Selling dog fur in US!

[SoloRiver]

I'm afraid you've entirely missed my point.

 

I'm going to leave aside the question of who gets to decide what is "acceptable" behavior for every other person on the planet. (As an anthropologist I prefer to stay out of those arguments -- they are too frustrating and ultimately pointless most of the time.) My point was that when you are making large, sweeping statements about "Asian culture" that you are constructing a monolith that simply doesn't exist. It's easy to talk about how "they" think about animals and ignore the fact that "they" don't all think the same way. We're talking about literally billions of people here.

 

It would be easy for someone to assume that Americans as a whole don't care very much about dogs because so many crappy things happen to dogs in this country. This wouid ignore the fact that for every urban pit fighter, redneck puppy miller, or good ol' farmer who throws unwanted puppies into the pond in a sack with rocks in it, there is some rabid Border Collie lover reading some bulletin board who lovingly feeds his or her dog a carefully chosen raw food diet, takes the dog to sports classes that are probably more mentally stimulating than the education available to the average pre-school age child living in certain impoverished areas of the country, and allows the dog to sleep in his or her own bed at night.

 

There's a difference between thinking there is something wrong with a practice, and turning that into demonization of an entire continent of people. And the latter is what some of the responses her are starting to sound like.

[kelpiegirl]

Um, no, I did not miss your point Melanie. I don't think anyone here on this board is "dissing" the entire asian culture. I think they are very disgusted by some practices that occur. If these same practices occurred in the USA (skinning dogs alive for one) this would be met with the same anger. The geography of the abuse matters not, it is the abuse. And the old argument of how bad it is in the USA, doesn't really hold water to me, because behind England, we have the most strict laws on the books regarding animal abuse. Every year inroads are made into improving animal welfare- even those animals slated for slaughter. As someone who works in the field of animal science, and happens to know the usda regulations quite well, I can tell you that the use of animals is one of the if not the most regulated industry in the country, well surpassing that of the other small issues like child welfare.

Julie

[SoloRiver]

Julie, your own words belie your point. And the course of the current discussion, and related discussions, depresses me a great deal. I like to think better of people.

[sea4th]

I don't think I'm culturally insensitive to find torturing dogs and skinning them alive, repugnant. My own background, Russian, has a lot of issues that make me cringe. And this criticism is uaually well-deserved. A topic like the one we are discussing, brings a lot of emotions to the surface, which usually never goes past the point of demonizing an entire culture. And that's where these attempts to bring an end to these acts, fail.

 

I think to bring about any change, it would be counterproductive to demonize a people, a culture. That's the biggest obstacle to overcome.

 

Once you get past that, maybe a good way to start, to bring an end to these things, is to offer people the opportunity of other ways, ways that are truly better for them. Maybe allowing them to consider another and better way to farm, for example? Encourage a quick and clean death perhaps, if dog is to remain part of their diet?

 

Disspelling myths that promote torture and these days, extinction -- that's a little more difficult, but if it's to be done, it's got to be done with respect, if it's to be effective at all.

 

I think the best asset we have to end these practices are those progressive thinking individual's who are not afraid to stand up in the face of their government, as they recently did to stop the slaughter of dogsin China. This type of movement, this way of thinking, might be the key to bringing about change---and change from within is always better. We need to support those people and speak with our $$$. Make it known that you won't support any establishment that sells fur from China.

[kelpiegirl]

Melanie

I guess I don't understand what you are taking from my posts.

In summation:

Anyone who carries on skinning live animals and other torturous activities is doing the wrong thing REGARDLESS of where it happens PERIOD.

I apologize if my post was unclear about that.

Julie

[Firchow]

Originally posted by kelpiegirl:

Melanie

I guess I don't understand what you are taking from my posts.

In summation:

Anyone who carries on skinning live animals and other torturous activities is doing the wrong thing REGARDLESS of where it happens PERIOD.

I apologize if my post was unclear about that.

Julie

Julie,

 

It is cultural.

