossed out the idea of adopting and older pup, have you considered this?

 

It's really hard for anyone to say whether or not adding another Border Collie is a good idea or not. Each household is different. You have to just be honest with yourself and not make a heart decision.

 

Good luck in whatever you decide.

 

Karen

[SincereArtisan]

Well, Lenajo, we're here to promote the responsible breeding of BCs, right? And lumped into this 'responsible' category would be the passing on of good herding skills, yes? Well, a dam that is scheduled to be bred two--possibly three-times in a ROW does not sound like she has a lot of time to be doing all that herding and trialing, y'know, the sorta stuff that proves to everyone else she has a right to be passing on those lovely herding capabilities...

 

Sure, we don't know the breeder or the reasons behind all this. It may be she is being bred back to back for the reasons you provided... However, from another point of view, a littler of puppies takes a strong toll on a dog's body. I can't imagine that toll being demanded twice, possibly three times in a row and anyone recommending this...just doesn't seem fair...

 

That said, to answer the OP's question, I really think it depends on you. Rune was 8 months when I wound up with Ido. They were both barely over a year when I wound up with Monkey, who was 6mo at the time. My last two additions were not planned, by any means. But, though at times I wanted to pull my hair out, I think that getting them all in their puppy stages has caused them to get along better...luckily, they were far enough apart and I'd done enough work with them by the time the other arrived that none of their training was set back. However, keep in mind, I got a job at a doggy daycare and later a vet clinic so I would be able to take them to work with me every day. They needed this, and I needed this, if I had any hopes of surviving three puppyhoods back to back....

[Journey]

It also concerns me that your dog's dam was bred back-to-back... No matter the reason, I just don't consider that responsible breeding.

 

Well, the OP sure has gotten a eye opener from this thread

 

I didn't read the OP as an irresponsible owner. A 6 mo old that is already neutered, in classes and they are "doing" things with him? Could be this household is committed to their dog and is a fantastic home? Maybe questions should have been asked before negative comments were issued?

 

Back to back breeding is healthier on the bitch, ask any "reproductive specialist". But somehow this became back to back to back.....The OP said "another litter". Sorry, I just didn't take that to mean a 3 in a row breeding, to me it meant a different litter (if it is 3 in a row then run for the hills!). Sure, flags were raised but research will show that back to back is healthier, not irresponsible. And questions to the OP may have had positive answers.

 

Karen

[Journey]

Sure, we don't know the breeder or the reasons behind all this. It may be she is being bred back to back for the reasons you provided... However, from another point of view, a littler of puppies takes a strong toll on a dog's body. I can't imagine that toll being demanded twice, possibly three times in a row and anyone recommending this...just doesn't seem fair...

 

 

Where did the 3rd breeding come in? Has the OP said it will happen? I must have missed it.....as for "just doesn't seem fair" talk to a "reproductive specialist" and go with facts.

 

Karen

[PDing]

Polo and I are currently staying at a relative's place with 4 month old Golden Poodle (wasn't trained at all) and two things I've noticed:

 

1) The 4 month old puppy benefited from Polo being around since Polo knows various tricks from the classes he's taken. The 4 month old pup learned how to 'sit', 'down', 'shake' and 'beg' by watching Polo doing it.

 

2) Polo's response to recall and tricks decreased dramatically and had to go back to the basics and some of his basic manners went out the door because the other pup doesn't have to do it.

[Bo Peep]

I got my first 3 real quick. That was a mistake. The first one was the best dog I ever had and wanted to know if it was her or the breed, so 6 months later, I got another. The first one was so easy to train, she was very well behaved by the time the 2nd arrived. Then 6 months after that, a 3rd came along. All different breeders, the problem is.......they all die at the same time and you are left heart broken. When they get very old, you don't want to bring a new pup into the house. I wish I would have spaced them out a few more years.

[Eileen Stein]

The "fact" is, based on a dogs reproductive cycle it is healthier to have successive breedings that non-productive heats. The dog has the same stress each heat, pregnant or not, and increased risk of cancer and pyometra each time. It is therefore better, per leading canine reproductive specialists, to breed "all you are going to, then spay". Better, as the female is healthier, had less cancer and pyometra risk.

 

Lenajo and Journey, would you please share your sources?

 

To the best of my knowledge, the bitch does not have the "same stress" from a non-productive heat (even if you consider each non-productive heat includes a "false pregnancy") as from heat, actual pregnancy, delivery and lactation. It's true that a bitch runs the risk of pyometra as long as she remains intact, but her increased risk of cancer levels off after three heats, whether she is spayed or unspayed thereafter. To breed "all you are going to, then spay" is one thing if you are only going to breed twice and then spay; it's quite another if you're going to continue breeding the bitch for years and then spay (or not spay). The OP wrote that "we are trying to decide if we should get a pup from this litter or wait for the next." There is at least the suggestion (though not the certainty, I agree) there that there will be another litter at the bitch's next heat. It certainly suggests that she is not going to be spayed after this litter.

 

I didn't read the OP as an irresponsible owner.

 

Certainly not! No one suggested that she was. She sounds like a terrific owner. Welcome to the Boards, Carrie. I hope you will find these answers helpful, and will continue posting about your pup.

[Journey]

Lenajo and Journey, would you please share your sources?

 

Absolutely! I will scan my info and see if I can paste it in here. Dr. Bev Brimacombe, Lakeland Fl is where some of my info came, as well as the repro specialists at AVS here in Jacksonville. And some input from University of Fl Vet Small Animal Teaching Hospital.

 

Karen

[painted_ponies]

The dog has the same stress each heat, pregnant or not, and increased risk of cancer and pyometra each time. It is therefore better, per leading canine reproductive specialists, to breed "all you are going to, then spay".

 

Wow. You know, this almost reads as though you're saying that a few weeks of estrus produces the same stress on the bitch's system as mating, conception, nine weeks of carrying the pups, labor and delivery, and two to three months of nursing a litter.

 

Which is, of course, ridiculous.

 

To the OP: all I can say is, your 6 month old BC must be way better behaved than mine was if you're even considering adding another! Seriously, I'd wait till the first is about 2 or so and then add another pup.

[INU]

I got my BC when she was 8 weeks old, 2-3 months after I got my lab when he was around 6-7 months old. They were both high-energy puppies. Many people told me it was not a good idea to have 2 puppies at once. I had no problem and I am actually glad that I did. They get along so well because they met when they were pups. I made sure that I spent one-on-one time with each of them. Just my experience.

 

Agree with everyone about the breeder.