Selling dog fur in US!

[Bill Fosher]

Slaughter, like any other job, can be done well or poorly. If carried out in an environment where quantity is more important than quality -- throughput is more important than animal welfare -- animals will suffer and people will get hurt. Slaughtering animals, particularly large animals, is dirty, difficult, and dangerous.

 

Before I will consign my animals to a slaughter plant, I watch the work on the kill floor. Are the animals hustled and man-handled, or are they treated with respect? Are the workers harried and distracted, or are they focused and competent?

 

There's no earthly way that every kill is going to be 100 percent perfect. Some will be botched. But, if I have to be put to death, I'd much rather be a lamb entering one of the slaughterhouses that I use than, say, the half-brother of a deposed Iraqi dictator or a horse thief in the old West.

 

Sometimes the only humane course left to a shepherd is to end the suffering of his animal. I have made it a point to learn how to kill a sheep or a lamb with the least possible amount of conscious suffering. It's not a part of the job that I enjoy, but it is part of the job. Done right, killing can be humane. The lights go out, and never come back on.

 

What can you do about it? Face up to it. Don't price-shop for meat. Buy it from local producers who can tell you about the plants where their products are processed. Most of the small plants that handle farmer accounts are pretty good. But handling animals well takes time and skill, and processing them carefully will cost more.

 

As an added bonus, you'll get better meat than most of what you get out of the case at the big grocery stores.

[Arnpriors]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

[QB] My suggestion to you all is don't look too closely at how leather and meat is harvested in the US. While not as crude as overseas, it usually does not sit well with those who only see the end product (packaged meat and leather shoes) and not the process.>>

 

I seldom post on this board, and this will be my only post on this topic. I have no intention of getting into an argument about this subject.

 

Beating dogs into semi-conciousness, and skinning them alive, is not a *small production* problem, it's completely normal in Asia. That's how it's always done. The only exceptions are, bleeding the dog until it's too weak to retaliate (by far the best option for the dogs) or breaking their legs, and throwing them into a fire. This helps with the removal of fur, once the dog is suitably cooked.

 

If you *don't have a problem with this*, then I would question the feelings you have for dogs. Many of these dogs were bred in the US or Europe, been used for breeding pretty fur, and outlived their usfulness.

 

Reading about this or watching a video is shocking. If you don't find this shocking enough to make you change your mind, then go to the Asian Markets, and see the dogs piled up with their front legs broken.

 

They wag their tails if you speak to them.

 

I've seen it, and it's enough to get you arrested for trying to interfere, and to give you nightmares for the rest of your life.

 

There is NO comparison here, to raising livestock. These dogs are bred and kept in painful and disgusting conditions (those that aren't Imports) and they die in worse conditions.

 

I'd definitely question wearing anything made from dogs, and it can't be vindicated by calling it *cultural difference*

 

worcollie

[sea4th]

Good post Kim. Thank you.

 

It's not as though we are forcing our ways on a totally unsuspecting culture, as unfortunately, it's been throughout history.

 

Most Asian countries are now, by choice, an important part of the world economy. If that's the case, then the rest of the world that they deal with has a right to voice concerns, and speak with their $$$, and not just to Asian countries, any country we deal with.

 

So if the message gets across that we westerners are abhorred by some of the ways by which their goods are produced and won't spend on money on them, well then maybe and hopefully, that would get their attention enough to examine the issue bring about a change.

 

I would think that's one of the many facets, good and bad, of being part of the global economy. Always evolving, always changing.

 

And as Kim says, always an uphill battle.

 

Off to sunny So. Cal. now.

 

Later.

[Eileen Stein]

 

I believe there is one human culture. It is as fluid as mercury and as varied as there are individuals on the planet.

 

A critic of postmodernism and its "enshrining of cultural difference" has written that the postmodern "concept of culture is not ... a critique of racism, it is a form of racism." >>

 

Wow. What postmodernism has to do with it I'm not sure, but having lived in another culture, and having traveled extensively and had good lifelong friends in others, it is absolutely impossible for me not to notice that there are norms, conduct and beliefs that characterize those cultures and contrast with those in our culture. (Certainly not everyone in any particular culture subscribes to the cultural norms, anymore than everyone in our meat-eating culture thinks it's okay to eat meat, but they ARE the prevailing norms.) So noticing this, and discussing it, makes me a racist, a xenophobe, one who is indifferent or blind to animal cruelty in my own country but eager to demonize others, and a disappointment to right-thinking people who deny that cultural differences exist?