 

Breeding border collies for anything other than proven working ability is entirely unethical.

 

Define proven working abililty.

 

Glenn Firchow

[Dixie_Girl]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

redneck puppy miller

So, are ALL rednecks puppy millers, or are ALL puppy millers rednecks??

 

 

It is so easy to take offense at things folks say. But I don't believe anyone here with any of their statements were meant to put down a certain people. They were meant to put down certain practices. Let's all just take a deep breath here.

 

ETA I forgot to put the graemlin in!

[SoloRiver]

I guess I don't understand what you are taking from my posts.

 

I don't think it's conscious, but I think it is interesting that a discussion that was ostensibly about one objectionable practice became a discussion about another unrelated and also objectionable practice and then suddenly became about a number of other objectionable but totally unrelated practices, none of which are germane to the discussion unless they are being brought up to demonstrate how depraved one thinks "they" are "over there."

 

I really don't know what else to say.

[mydogMilton]

 

Not to get you guys going again, I myself wasn't personally interested in this untill i saw their pictures .... what cuties!!!! I got the picture from Wilkipedia along with these quotes.....

Raccoon Dog populations have declined in recent years due to hunting, fur trapping, urbanization, an increase of animals associated with human civilization such as pets and abandoned animals, and diseases that may be transmitted between them.

 

Raccoon Dogs are secretive and not very aggressive; they prefer to hide or scream rather than fight, and play dead to avoid predators.

[tanya4]

Back to the original topic....I couldn't believe that it is legal to sell dog fur in the US, so I googled and found this (http://www.hsus.org/furfree/news/retailers...abeled_fur.html):

 

"The Humane Society of the United States is also calling on Congress to amend the Dog and Cat Protection Act?which bans the sale of dog or cat fur in the United States?to include raccoon dog, since the animals are so inhumanely killed and the species is similar to domesticated dogs. Raccoon dogs are indigenous to Asia, including eastern Siberia and Japan."

 

So apparently there is a "Dog & Cat Protection Act", but why the raccoon dog needs special mention is unknown to me, since they are a canine.

 

I'm sure we can all agree that unneccessary pain & suffering is inexcusable, no matter what type the animal is and no matter who is doing the killing. Let's hope China and other countries adopt humane animal treatment laws.

 

Also, don't shop at JC Penney's, as they know exactly what they're selling and by crossing out the offending words in the materials list, are committing fraud to the consumer.

 

Maybe now would be a good time to close this discussion.

[Lunar]

Oh my goodness, they are so cute!

[mydogMilton]

As far as killing animals... here goes.....

 

I believe that living in tune with nature and working in it's natural cycles are fine... The Native Americans had most of this right. They would occasionally kill an animal for food, but at the same time would wacth the populations and never mass kill (as far as my knowledge goes in that). What ruins everything is when some person steps in and kills for greed. NO matter what it is this is always a BAD THING!!!!!!!!

 

When in fact it becomes critical to kill an animal for food or safety, if handeled well, this can be an ethical thing. It is just what naked mother nature, take predetors for instance, would do anyway.

 

Please I don't mean to offend anyone, I would just like to point out that as far as killing goes it shouldn't be to stop it compleatly, just the 90.0 ways of doing it wrong.

 

One more example... b/c my family does not believe in the way factory raised poultry live their lives, we raise are own. They have fresh grass, bugs, sky.... everything they could want. When it comes time to bucther them we do it quickly with as little tramua to the bird as possible. Even if we were to let them live longer than bucthering date (and we have to some special favorites) they do not live longer than a couple months. It's the way they are.

 

Hopefully I havent led you guys off to another topic. That wasn't my intention. If I have, sorry, again

Marissa

[Lunar]

To weigh in - that JC Penney would do that is disturbing to me. It appears I won't be shopping there anymore.

 

To me, raising animals to kill them for vanity - fur - is just very... sad. The animal is far more beautiful alive than dead, IMO. And if an animal should be killed for whatever reason, it should be as quick and painless - and respectful - as possible.

