How Do You Decide?

[Kerrigan]

I wasn't really sure which section was best to post this, so hope this one is right. These questions are for those of you who breed working BC's. I hope they don't seem silly, but I'm from an AKC background and I'm just trying to learn more .

 

I understand that you can't really know how good the working ability is on a dog until it is several years old and has proven itself. I also understand that different handlers will have different preferences regarding specific herding traits in a dog, so realize that this is bound to be subjective to some degree. Here are my questions:

 

When you do breed a litter, how do you choose which pup(s) to keep for yourselves? Are there specific things you are looking for that may indicate a certain pup or pups will have the amount of working ability and herding traits you desire? Can you tell in a very young puppy or is it more of a gut feeling type of thing, something you just inwardly "know" from experience? Do most/all/any of you test young 7-8 week old pups on stock?

[Miztiki]

I don't know but I'm going to guess since I'm bored to death and have nothing better to do.

 

From a well bred litter I would guess that the breeder would pick whatever pup appealed to them most since all of them should have what it takes in them.

 

The reason I guess this is because the things that make a dog a good herding dog are heritable, just like physical characteristics.

 

For your second question I would guess no, and that's slightly more than a guess. From what I've read, the pups are introduced on stock at 6 months and older and actually kept from stock until then, to prevent any unwanted behavior.

 

Those are uneducated guesses though! It will be interesting to see how others answer.

[PennyT]

Many people just keep the pup no one else picked. I like to make someone choose for me; otherwise, I'm looking for the ones that remind me of parents or grandparents or greatgrandparents or great-greats that I liked if I knew the dogs. This is not a sure way to do it, no process is, but it is entertaining.

 

Some pups will work as young as six weeks, some won't. While it's fun to watch if they do work that young, it doesn't matter. I don't put them on stock that young on purpose because then I have to chase after them too much all the time until they're old enough to train. In fact, I better get outside right now.

 

Back inside now: Whew, no working puppies yet but I just heard a horrible crash from the garage.

 

Checked up: Just a vigorous game of ring around the backyard barbecue.

 

Here's what I just did with the four I got from an oops where I own the sire and a friend owns the dam. I let another friend have the pick of the four. Then I got out all the pictures I have of sires and dams in the direct lines going back five generations (I don't have many on the dam's side) and also all the pictures I have of collaterals. I mulled over the photos studiously. Then I picked the two puppies I was going to pick anyway, one because she reminds me in build and attitude of her grandmother and one because she is sweet and outgoing.

[Howdyjabo]

Originally posted by Kerrigan:

"When you do breed a litter, how do you choose which pup(s) to keep for yourselves?"

 

The best dogs I have had were the ones no one else wanted -- but I really think you just pick and make the most of it.

 

"Are there specific things you are looking for that may indicate a certain pup or pups will have the amount of working ability and herding traits you desire?"

 

Nope-- thats our whole point no one can tell anything about a dog till its working.

 

 

"Can you tell in a very young puppy or is it more of a gut feeling type of thing, something you just inwardly "know" from experience?"

 

Sometimes you get a gut feeling-- sometimes its right sometimes its wrong. But I'd rather be wrong and have gone with my gut feeling.

 

"Do most/all/any of you test young 7-8 week old pups on stock?"

 

NO -- theres nothing there to test yet so its a waste ---why bother with it. Thats an ego trip for the owner.

 

[Howdyjabo]

I don't take mine to stock till I am ready to start them in ernest.

I like to keep them from "turning on" for as long as I can.

Its harder to keep them hanging around with you once they turn on(since I have stock ALL over the place)-so they end up spending more time in the kennell.

[Jodi]

Thats an ego trip for the owner.

I never thought of it that way, but can see how there is some truth to that in watching some people brag. I think it's way too dangerous. If a pup that young gets challenged and/or hurt at that young of an age, it may never want to go back to stock.

 

As far as picking puppies ... we had a choice of two, and I made my husband decide. I figured that method was as good as any at that age.

 

Jodi

[Kerrigan]

Thanks for answering my questions. One of the reasons I was asking in particular about testing pups so young on stock is that someone I know was telling me that my trainer was basically BAD (trains all herding breeds) and didn't know anything about BC's if she wouldn't test pups that young. I think my trainer has the pups safety in mind. The very youngest she will test a puppy is 4 mos. old and then just once. She won't let it on stock again at her place until the puppy is at least 6 mos. old.

 

The person who told me that is a herding person and I know she competes in the various venues of arena trials, maybe open trials too - but not sure on that. She stated that everyone tested pups that young, BC pups weren't stupid about stock and she said she'd been doing it that way for 15 yrs. My feeling is that BC pups aren't stupid, but they are babies and accidents happen. I guess to each their own?

