Selling dog fur in US!

[voices4animals]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

[QB] Eileen, my post was not a flame. It was an honest expression of dismay at the content of a post within this specific context. I have no idea who Kim is (indeed, as far as I can tell Kim has never posted on the Boards except to this thread) or what she is like as a person ? I have only words to go on.

 

 

Melanie,

I'll only respond to this ONE statement.. the rest I'll let roll off my back.

 

We DO know eachother, Melanie. In fact, we've emailed to one another before.

 

To be completely honest, you're one of the first who went for my throat, when I was a brand new border collie owner (first time ever), in need of information regarding some health issues my pup was facing (5 mo old - in Okinawa).

 

You weren't the only BC person to go after me.. I was naive, NEW to the BC world - and in need of information from those who were in the know. Little did I know what I was stepping into.

 

Instead of being forgiven for being new, I was belittled, chided, and made to feel like an idiot. I left all but one group - dusted myself off, and hung in there. At one time I joined here, but then left because I am NOT a herder.. and felt I probably didn't fit in (that was most likely thru my yahoo address tho).

 

Three years later, I've grown a spine, can better comprehend the tensions, differences, etc, and know a tad bit more about BCs now than I did back then.

 

Anyway... think hard, and I'm sure you'll recall me from LONG ago.. on a couple of yahoo boards.

 

I've always "lurked" here just to read... I know that Jodi is here - she should remember me.. and I remember Becky (I used to call her Rebecca of sunnybrook farm for fun). They were always full of great info - which I gladly gleaned.

 

Now that I'm back in the U.S., I try to spend my time facilitating BC Rescues when, and if, I can (we're a military family - and unfortunately, I am not allowed to do fostering).

 

Most importantly, the past 3 years have afforded me the opportunity to meet the most amazing fellow-bc-owners - who kindly offered me some patience, and shared their "wisdom" and experience with me. Many of them I now consider dear friends.. and they span the globe.

 

I'm so grateful to them, words aren't enough... but I am far from expert, and I love learning more about BCs. I couldn't have IMAGINED they'd be as fascinating as they are. It's been a joy owning one.. and I'm looking forward to our next one.

 

For what it's worth, Melanie...I know where you're coming from (my family is chalked FULL of career scientists). And I do remember all the issues you stood by Solo through.. and we've exchanged some interesting, respectful thoughts with one another (after the smoke cleared), although we agreed to disagree. But it was a pretty long time ago (maybe 2 or 3 years now).

 

I think some of your statements are a bit twisted as well, but I'd never go out on a limb to put you down, humiliate you or question your intelligence..

 

I respect dissention - and I believe those steeped in the sciences depend upon their peers' varying opinions to form their own, don't they?

 

I only wish you well, Melanie.. but I had kinda hoped you might have grown a funny bone by now.

 

Take Care,

Kim

[voices4animals]

Originally posted by prosperia:

IMO, (and I dont have a dictionary so this might not be Webster's definition) Culture is a group of people who share the same set of beliefs. So to equate dissagrement with a belief to racisim is wrong. Racisim would be seeing an asian person at the mall or on the street and immedietly thinking, "Those people 'over there' kill dogs. Im not going to associate with them." That of course is wrong. And I dont see where anyone has that kind of issue.

THANK YOU!

Well said!

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Melanie, it was a flame. It had no content at all except to call another poster (or more than one) ignorant. It was about the third time you had said "you all depress me," "I expect people to be better than you are," etc. That is not engaging in discussion -- it is content-free condemnation. When people tried to engage you in discussion in response, you merely repeated that what they said proved your point that they were depressing/disappointing/ignorant, without addressing what they said. I have no doubt your post was an honest expression of your feelings regarding a post you were reading, but so are most flames.

 

>

 

Useful example. Yes, people have often posted unfair sweeping generalizations about how working dog people treat their border collies. I don't recall that "we" (sweeping generalization?) get our panties in a twist. Certainly we don't respond by just saying you depress me, I expect people to be better than you are, you're ignorant. We address the issue, whatever it is. We either defend the practice they're attacking, giving reasons, or we dispute that it occurs, giving reasons, or we agree with their condemnation of it and give whatever mitigating or qualifying information is appropriate, or whatever. That is discussion.

 

I tried with my multiple choice question to help narrow down and focus what your and Luisa's position was (other than "you're all depressing"), but without success. Many people have addressed your point that there are abuses here in the US. Not one person has disagreed with you. Yes, there are abuses here in the US. They are denounced over and over again on these Boards, in thread after thread. Does that mean that people cannot also criticize abuses elsewhere? If our treatment of animals in this country were worse than that of other countries, I would not at all blame those other countries from criticizing us or boycotting us, even though some of us are good guys.