[Eileen Stein]

 

But hey, it's so much easier to demonize people from the other side of the planet, isn't it? >>

 

How on earth could you have gotten the idea that people on these Boards are blind or indifferent to neglect, abuse or torture of dogs in this country? You can't be reading the same Boards I'm reading.

 

>

 

??? I see zero interest on anyone's part in branding nationalities as depraved. It is particular conduct toward dogs that is the focus of discussion. When posters criticize breed specific legislation in Ontario, do you think they are making sweeping generalizations about Ontarians?

[IronHorse]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

A concern for animal welfare is admirable. Xenophobia and cultural stereotyping are not. Due to the level of sarcasm exhibited by some, I am not sure what role each plays in the responses to this and other threads.

 

Remember that large cultures are never monolithic. Someone from outside of American culture (or the many American cultures that make up "American culture" as a whole) could easily take a look at how many supposedly beloved pet animals we destroy every week, month, year, take your pick, and conclude that Americans don't think very much about the "special relationship" that humans have with dogs. Neglect, abuse, torture of animals are all widespread here. It's in the news every day. Animal Planet produces numerous "animal cops" shows that document new abuses every week. Pet stores flourish despite easy access to information as to how animals are treated in puppy mills (treatment which, for social animals, often amounts to torture). There's a lot that people seem perfectly willing to close their eyes to here.

 

But hey, it's so much easier to demonize people from the other side of the planet, isn't it?

Very well stated and I totally agree with what you have said.

 

Like it or not since the dawn of the Human animal the practice of utilizing animals for various products has and shall continue to go on.

Of course the killing of an animal should be done as humanly as possible and it is our responsibility as the sentient being on this planet to do our best to make it so.

 

The Native Americans had most of this right. They would occasionally kill an animal for food, but at the same time would wacth the populations and never mass kill (as far as my knowledge goes in that).

This may sound glamourous but the truth of the matter is it was quite common for Native americans to mass kill herding animals.

Stampeding hundreds of bison over an embankment or cliff so that the falling animals would cripple and crush each other to allow for ease of butchering to take place was not exactly humane but it ensured that a tribe would have substantial stores of food and raw material for their survival with a minimum of risk to the people.It doesn't take much to imagine such a scene of dozens of crippled animals suffering until the butchering crew could get to them.

 

Have our methods of butchering really improved all that much?

Personally I am not so sure when I read articles that state as many as 60% of cattle run into a modern slaughterhouse are still concious when the butchering begins.

[SoloRiver]

How on earth could you have gotten the idea that people on these Boards are blind or indifferent to neglect, abuse or torture of dogs in this country? You can't be reading the same Boards I'm reading.

 

Eileen, I'm reading exactly the same boards that you're reading. Discussions about BSL in Ontario don't turn into rants about how "Canadian culture" treats animals, nor do they spin off into lists of random Canadian atrocities against animals, or lists of random atrocities against animals that happened in countries that are not Canada, but are inhabited by people who people confuse with Canadians.

 

I think folks here mean well. I think we all love dogs. I think that sometimes people speak (or write) uncarefully, or at least hope that's all it is. I think I'm well within my rights to point this out, and I also believe that my history of posting here suggests that I don't tend to have problems with reading for context, nor do I have a particular propensity for spouting off about inflammatory subjects for no reason. As I said, I prefer to think better of people, and what I've read here on this and related subjects has depressed me.

 

And that's all I'm going to say about it.

[Dixie_Girl]

Ironhorse, I don't know where you got your info, and since it has been 26yrs since I worked in a slaughter house, I won't say the info is wrong. But, at the plant where I worked, right after the cattle got shot with the rod, they were hung by their hind legs and their jugular cut so they could bleed out. I can't imagine anyone wanting to begin butchering on an animal as big as a cow without doing this first. Even the chickens where I worked were bled before any other cutting was done on them. Besides being messy, it could be very dangerous!