 

Wow.

[Eileen Stein]

Okay, let me try to go beyond the unhelpful "Wow" in trying to figure out what's going on here.

 

Suppose there were a country somewhere, Country A. Suppose in that country it was accepted practice to eat dogs, and to kill them by skinning alive, roasting alive, or otherwise torturing them, because it was generally believed that this resulted in more tender, flavorful meat. Suppose people generally shaped their growing children's feelings away from sympathy toward the dogs and towards finding the dogs' struggles amusing. Suppose there were no laws at all forbidding the treatment of dogs in this way, or forbidding any other treatment of dogs. Suppose the people of Country A who found fault with this practice were few, and were generally ridiculed.

 

I live in the US, which as a society condemns treating dogs in this way, has laws against it, and disparages the relatively few people in the US who torture dogs to death. Both emotionally and rationally I disapprove of this practice.

 

Which of the following best describes this situation:

 

( a ) There is no difference between Country A and the US with respect to the treatment of dogs.

 

( b ) There is a difference between Country A and the US with respect to the treatment of dogs, but to call it a cultural difference would be inaccurate and/or racist.

 

( c ) There is a cultural difference between Country A and the US with respect to the treatment of dogs, and because it is a cultural difference my disapproval is a cultural bias which I should try to put aside and eschew.

 

( d ) There is a cultural difference between Country A and the US with respect to the treatment of dogs, but it is wrong for me to criticize Country A's treatment of dogs because other animal species are slaughtered for food in the US and their confinement and slaughter sometimes/often causes them pain, either because the laws mandating humane treatment are too lax or are not always complied with.

 

( e ) There is no such country as Country A.

[Kyrasmom]

I'm not sure which is the correct answer but a source of frustration for me, living here in the United States (though I'm American) is that other cultures are compared by using the American way of life as a standard.

 

I agree with everyone that the acts described in other countries are horrific but I'm sure that other cultures look to the US and find some common practices just as horrific and they would be making the same sweeping generalization as they would be using their way of thinking as the standard.

 

I think the problem starts when you automatically assume that your culture (or way of thinking) is the standard because it does not take into consideration what entire countries and cultures are born from. And in many (most) countries, it's much more far reaching than the United States.

 

Personally, I don't shop at Penny's and now won't even more so, I also don't eat commerically slaughtered meat because I do think there is much room for improvement in the slaughterhouses, I find the act of skinning a live dog (or any animal) horrific and don't understand it but much in the same way that I don't understand why someone would club a kitten to death. Or a child.

 

I'm probably a hypocrit because I do have leather shoes and accept moderate medical testing on animals but feel that much of the cosmetic testing is as horrific as skinning a dog alive...and there's no cultural background to excuse that.

 

Maria

[voices4animals]

All this kumbaya talk of "one human culture" is a very "sweet" thought, but is completely false.

 

The thing that makes our world so fascinating is that it is NOT one human culture..

 

My realization that the treatment of animals in Asia is culture based took a while to develop.

Many organizations TRIED to explain this concept to me when I first got started (and stubbornly wouldn't listen)... but they've had the privilege of watching me eat my words by the time I left.

 

I also know that the reason people in countries with horrible animal rights abuse records, it's culture that typically prevents them from feeling "o.k." with speaking out or trying to change things (sometimes it's government persecution, too).

 

It should be said as well that knowing and understanding the culture of the country you're dealing with can be your ace up your sleeve when it comes to finding SUCCESSFUL ways of battling an issue within that country. AAF, for example, knows that protests, boycotts, etc do NOT work in China.. and that to save Moon Bears from Bile farms, they had to work to find a substitue for the bile - and work WITH the cultural beliefs of the Chinese to save the bears... and they've done this with much success. They walk on glass, but they achieve their goals this way.