 

I have no idea how widespread the practice of skinning dogs alive and other similar cruel practices are in Asia. Any information on that question would be a welcome addition to the discussion, I think, and to the extent it could narrow down the countries or regions where it does or doesn't occur, it might well show that the shorthand use of "Asia" was much too sweeping. But even under that usage, all posters to the best of my recollection emphasized that they were not assuming that all Asians approved of or engaged in these practices, and some gave specific examples of Asian people who did not.

 

You view what's being said here as condemnation of all Asian people, no matter how often posters protest otherwise. Yet, you hate it when posters don't blame the people, but blame a culture. The concept of cultures may be unfashionable as all get out in academia, I don't know. But I do think it's a useful concept to distinguish between countries where the vast majority of the people and the legal system view the suffering of animals as trivial and of no concern, and countries where the vast majority of the people and the legal system treat it as a legitimate concern. I believe that more animal suffering will occur in the former than in the latter.

 

>

 

I know that the idea that there has been some kind of progress in human thought over time IS unfashionable as all get out in academic circles, but I don't see why it should be upsetting. We all make these judgments, and we always will, because if we didn't think our way of thinking was better, we wouldn't think that way. To take a Western example, Descartes believed that animals feel no pain, and under the influence of his thought vivisection parties were held to watch animals being cut up alive. I would say our thinking has progressed since then -- I might even say that it has "evolved" and is more "enlightened." Can you honestly say you think our current view is no improvement? Even if you can, I don't see why you should be upset that I think so. To the extent that through persuasive information and argument I and others who think like me can get other people to agree with us that our newer (to use a neutral term) way of thinking is superior, norms will change. If few people agree with us, norms will not change, but we will still believe we are right.

 

Ultimately, you criticize the discussion because "it invites all sorts of ugly biases to come into play." I think that may be the heart of your objection, and I disagree because I do not believe, based on what I have read, that racial bias has been a factor in the discussion at all, and I gather you think it has.

[voices4animals]

First... I have to say I LOVE your name: Borderlicious!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Dang! I wish I had thought of it! Adorable!!

 

Ok.. now down to business.. LOL

 

You wrote: "Culture is, I feel, irrelevant to the issue at hand. Culture doesn?t teach callousness and cruelty."

 

I can only speak about the Japanese culture (and the other cultures I have lived in that were our host nations for 3 or 4 years at a time).

 

I would never dream of insulting the entire Japanese race by insinuating they ALL think and feel the same.. or by stereotyping.

 

That said.. their culture DOES teach.. or rather "conditions".. enforces.. whatever you want to call it... callousness (not sure that's the word I'm looking for exactly either) with regard to animals. But the contradiction is that they love nature.. and the outdoors.. and yes.. some LOVE their dogs (to the extreme)...it was just the STRANGEST experience..

 

For example, I met one great guy who runs a rescue for sea turtles.. hiding the location of the eggs from the public.. and gathering volunteers to assist the hatchlings race to the sea before sunlight. He was amazing. And he LOVES dolphin meat.

 

??? See what I mean?

How do I put that kind of contradiction into words? It's so hard to describe.

 

I've tried to explain my experience.. and I have Japanese friends that would concur (regarding the differences in treatment of animals)... but I think the topic has run its course.

 

So back to that first post about JC Penney....

I'm glad it was brought to everyone's attention!

I'm considering cutting up my beloved JCPenney card (even tho it got me through 12 years of Christmases overseas!!! LOL).

 

~kim

[voices4animals]

O.k.. DOUBLE DANG...

 

Now WHY couldn't I have said it like Eileen? (see below) Instead, I had to use Neanderthal..trying to insert a little humor.

 

Well, you said what I was trying to say, Eileen, but a thousand times more articulately.

 

"To take a Western example, Descartes believed that animals feel no pain, and under the influence of his thought vivisection parties were held to watch animals being cut up alive. I would say our thinking has progressed since then -- I might even say that it has "evolved" and is more "enlightened." "

 

Exactly.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Kim from that other board? Now I remember!

 

Culture is a useful and necessary element of discussing human activities. Otherwise your choices are discussing the actions and belief systems of individuals (unwieldly in this type of discussion), or geographical or political designations (usually inaccurate in philosophical/ethical discussions - as Melanie keeps pointing out).

 

This is a really good example of how relativism leaves us all struggling for a common place to say, "This is OK and this is not." Without an external standard we can only shrug and say, "If it doesn't hurt me there's no word I can raise against it." Not and stay intellectually honest.

 

there is some sort of evolutionary continuum of culture, with whoever is making the argument invariably at the pinnacle and people from other parts of the world still ?backward? or culturally retarded in some respect, is only the latest upsetting thing that?s been said in this thread.