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

No, but given the discursive nature of our threads, if there WERE any such known atrocities I bet they'd get discussed. This is certainly not the first discussion that's touched on cultural differences, including those within the US, US as compared to Europe, etc.

 

I agree that you usually don't misread threads, but I think you're doing that here, and that it's why folks are "missing your point." I also agree that pursuing this aspect of the discussion is going nowhere.

[voices4animals]

I've lurked at this board for probably over a year now. I just visit to glean helpful information about BC's now and then, but am fairly busy, so usually don't have time to participate.

 

So, I hope you'll forgive me for butting in when most of you don't know me (a few may recognize me though from other groups). This is just one topic that's near and dear to me.

 

I have to give credit to Eileen for her posts, as they truly hit the nail on the head... so "dito" as far as what she said. I wish I could be as articulate as she is in just a few short words - forgive me if this gets long winded.

 

I spent the past 3 years living on Okinawa Island, Japan - and devoting my endless free time there to animal welfare education on the island, and to developing an environmental organization for young American & Okinawan teens (Club ZERO - Zoological, Environmental Research Opportunity). I have 2 organizations there that are devoted to encouraging better care of ALL animals on the island.. and in Japan.. through education (schools, etc). I also did volunteer work (and will continue to do so) for www.savetaijidolphins.org - and attempted (albeit in vain) to rally Okinawans to the cause of ending the consumption of dolphin meat, and ending the drive fisheries that capture dolphins.

 

ANYWAY, I tell you all this not to pat myself on the back, but to assure you that not only did I love the Okinawan/Japanese cultures, but I was very active in my community and with the locals. I immersed myself in their culture as much as possible... and I attempted to try to change a few minds whenever I could about better care and treatment of animals...but it was NOT easy.

 

Despite my deep interest and respect for the Japanese and Okinawans as a whole (never met more profoundly friendly, respectful people in my 12 years of living around the globe), I was shocked and horrified by their culture-based lack of concern for the well being of domestic animals.. and for farm animals as well. They had absolutely no animal husbandry skills or knowledge.

 

Yes. There were a FEW exceptions, and I knew pretty much every one of them by name.

 

I'll try to explain - but it's so difficult to summarize 3 years into this one post without sounding demeaning to Okinawans &/or Japanese. That's not my intention at all.

 

Culturally, they (meaning most of the population) were raised believing that dogs and cats, no matter how domesticated, are "dirty" and are ridden with disease.. and have no place inside the home.

 

"Rocky", for example, is a beautiful, expensive, pedigreed Golden Retriever who spent his entire life chained to a chunk of concrete, which he'd drag around, up and down the street in my friend's neighborhood. During Typhoons, my friends would rescue him from whatever street he wandered into, and take him into their home. They'd bathe him, remove the hundreds of ticks off of him, then return him the next morning - and the owners would never notice. Finally, we went to the owner's door, knocked, and explained that we were concerned about Rocky's well- being. "Why?" the old lady asked.. so we explained. I even offered to take Rocky off her hands, and adopt him from her. She was mortified, but very polite. She explained that Rocky was there to protect her, not be her pet.

 

The one thing about Japanese/Okinawan culture is that they do NOT like to be shamed... and they will NOT partake in shaming a neighbor/friend/etc. either. This was our leverage.

 

Us bringing it to Rocky's owner's attention made her feel shame (although we were completely respectful & friendly).. and this is what turned Rocky's life around. In about a week - Rocky was unchained, and living in the fenced yard. He was brought in during inclement weather as well.. and he was put on meds for his heartworms.

 

What the Japanese are brought up to believe is that dogs are for protection, primarily, or ornamentation. They do not go into the home, because they are "dirty". Cats are routinely poisoned, and most Okinawans I talked to could not BELIEVE I had a pet cat, especially one that lived inside my home. It made them cringe. Okinawa gasses to death more domestic animals than even TOKYO per capita. Pets are completely expendable there.