 

Testing pups that young seemed contrary to everything I had been reading on the boards for the last couple of years and just didn't sound right to me. However, I hadn't really seen this topic in particular discussed and thought I'd check in with folks whose knowledge I trust.

 

Right now I'm in learning mode regarding herding with my Barbie fluff butts , but in a couple of years I would like to get a working BC to trial with, but will probably get a started dog. If I got a puppy, then I think I'd probably let the breeder pick.

[Kerrigan]

PennyT ~ We just had the morning round of Zoomies and BC wrestling too. Mine do it every morning like clockwork.

[PennyT]

I forgot an approach to choosing. One time I called the doggy psychic and asked her which pup the dam said to keep. I have no idea if this worked because I didn't heed the answer. It was amusing to do though, and I have always regretted not keeping that pup to raise myself.

 

Testing very young pups on stock: I think it's fine to do but not necessary. I ruined a talented pup by starting her too young because she looked so cute bringing in some Rambouillet ewes at 16 weeks. When she was old enough to take training pressure, she was accustomed to doing everything her way. Also, not all talented dogs turn on to stock before 10 months or maybe a year. Some do, but not all.

 

For a few years after starting a pup too early, I believed that the longer I could wait the better. I've modified that somewhat. I am itching to try the pups I have now who are under five months. I'm not doing it...yet. Tomorrow I might not be able to resist even though I know it's asking for trouble in terms of sheep chasing.

 

Penny

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm a big believer that if you've taken great care in picking the breeding that is mostly likely to yield what you need, then you can just pick a pup based on something pretty arbitrary. I picked Ann because I thought her looks were neat, basically.

 

The key is to try to guess what would be the worst result of the cross you are looking at (never assume the best) and if you can live with that, you can be pretty secure picking any pup in the litter.

 

If you are a novice to working breedings, it's best to go with a cross that is a repeat, after familiarizing yourself with multiple siblings of your pup-to-be, plus siblings of the parents and grandparents if possible. Look for a lot of consistency in ability and style.

 

Then pick the pup that appeals to you most for whatever reason. You are likely to go through both good times and bad with this pup - it's best if you have an emotional connection of some sort right off the bat.

[Kerrigan]

Just to clarify, this person was referring to just testing 7 week old pups once to see their reactions to stock and not actually starting to train them on stock.

 

Rebecca ~ thanks for the advice regarding working breedings. I think you are right about having the emotional connection. Kind of having a problem with that with one of my 1 yr old dogs now.

 

PennyT ~ It's SO hard to wait sometimes, isn't it?

 

Killer H, Miztiki and Jodi ~ Thanks for your advice and thoughts also.

 

I really enjoy hearing how people pick the animals in their lives (or maybe its the animals who choose the people in theirs ).

[Kerrigan]

OK, I have a couple of more questions although maybe I should move these to the health & genetics section . I was reading the articles regarding breeding for herding traits and previous studies, which were quite interesting.

 

Do you breed parents that have similar herding traits, or do you want to breed to a dog who has herding traits that will compliment or strengthen the herding traits your dog has? Have you found in breedings that you have done that the pups all pretty much work the same? Or have you found that some work more like sire, some more like dam, and some a combination of herding traits from both parents? Have you found that it may vary depending on what herding traits you are breeding for?

 

Are there any good books that cover this topic?

 

Thanks again for answering my questions.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

How do I pick pups......one that seems to catch my eye whether she/he is bold, outgoing, clever or something.......or in some cases like Tess....she picked me...I didn't want her and was going to ship her off but she managed to convince me that she was the best thing since sliced bread....and now she is my right hand......it's a dice roll.......some of the pups have worked out and some haven't.

 

I take my pups for a spin in the round pen when they are 3-4 months old. Tess is helping in the pen and I have puppy sheep.....what they look like at 4 months in a round pen may be far different when they are one yr.

 

Diane

[Smokjbc]

Hello,

 

I've only bred two litters, and the pup that "stuck" definitely picked me from the get go and she's just a great little dog. The pup from the first litter I picked because he looked pretty cool- and he was my first in a line of "dud males"- so after that I asked for a female pups. I've always wanted a really great male dog, but when this last turn came around, I just couldn't bring myself to risk it again. So Mike got the male pup, I got another female ( I do admit for asking for the flashy one ). What do you know- the male pup Mike got is a pistol- I think he's going to grow up into quite a dog. My female pup is doing well, in an entirely different way. The male pup is definitely ready to be "trained" , while my pup is still a puppyish girl. She's starting to look ready- and I'm itching to steal her brother. She will get there, just too busy growing (what did you send me Diane- she's a giraffe in Border Collie clothing . On the other hand, the male pup and I would probably bash heads more, so its probably just as well.