I'm afraid I am somewhat confused here. If it's OK for you to epxress value statements for us - the practices of the Age of Exploration and I assume in particular the largely deploreable "White Man's Burden" - why is the underlying sense that superior standards do exist, invalid? This is something that I admittedly inferred from your statement that the practices of the Age of Exploration are "upsetting" and your relation of this topic to someone else's statement.

[SoloRiver]

Eileen, I am not really sure what else I can say (my last marathon post should have covered the points you claim I have not addressed) and now that the "ivory tower" argument has been invoked I see that there is little point in continuing, particularly because you seem determined to condemn me for expressing myself in certain ways while other, inflammatory language used by others goes unremarked. (For example, it's apparently OK for Kim to tell me that I need to "grow up" and get a "funny bone" which as far as I can tell are merely personal attacks. By the way, Kim, I have a perfectly well-developed funny bone, thank you very much. The problem is, your posts are not funny.)

 

I still believe you have missed some of my points (as indicated by your lengthy response) but I don't think that says anything except that we are coming to this from such vastly differing points of view that further discussion is not useful. We are at cross purposes. Continuing would simply be more frustrating.

 

My views are not a matter of fashion, and insinuating that they are is both hurtful and insulting. My views are as deeply held and as thought out as yours, or anyone else's here, are. I have no particular desire to brand anyone a racist and indeed, if you look back you'll see I never used that word. Your responses to me in this thread (and I would maybe question the appropriateness of a moderator getting involved in a debate in that manner) have intimated that I am simply imagining things, or just looking to make trouble. I thought you knew me better than that, and am disappointed and saddened -- yes, once again, but for a different reason this time.

 

We've been friends in the past, and hopefully will be friends in the future, but this exchange has left nothing but a bad taste in my mouth.

 

I think it would be nice for the Boards to go back to being about Border Collies, and not about dog fur or global warming or any of a number of other off-topic discussions with political implications that serve little purpose except to make people here upset with one another. I look forward to the day that this happens, and in the meantime I wish you well. Good bye.

[rosefarm]

Peace guys, discussion is good, healthy, necessary. Bring your opinions openly and welcome dissent. Don't judge others for disagreeing with you, its okay.

 

Eileen I think you are an EXCELLENT moderator.

 

--Denise

[Farm Girl]

Oh my goodness. I have a headache just reading all of this. I don't even know what you guys are really discussing anymore.

We are just really blessed to live in a country where the value of life is high.

[voices4animals]

"For example, it's apparently OK for Kim to tell me that I need to "grow up" and get a "funny bone" which as far as I can tell are merely personal attacks. By the way, Kim, I have a perfectly well-developed funny bone, thank you very much. The problem is, your posts are not funny"

 

[waving a white flag]

 

You're right.. and wrong...

 

Right, because I did mention hoping that you had gotten a funny bone (meaning you're always so serious... but that's not always a bad thing).

 

Wrong, because I didn't tell you to "grow up".. I said I thought you should "lighten up". Two entirely different things. Ironically, this kinda proves the point that was made about perception earlier (can't remember who brought it up though).

 

And on my behalf.. usually I can be pretty funny.. but not everyone likes my humor. To know me is to love me, I'm told. My apologies that my humor is often mistaken for sarcasm. I forget to use emoticons.

 

I'll try to improve on that.

 

For what it's worth, Melanie .. sometimes your seriousness CAN be funny... so I'll give credit where it's due.

 

Take Care, Melanie!

 

~Kim

[voices4animals]

PS: I still think this was a really interesting thread/topic - and it did bring me out of hiding. I am very concerned about the Border Collies that are being shipped to Asia "blindly". Breeders need to know how easily they can be duped.. and WHY it's important to be vigilant. Just today, a lady I met here (who has a sheep farm, and breeds working BC's) was contacted via email from a person posing to be from Spain.. wanting a BC. Turned out to be one of those scams.. but she had NO idea about this stuff. So talking in groups - publicly - about these things is SO essential. It could spare a breeder from a horrific experience.

 

Also, I'm going to be attending my first herding clinic soon.. which is why I've decided to jump in here at the boards. I may not always be agreeable, and you may want to rip me to shreds if I ask a stupid question.. but I AM truly..

T R U L Y.. excited about the clinic... I've had my fill of Derek Scrimgauer (sp?) videos. I'm ready to see it in person. I'm the first to admit when I've done or said something brainless, so I may not always be funny, but at least I'm honest.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I did see in your last post a willingness to state your position, which is why I replied. Now if you cared to respond to the substance of my reply a discussion would be taking place.