 

My feeling, from experience, is that it's a CULTURAL "thing" regarding how a country, as a whole, treats their pets, wildlife, and farm animals. Generation to generation, how they treat animals is passed down - UNLESS they have education about animal husbandry provided by their schools or governments, or are simply lucky to be born into a home where animals are treated in a more "western" style.

 

I was hardpressed to find ONE poster or advertisement for spaying/neutering a pet (or any animal welfare issue). NOT ONE. So I talked to pet stores and puppy suppliers (ugh) about how they could establish spaying and neutering incentive programs. They were baffled. "What's that?" they'd ask. They'd shake their heads -- "No.. No.. it is too expensive.. no one can afford to have surgery on their pet."

 

So, I approached it by explaining that their customers then become their competition when they breed THEIR pets and make their OWN puppies. Well THAT got their attention... not the humanitarian aspect of spaying/neutering animals.

 

I will FOREVER remember the sight of driving to get my mail (almost everyday).. and having to drive by the filthy little barn stuffed with horses (which are not indigenous to the island, by the way.. they are IMPORTED, and many are from the U.S.) - all waiting for the sushi chefs to pick them for that day's menu. A friend tried to sway the farmer to not kill the horses, even offering an enormous amount of money for them.. and was rejected.

 

If you ask Ric O'Barry (of One Voice) what response he gets from Japanese citizens when he asks them if dolphin is eaten there - and if they know what's going on in Taiji - he'll tell you that they do not believe it. If they don't see it, it's not happening. This is why the fisherman put blue tarps around the cove where the hundreds of dolphins are slaughtered (pics at the website I mentioned above). No one can see them being killed.. so it's not happening there, and folks can go about their happy day.

 

Sometimes.. YES.. a stereotype can fit an entire society when culturally they are conditioned to believe certain things. Animal welfare in Japan, Korea, Okinawa, China, India, etc, only matters to the smallest of numbers.. and the rest simply don't understand why it's not ok to chain your dog to the car bumper during a typhoon with 175 mph winds, or during 100 degree heat and 100% humidity...

 

I met 2 Okinawan women who would stake out homes for weeks.. then "liberate" chained up dogs (they're typically on 2 ft chains, unable to lay down, etc) in the middle of the night .. leaving only their collars on the end of the chain so it would look like they slipped out and got away. Then they'd work to rehome the dogs to Americans.

 

Some do care, but my observation was that they could not comprehend why dogs/cats/etc needed any kind of special care.

 

I started off thinking I could change them, and left there knowing that I was lucky to have changed just a few.

 

For what it's worth - the RAGE that's growing in Japan now is.. tah dah... working border collies.

 

And when these folks indescriminately breed these working border collies, and can't find homes for them.. who buys them? Local pet stores (which are run by the mafia). When they outgrow their kennel there, they're taken out with the trash.

 

OR... they're sold to buyers from China and Korea.

 

And where do THOSE dogs go?

 

Yes.. on plastic animal forms sold to shops in the U.S. and Europe (although they're banned, they still get through).. or on someone's dinner table.

 

I'm not kidding.

 

~Kim

[Black Watch Debatable]

My feeling, from experience, is that it's a CULTURAL "thing" regarding how a country, as a whole, treats their pets, wildlife, and farm animals. Generation to generation, how they treat animals is passed down - UNLESS they have education about animal husbandry provided by their schools or governments, or are simply lucky to be born into a home where animals are treated in a more "western" style. [Etc.]

And in one mind-boggling, cringe-inducing swoop, every issue Melanie raised is substantiated by an order of magnitude.

 

 

Eat ham much?

 

Consider the life of hogs in a U.S. factory farm:

Factory meat production is an industrial rather than an agricultural enterprise. Animal husbandry is nonexistent. Industrial pork barons produce pork chops and bacon and the animals themselves are treated only as industrial production units. Genetic manipulation for meat production has produced hog breeds that are high strung and nervous. They live short miserable lives characterized by extreme cruelty and extreme terror.