 

Next time, I'll know better to listen to those who have lived it (such as the Animals Asia Foundation, AAPN, etc) - and not to those who've just read about it in a book and call themselves an expert.

 

Great topic.. and I've enjoyed reading people's thoughts on this. Back to BC's.

 

~kim

[voices4animals]

Dang.. I get to typing so fast.. LOL

 

Correction! I wrote:

 

"I also know that the reason people in countries with horrible animal rights abuse records, it's culture that typically prevents them from....."

 

--------------------

I should have said:

--------------------

 

I also know that the reason people in countries with horrible animal rights abuse records APPEAR TO DO VERY LITTLE TO PREVENT ANIMAL ABUSE IS BECAUSE "culture" typically prevents them from... (etc etc etc).

 

Oops.

 

~Kim

[Firchow]

Originally posted by kelpiegirl:

Glenn, you asked "define proven working ability" (which seems weird in this thread..) but if you wish to really know- I can direct you to some really really nice working Border Collies

Hi Julie, I was just trying to use an easy analogy to point out that "barbaric" is a matter of definition - just like "proven working ability." Some people think that pushing sheep around an arena proves working ability, where others have a much more stringent definition.

 

So ultimately my (poorly made) point was that "barbaric" is a matter of definition and it's often culture that sets that definition.

[voices4animals]

Kyrasmom:

 

Excellent points. We do tend to use "western" culture as the measuring stick when comparing the cultures of other countries.

 

The thing with America is that it's not old.. not by any stretch of the imagination. So we've been blessed in that we had this amazing opportunity to "start fresh". Other countries that are steeped in their culture find it hard to step out of the box and change things.

 

Understanding this makes it easier to be more forgiving when we see such atroctious behavior such as skinning dogs (alive). I don't forgive those who DO this, of course.. but I forgive those who feel unable to change things... we have NO clue what their torment is like being unable to speak out due to fear of reprisal.

 

The heroes are those who speak out knowing they put themselves at great risk.

 

At dogsinasia.com (a new organization), there are members who are Chinese - and who are trying to change things in their own country. So there IS hope..

 

~Kim

[bcherder]

AND

[bcherder]

AND

[ShoresDog]

What a fascinating discussion this turned into. I want to add just one point to it. I think an aspect of American culture that gets us into trouble is how we like to be able to buy any product at a rock bottom low price. But when price is what matters most, we tend not to notice how that low price was achieved. I for one would like to have all animal-based products better labeled to indicate how the animal was farmed, was it slaughtered humanely, etc. I think the saying "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" would apply here. If we could choose to pay more for a product that didn't involve inhumane practices, I think most of us would. E.g., I would love to be able to know I was buying lamb products that came from Bill Fosher's farm.

 

Whole Foods is supposedly developing a labeling system to address this in the meat department. I hope they do. But meanwhile, I try to buy local.

 

This thread has led me to make a resolution to write some letters to stores & lawmakers.

[bcherder]

AND in the end, after all is said and done,

this question begs to be asked:

 

Would YOU export one of your border collies to Asia?

 

Pass the word please.

www.dogsinasia.com

 

 

donna

[Dixie_Girl]

Well, gee whiz! What about the muslim countries? Any one remember the cabbies that wouldn't take pass. with dogs? They said if they did they would have to do some cleansing ritual thing. Wonder how the dogs get treated there? What about in Austrailia? Ranchers there consider the dingo a pest. Native Americans consider the wolf "a brother", we practically bountied them into extiction. As I said in my other post, things will change. Ideas will be accepted, changed, and abandoned. We only can educate. We can't go around condeming "people", only their actions. To a PETA person, I am commiting an atrocity every time I put meat in my mouth, or even take my dogs to training or a trial. But I don't feel that way, and so far none has convinced me otherwise. So, am I a horrible person, or are they just stupid?

[IronHorse]

Disapproval of pratices mean absolutely nothing unless viable actions are taken to cause change.

 

This is by no means an all encompassing solution to the OP's topic But it is an action that can be taken by any or all with little effort that is a step in the right direction.