 

>

 

Why? I didn't even make an "ivory tower" argument (which I understand to be "you live in an ivory tower and don't deal with real life"). I only mentioned academia because you invoked your status as an anthropologist and your posts -- including your "reading assignment" for Kim -- have dismissed views expressed in this thread as beneath discussion and already resolved for all but the ignorant and unread. But my mention of academia was just an aside -- what about dealing with substance? WHY is the view that there has been some kind of progress in human thought over time, and that concern for animal suffering is an example of such progress, so wrong and upsetting, for example?

 

>

 

That's the problem with flames -- they evoke flames in return. Kim said "lighten up" and she "wished you had grown a funny bone" (I don't see where she said "grow up"), which is personal, but was in response to your "staggering ignorance" comment to her, and not in the same league, IMO. Not that I enjoy weighing the relative offensiveness of stuff like this. Or being sucked into talking about the tone of people's posts, which is also personal. I just do the best I can.

 

>

 

Maybe. I have no real sense of what your point of view is, so far. Do you think there is no such thing as different cultures, or that there is, but the term is being misapplied here? Do you think that any attempt to make value judgments about cultural values (if there is such a thing as cultural values) is immoral or incorrect? I have no idea. The only thing I'm getting is that I and the other posters are not worth bothering with.

 

>

 

Good. I never doubted it. What are they?

 

>

 

No, you absolutely didn't. But I'm trying to figure out what the heck is going on with your posts, which seem uncharacteristically charged, disparaging and uncommunicative, and that's the best I've come up with.

 

>

 

No, they haven't. But now, right here, I think you ARE imagining that -- or at least misinterpreting.

 

>

 

Oh Melanie, for heaven's sake. We're friends now, as far as I'm concerned. You are a valuable presence on the Boards, and will be missed by many, including me, if you choose not to participate any longer. I have abiding respect and good will toward you. I don't know what's going on here, but I hope your sense of proportion will take over and set things right.

[bcherder]

Kim,

 

I don't think you have anything to apologize for.

Were you going to post some pictures?

 

donna

[INU]

late to join the thread.. I wasn't going to post since the thread got sidetracked but I wanted to quickly respond to Kim's post. As some of you know, I am from Japan and I feel the 'obligation' to share my opinions.

 

Originally posted by voices4animals:

I spent the past 3 years living on Okinawa Island, Japan - ... I was shocked and horrified by their culture-based lack of concern for the well being of domestic animals.. and for farm animals as well. They had absolutely no animal husbandry skills or knowledge.

...

Culturally, they (meaning most of the population) were raised believing that dogs and cats, no matter how domesticated, are "dirty" and are ridden with disease.. and have no place inside the home.

I'd like to ask Kim how long ago it was you lived in Japan. It could be the location (I am from Tokyo) but the things have changed in the last 10 years or so. You are right about some people leaving the dogs chained up outside 24/7. Many still do this. Last time I went home, I saw chained up dogs but at the same time, I met a lot of dog owners treating their dogs like their own children. You are also right about many feeling dogs/cats being 'dirty'. That is probably because of the living style. We take off shoes in the house and many still sleep on the floor. Having dogs inside the house can be actually 'dirty'. My parents have a dog that they walk 2 hours everyday and they wash his paws throughly before getting him back in the house. He's neutered, pampered, treated like a prince. They used to have a prarie dog before they got banned in Japan. My mother spent 20 dollars every day for 2 years to treat his condition on top of all other medical expenses. I almost thought they loved the little prarie dog more than me! We had a cat when I was a kid. He lived indoor most of the time and was very well-cared for.

 

My feeling, from experience, is that it's a CULTURAL "thing" regarding how a country, as a whole, treats their pets, wildlife, and farm animals. Generation to generation, how they treat animals is passed down - UNLESS they have education about animal husbandry provided by their schools or governments, or are simply lucky to be born into a home where animals are treated in a more "western" style.

I agree with you. I think the reason things are changing in Japan is because of western influence, especially American. It's not just about pets, human rights and women's rights! Thank America for that! That is why I asked when it was that you lived in Japan. Fortunately thins are changing and I do not want people that read your post think that majority of Japanese people treat animals that way.

 

I lived in the US over a decade. I met all sorts of animal owners. I volunteered at SPCA and have seen nasty stuff too. I've met many animal lovers and I've seen owners who'd tie their dogs 24/7 in cold/rain. Both my current neighbors tie their dogs and they are never allowed inside. If anyone back home asks how Americans treat their dogs, I'd say some treat their dogs great, and some don't. What makes Americans different from my people is the groups of activists actually get up and voices their opinions. Often they are heard. There are many laws to protect animals and people's rights. That's why I love this country. There are good/bad people in both countries but America speaks up more.

[Eileen Stein]

Thanks for putting up such a thoughtful and informative post, INU. The couple of posts that followed yours (which I have deleted) have convinced me that anything useful that could be said on this subject has already been said, so I am locking the thread.