 

By nature, pigs are active, inquisitive and intelligent, and they spend much of their time exploring ground cover and rooting for food. They are communal animals with a highly developed system of vocalization that they use in courtship, self defense and raising their young. The female pig, the sow, has a strong instinct to build a nest before giving birth. She will wean her young for several months and take care of them even longer.

 

In industrialized hog factories, pigs are raised in intensive confinement for their entire lives in huge windowless structures choked by their own foul stenches. Subject to disease from overcrowding and entirely deprived of exercise, sunlight, straw bedding, rooting opportunities and social interactions that are fundamental to their health, factory hogs are kept healthy only by constant doses of subtherapeutic antibiotics. Their growth rates are unnaturally sped-up by feed additives including antibiotics, hormones and toxic metals. Sows endure in tiny crates that are too small for them to turn around, giving birth on bare metal grate floors, their babies taken away after only three weeks of weaning. Driven by frustration and depression, sows continually gnaw on the metal bars of their crates. Severe restrictions on the pigs? movement over a lifetime impede bone development frequently resulting in broken legs. Injured pigs are ?culled? sometimes by being dumped alive into waste lagoons. There are many accounts of brutal treatment of these animals, including teeth pulling, castration without anesthesia, and beating disabled sows unable or too terror stricken to walk to slaughter. According to the U.S. Humane Society, one in five of all factory-raised pigs die prematurely, before reaching the slaughterhouse.

 

In 1999, Smithfield made a major foray into Poland. At the invitation of the Animal Welfare Institute, Andrzej Lepper, the President of Poland?s largest farmers? union, came to the United States and toured Smithfield hog factories. Mr. Lepper later recounted that he was shocked by what he saw in the American hog factories which he referred to as ?animal concentration camps.? [source.]

kelpiegirl wrote

I believe that there are such vast differences in cultures [...]

I believe there is one human culture. It is as fluid as mercury and as varied as there are individuals on the planet.

 

A critic of postmodernism and its "enshrining of cultural difference" has written that the postmodern "concept of culture is not ... a critique of racism, it is a form of racism." [Walter Benn Michaels, quoted in Culture: The Anthropologists Account, by Adam Kuper.] Amen.

[Black Watch Debatable]

One small taxonomic detail...

 

So apparently there is a "Dog & Cat Protection Act", but why the raccoon dog needs special mention is unknown to me, since they are a canine.

The raccoon dog is a canid, which isn't quite the same thing. The raccoon dog is not a dog, any more than a zebra is a horse. In fact, the zebra is more closely related to the horse than the raccoon dog is to the domestic dog. Horse and zebra are in the same genus -- Equus -- but the dog (and wolf, coyote, jackal and dingo) are in the genus Canis, while the raccoon dog is in a genus all by himself: he is Nyctereutes procyonoides.

[IronHorse]

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

Ironhorse, I don't know where you got your info, and since it has been 26yrs since I worked in a slaughter house, I won't say the info is wrong. But, at the plant where I worked, right after the cattle got shot with the rod, they were hung by their hind legs and their jugular cut so they could bleed out. I can't imagine anyone wanting to begin butchering on an animal as big as a cow without doing this first. Even the chickens where I worked were bled before any other cutting was done on them. Besides being messy, it could be very dangerous!

What your refering to when you say "shot with the rod" is being hit with a form of a "CBP"(Captive Bolt Pistol)

I don't know what part of the slaughterhouse you worked in but this is typically what happens at the beginning,

Cattle are prodded, single file, down a corridor into a restraint device. Here they are stunned, usually by a mechanical blow to the head, usually with a captive bolt pistol. The captive bolt pistol works like a regular pistol except that rather than firing a bullet, it shoots out a metal rod that remains attached to the gun. The most common use of the captive bolt pistol is for cows and calves. The pistol is placed against an animal?s forehead and the pistol is fired driving the rod through the skull and into their brain. If done properly, the animal will immediately lose consciousness but often it isn?t done properly. A bad or hurried aim, or a sudden movement from the animal, and the bolt can miss inflicting agonizing pain and requiring a second attempt or more. Improperly stunned animals are often hung upside down by a back leg and moved to the blood pit where their throat is cut and they bleed to death while obviously conscious.(being stunned is not the same as being dead)