Support "The Truth in Fur Labeling Act of 2006"

 

For those interested I am providing a link

 

The Global Trade in Dog and Cat Fur

[Pipedream Farm]

Suppose there was a country where it is acceptable to collect the blood of animal fetuses and then use that for medicinal products? Would you consider that barbaric and then choose to not purchase any products from any retailer that sells these goods?

 

Mark

[Black Watch Debatable]

All this kumbaya talk of "one human culture" is a very "sweet" thought

There's little sweet about human culture.

 

I share Melanie's disappointment/dismay, and I'll sign out.

[Dixie_Girl]

Mark, excellent point. Yeah, I know what you are refering to.

[Pipedream Farm]

My participation here has primarily been to point out that it is often cultural bias that determines how one classifies a species of animal (pet, tool, food, etc) and it is this classification that often dictates what we find as acceptable for that animal. We would not find dog as an acceptable food source because we (our culture) classifies dog as a pet while we have no problem consuming or wearing cow because we classify them as livestock.

 

So what/who determines which species can be consumed and which cannot? Was that not passed onto you by your parents (culture)?

 

By all means condemn inhumane practices in animal husbandry and slaughter (like we should and do within our own culture); but is it fair/right to condemn another cultural bias? How would you feel if we were condemned, called barbaric, by another culture for our consumption of a cow?

 

Mark

[Pipedream Farm]

Linda, I knew you would know. Mark

[DebC]

What an excellent discussion this has been! It has certainly kept me awake this morning! Mark raises an interesting point - how are animals classified in a society? And it is how they are classified that determines how they are used, and whether that usage is deemed appropriate or not.

I have to say I think even for an animal 'classified' as food, their demise should be as painless/quick as possible.

This also made me wonder - what would you do if you suddenly had to depend on yourself to obtain your food? Are the acceptable boundaries stretched? (I think I would go vegan - I don't have the stomach for killing)

PS -Mark I think I know what you are referring to, and hopefully they have found another way....

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Answering personally, it would depend on a number of factors, but if the fetuses were "harvested" by cutting the bitch open while she was still alive and unanesthetized, my answer is yes. A little less pain than skinning alive, probably, and with a higher purpose than obtaining coat trimmings, but still barbaric, IMO. But I would feel the same if it were my own country where this were done.

[Pipedream Farm]

Eileen,

 

 

Warning: The linked article is detailed.

 

It's called FBS (used in the manufacturing of most vaccines and other pharmaceuticals and medical tests) and to answer your questions about conditions, it would depend upon how well the slaughter house did with it's killing.

 

Mark

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

You mean there are no protocols at all for how the bitch should be killed? Or no knowledge of whether the protocols are followed?

 

I'm really not sure I understand why you're making a point about cultural relativism here. Of course there are things done in my own culture that I disapprove of too. The puppy mill conditions Melanie brought up, for heaven's sake -- legal, accepted by many, but barbaric -- and I am urging people all the time not to "purchase products from them." Many ethical vegetarians in the US grew up eating meat and had parents who raised them to think meat-eating is fine. They re-thought the issue and came to a different conclusion. Just because something may be a recognizable cultural norm in a country doesn't mean that individuals cannot evaluate it -- striving for objectivity -- and then on that basis either approve or disapprove of it, the same as they evaluate the cultural practices of other countries. We are all influenced by our culture to some degree, but some accept it virtually without question and some question it constantly.

 

>

 

The whole notion of "inhumane practices" could itself be termed a cultural bias -- there are societies who view animal suffering as of no significance and efforts to minimize it as pointless and downright odd, and other societies who view it as bad and value minimizing it. So why don't you consider it unfair and culturally narrow-minded to condemn inhumane practices?

 

>

 

Wouldn't bother me a bit. I think ethical issues are implicated in our use of animals -- it's something I give a lot of thought to, and I would be interested to hear what they had to say.

 

EDITED TO ADD: Mark, I just read your link, and what I gleaned from it was that ( a ) the animals involved are cattle, not dogs, ( b ) the harvesting of the fetal blood is done after the cow has been slaughtered for other reasons, and ( c ) the panelists believe that a prescribed methodology can ensure that even late gestation fetuses will experience no pain through this procedure. Since my concern with animals other than dogs is limited to suffering considerations, I would not find this barbaric assuming that methodology is followed.