 

She did suddenly decide that, like her brother, she really likes the heads- she's one of those pups that is keen but not having enough wrecks. I like pups to have wrecks (occasionally).

 

Finally she had one the other day and before she got it back together she did a "Brice" head shot on my tough ewe. Good girl - won't be long now. As it is, she gets a few minutes on sheep every week- she's not allowed to run me over with them, and we occasionally get a down on balance (a very, very short down) but not showing her much else but bring me sheep and will let her push them in a mini drive if she gets the notion.

 

We showed them sheep at about 3 or 4 months, I think both took a few times to be interested but it was definitely a light switch kind of thing when they did. Brice has spent quite a few sessions just being unattached from sheep- we are on his third week of his working without terrorizing the poor sheep. We started them at that age and only showed them sheep every 2 weeks or so. Right now Brice gets worked about 4 times a week, Bess I work about twice a week and will soon increase that. They will be one year next week (wow!).

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I can't imagine what anyone could think this would tell you. It might be fun to see how the pup would react, but it's not in any way a test because you would learn zip from it (ditto for the pup).

 

I agree with everyone else about picking a pup. I usually see a lot of the pups in their first weeks, and I look for one that seems to have a thinking attitude toward the world and seems to like me. If I were getting a pup that I couldn't see before buying, I'd just ask the breeder to pick one for me -- I'd already have picked the litter because of the breeding, of course, and beyond that it's a crapshoot.

[Shoofly]

I have to admit, it's darned cute to see a baby pup trying to work. This is Jet, a day before she turned 6 weeks old, trying to gather ducks.

 

 

 

 

But that's the only time i've ever done anything like that with one so young. I picked Ben because he was the pup that settled in and snuggled next to me when i held him, his heart thumping slowly and not racing like the other pups. Jet was the only black and white bitch, as i wanted. Gael came up to the edge of the x-pen and said hello, so i picked her. Belle and Bailey were the last pups left in their litters. I picked Zac because of his markings - if he hadn't had the split face, i'd not have picked him. And i picked Tess because she was so darned athletic as a puppy.

 

I thought it was interesting to follow my Spottie's litter over time and see how they turned out compared to how they were as baby puppies. Other than Tess staying an excellent athlete, none of them turned out as i'd have predicted. Zac is much more stable and less noise sensitive than i thought he might be. Nan is a dear, sweet, engaging dog where she was an aloof pup that didn't give a whit for people. She's also a very natural and a nice cooperative worker, where i thought she'd be a tough harded headed dog. Rose was the most outgoing of the litter and she's still friendly, but not the bouncy over bearing monster i thought she might turn into. Katie is much bolder and more confident than i thought she would be, though she's every bit as work driven as expected. It's fun watching them over time. But it's sure convinced me that you can't predict much about how they'll grow up!

[Dixie_Girl]

I had decided on a male and there were only two to pick from. We went when the pups were 5wks old to pick. The one male was real standoffish. Didn't act like he was comfortable being held. Especially if we put him on his back while in the crook of our arms. When we sat him down outside the puppy box, he acted scared and wouldn't move. Jackson was just the opposite. When me, dh or grndson picked him up it was like we were his long lost best friends. He did fine when we put him on his back while holding him. When we sat him down, he was all about what's this? Or this? Or this? So, he was the one we picked. The other pup was marked more like how I liked, but Jackson's attitude was more important. He has not changed his attitude since then. He loves everyone, curious about everything, except grizzly bears, and is going to be the greatest herding dog the world has ever seen.

 

Even if it is only late at night while we dream!~

[Kat's Dogs]

Dazzle's litter went with some aussie pups and got "tested" on ducks (just for the fun of it really) - she was 7 weeks old. She actually did something though (she tried to gather/fetch them).

 

With some really young pups you can still see some of how they will end up. You will see shy/dominant/goofy stuff and and I usually will pick my pup based on that. Once you have found a good litter though, it doesn't really matter all that much which pup you get (well, within reason ).

 

oh, and Shoofly, Jet looks JUST like Dazzle at that age!

[DeltaBluez Tess]

When Jamie wanted to get two pups from me, we discussed what they wanted and what type of handler they would go to. Jamie got Bess, a very smart pup that reminded me of Tess in attitude and personality. Power and biddable, she also just happened to very flashy looking......

 

Now Brice....he went to Mike. He is used to a tougher dog and needed a tougher pup. Brice was very clever as a pup and tough as nails. Fear was not in his book.