 

as for chickens well this is the norm,

 

There are currently no federal laws in the United States requiring ?humane slaughter? of birds, such as, chickens, turkeys, ducks and geese. Yet these animals represent roughly 90% of the animals killed for food in this country. Stunning is normally used, but it is done merely to make the slaughtering process more efficient.

After first being hung, fully conscious, by the feet from a moving shackle, the birds reach an electrified water bath. As the birds move along hanging upside down, their heads are dragged through an electrified tank of water. As with electric tongs, the amount of current needed to properly stun birds is an imprecise science, and the industry is concerned that too much current can result in a bruised or otherwise damaged body, reducing its value. The result is birds that may be immobilized, but fully capable of feeling pain. Some birds, particularly smaller ones, are able to raise their heads to avoid the stunning tank altogether.

Next, the birds? throats are cut by a slaughterhouse worker, or more commonly a mechanical blade, and the blood pours from their body. The blade sometimes misses the primary veins in the neck, or misses the throat altogether. Semi- or fully-conscious birds then move along to the next station where they are submerged in scalding hot water to loosen their feathers. Those that have not bled to death or are still conscious are boiled alive.

 

I am not saying these methods are right or wrong,only stating the common pratices of the commercial slaughterhouse,,and the operation of such facilities is ALWAYS in a hurry.

 

Just one of a number of reasons that personally I prefer to kill my own food so that I know exactly how it is being done.

[Dixie_Girl]

Well, that was a pretty accurate discription. I didn't work on the "kill" floor, but had to walk through it to get to my station, the inards room, (and yes, I still eat liver an onions!). I agree that while the idea of the practice of slaughtering the animals is good, it don't always go according to the plan. As long as city folk cannot raise their own beef, chickens, etc., this is what we have. Not saying it can't be improved, it can. And I believe someday it will. I prefer to raise my own meat simply cuz I wanna KNOW what gets put in them. I make a deal with them, I feed them awhile, and then they feed me awhile.

 

Just as we look back on the things people did to animals and each other just a hundred years ago as barbaric, so will things we do now seem a hundred years from now. We are not a finished life form. We continue to grow and learn. It ain't perfect by any means. But it's what we have for now. Change will come. Nothing ever stays the same. When any species continues to do exactly the same thing, it usually dies out.

[Black Watch Debatable]

IronHorse, you may be interested in this article. As Gina Spadafori put it [her Dogma blog provided the link]:

[A]gribusiness has not only made us fat, put family farms out of business, polluted everything and treated animals in ways so horrible we'd better pray heaven isn't run by pigs, but also made food taste like crap.

Here you go: Amber Fields of Bland. It's about the new farm bill.

Unless you?re a farmers? market devotee or savvy Internet user, or happen to live near a market that supports good animal husbandry, you depend on a system that raises animals in confinement. That?s very large confinement ? several thousand pigs to a barn, tens of thousands of chickens. The industrial model is efficiency through uniformity. A tastier model would be flavor through diversity ? but the current farm bill won?t allow it [...]A one-size-fits-all mentality dictates that mom-and-pop slaughterhouses must follow the same rules of inspection as industrial plants, even though these huge meat processors typically slaughter more cattle in a single hour (390 by Agriculture Department estimates) than their counterparts might see in a whole year.

Good read.

[kelpiegirl]

Since I am not 1/10 as passionate about this topic as some others, I am going to defer to other's more (clearly) informed opinions on the topic. I am going to stick to just dogs (and not their fur from now on).

Glenn, you asked "define proven working ability" (which seems weird in this thread..) but if you wish to really know- I can direct you to some really really nice working Border Collies

Julie