 

Both pups were on stock at a young age so I could see what they had....Bess was like her mom (Tess) and wanted to work for you. Brice, well, let's say, no ewe shall be challenging him after his session. Tough, fast and going full bore. Getting him off the stock was like removing a leech after two yrs of not being fed!! For Bess, it was a "puppy, puppy" recall. Both worked the puppy sheep well but with different styles.

 

Mike wanted a pup that tough and a handful Jamie wanted one that could move stock but more biddable.

 

April 2nd is their first b-day.....time flies by quickly.

 

Hope about some new pixs of the Tess/Pleat pups (hint, hint, Jamie)

 

 

Diane

[Black Watch Debatable]

Threadjack [sigh].

 

Introduction to the Yahoo group [with commentary], link courtesy of His Masters Voice:

 

Should the Border Collie ONLY be used for herding?

Should everyone have a right to do whatever discipline they choose with their Border Collie? [Dance, straw man, dance!]

What are your views on this controversial matter? [R!T!FAQ!]

Here in the UK the Birthplace of the Border Collie there does not appear to be a split. Owners from all disciplines respect each others views, or do they? [Ask any of the folks at the The International Sheepdog News. Ask John Atkinson, the next time you're at a trial. Here's his good bitch Sal.]

In the USA there is a definite split with the USBCC and the AKC, the USBCC opposing the AKC's recognition for fear that breeding Border Collies for conformation is ruining the breed.

The Border Collie was recognised by the British KC in 1976 and a breed standard was set, 30 years on the Conformation Border Collie is going strong with many breeders carefully selecting dogs which not only adhere to the standard, but which can also "work." Many successful Conformation dogs seen in the ring, are also dual registered and "work sheep" and, or compete in dog sports. [Fixed that for you. Once again, next time you're at a real sheepdog trial, ask John Atkinson (or any other top handler) for his opinion of your conformation-bred "working" dogs.]

Is the Border Collie still the same versatile dog, bred by working shepherd, or is it now a hobby dog? [Depends. Are you talking about Sal----or Sequoyahpark Mystical Warrior, below?]

 

"Work" is not pushing tame sheep around a small pasture. A healthy dog of any active breed can be trained to do that. Beats me why conformation breeders are so driven to affirm (over and over) their staggering ignorance of real stockwork and real sheepdog and cattledog trials, while insisting (over and over ) that their dogs can "do it all." After a while, this seems very much like willful ignorance. And in the meantime, the Barbarians have transformed a great working breed into little Newfies.

 

I'll stick with Sal, thanks.

[juliepoudrier]

To get back to the original question after the latest attempt at hijacking, I simply choose the pup that appeals to me most. Like someone (Becca?) said, if it's a well-bred working litter there's no reason not to choose the pup that appeals to you most (even if your reason may seem frivolous) or meets whatever other criteria you might have (e.g., female only, rough coat only, smooth only, tri only, whatever) since generally speaking the pups probably have an equal chance of being good workers. I have a friend who simply keeps the pup no one else wanted from a litter. So far that "strategy" has worked just fine for her.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Someone once said to pick the pup you like, and it will please you. If you pick a pup you don't like, it can never please you.

 

The breeder that I got my pups from (Skye, who was killed at six months, and Celt) picked for me, since I wasn't able to go and pick out the pups myself. She knows me and what I am like, and what I do with my dogs, and I trust her judgement.

 

I would trust Julie and a number of other responsible individuals who belong to these boards, to do the same should I ever be in a position (and be acceptable) to get a pup from one of them.

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Kerrigan:

When you do breed a litter, how do you choose which pup(s) to keep for yourselves? Are there specific things you are looking for that may indicate a certain pup or pups will have the amount of working ability and herding traits you desire? Can you tell in a very young puppy or is it more of a gut feeling type of thing, something you just inwardly "know" from experience? Do most/all/any of you test young 7-8 week old pups on stock?

It's easy. Just pick the one with the most black on the roof of it's mouth.

 

Regards

[Pipedream Farm]

For me, I try to pick the one whose temperament I like best. I try to go with the one that is the most focused on me and not overly hyper, but not dull either. I feel that irregardless of anything else, I need one I can live with off stock as well as on. All things being equal, I like tri smooths. The last pup I got is a rough coated, split face with one blue eye. She's totally not my kind of dog in terms of looks. However, the breeding interested me and her temperament was exactly what I like so I brought her home anyhow. So far I think I've made the right choice (fingers crossed!)

Renee

[Sue R]

Renee - If Bette doesn't suit you, you can just send her to me. I'll even come pick her up and save you the "postage".