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PennyT's Achievements


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  1. Please, someone pm me an address for his widow. Dan was a person whose kindness attracted everyone. I wish to write the family. Penny
  2. He owned at least two sheepdogs. He never managed to train one, that's a fact. At a clinic, I heard him lie about not ever owning one before the second. He was called on the lie because he didn't realize that the person who owned the dog after him in 1987 was there and spoke up. He may have been a wonderful pet dog trainer.
  3. "Geonni, I think I recall your posting some time ago a link to some of Elaine Ostrander's genome research showing border collies clustering more with hunting dogs (including spaniels) than with modern Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs, which I find extremely interesting, even though I really don't know what to make of it or know whether anything at all should be made of it at this stage." I'm going to go track this down. I'll be surprised if either Kay Pine or Elaine Ostrander can know the truth about the Gordon setter or the spaniel tale.
  4. I know that you are simply suggesting discussion. Why else would I be so pleasant without something to breed away from with outcrosses? What we need to know is why care about drift or a founder effect, which is over and done now, without a problem? Hey, I could care less about pure bloodlines. I had a ROM bitch.
  5. "Somewhere I read there were spaniel type dogs in the mix. I assume that the spaniels were chosen for some particular trait." I guess you're thinking of the Gordon setter debate which raged back and forth over whether a collie cross went into the Gordon setter or the Gordon setter went into the collie. If that isn't what you're thinking of, I would love to have a reference because I am not familiar with the spaniel story. "I was intrigued by the story in Pedigree Dogs Exposed:3 Years On in which the Dalmation breeder crossed his dogs with an English Pointer. He did this because he was trying to eliminate a genetic defect in his dogs." What defect would you be breeding away from in Border collies? I think the Dalmatian outcross was to produce dogs that look like Dalmatians but don't carry deafness, a hefty problem. If you're thinking expanding the gene pool just for the sake of it, I recommend New Zealand heading dogs in addition to kelpies. Get yourself some and have at. Both strains come from collies prior to Wiston Cap without the drawbacks of KC Border collies from either Australia or New Zealand. "But the owner of a sheepdog 'in the long ago' might have crossed his dog with a greyhound type." Apparently could and did. That is the tale of how lurchers came to be, and going back to the Gordon setter tale, similar to why Gordon wanted his employee's (also said to be a poacher) dog in the mix: she was a good retriever, black and tan, and intelligent. I add that the truth of those stories is not verifiable, any more than J.P. Morgan adding Borzoi to the AKC collie is. I am under the impression that a genetic bottleneck is descriptive of a problem, not simply a situation. Is this not the case? Edited to add: Oh dear, I think you're drawing on the origin section on these Boards for the spaniel story. It's not verifiable or in "there can be little doubt" category. Eileen wrote that a long time ago. I don't know where she got it, maybe Iris Combe who sometimes wrote stockdog history by fiat. The story is probably fairly recent, like in the last 100 years, because until around 1850 and even thereafter with some well founded dissent, the stockdog or landrace collie type was viewed as the basic strain from which others developed.
  6. "The shepherds of old drew upon a rich genetic base to create these breeds." I'm curious about what this statement means. Shepherds of old would have had only the dogs in easy proximity to draw on. Drovers would have had more, I suppose, but still nowhere near what anyone has today.
  7. Andrew, in a recent issue of Sheepdog News,has a piece that includes a picture of a young woman in the late 19th century or maybe very early 20th, who may have entered a trial or two. She was the daughter of someone never noted for his skill but the color lithograph of her with dog is terrific. I have a few records of women trialing from the early 1900s in Great Britain, not much, and one from the 1800s. Andrew is the person to ask.
  8. My word. Thanks, Journey and thanks, Mark. That was what I wanted to know. The piece on both bloggers is a gem. About 2 years ago, I took a brief look at the know nothing's take on Border collie history and noted the assertions were so far off plumb as not to be worth reading through. He seemed to think he had proven that all old photos and portraits of Scotch collies, for example one of Queen Victoria's (I forget which one, maybe a dog called Sharp), showed conclusively that all were Border collies on the basis of looks. He was naive yet wrote with such foolish conviction that I couldn't stomach further reading.
  9. I resurrected this thread for two reasons. First, in the PDE/Crufts thread Ooky mentioned cognitive dissonance. Second, I googled the Crufts vet checks. To my amazement, a nameless know nothing now has a modestly successful blog in which he lambastes, for example, the lying Clumber spaniel breeder while continuing to maintain that breeding Border collies for sport is dandy and simply something on the order of parallel evolution. Then I looked up cognitive dissonance to make sure I remembered what it was with reasonable accuracy. I did. The blogger is, indeed, like the fox in the fable who couldn't reach the grapes. This led me to a question: Has the person become respectable? Is it possible? Checking his links, I noted a reference to retrieverman but none (I think none, I could have missed it) to terrierman. This makes me wonder about retrieverman's reputation. I'm pretty sure there are a number of dog blog readers on these Boards. Will someone voice an opinion on the two blogs in question. I'm avoiding the name of the first one as best I can. If you don't know it, private message me through the Boards system.
  10. In terms of filming tricks, I love the shot where the entire packet of pub sheep goes behind a tree then all save three splitters come out the other side.
  11. I looked at this post because in the general table of forums the topic line for the most recent entry was "The proper purpose of sheep," which intrigued me as a question I have not much pondered.
  12. When she gets back, someone remember--I probably won't--to ask her about Buser's training and how he keeps his dogs in relation to that. Her account to me of visiting him a year or two ago was fascinating and unlike anything I had heard of.
  13. Someone in Georgia should know. Trig was a good dog as I recall.
  14. "Penny, are you claiming there are health issues with Mm?" I don't need to make so extravagant a claim for the argument to hold. Let's take the case of CEA go-normals bred with carriers or clears or even affected to affected. The ultimate aim is to breed through CEA without losing other genetic components and narrowing the gene pool. Ethical breeders will do this; however, even from ethical hands dogs will slip through to the mills and people who can't help but breed everything and so on. The number of affected dogs this happens to will decrease gradually and eventually reduce numbers. With merle, that can never happen because merle is the valued quality. That dominant gene has to be there waiting to pounce. Mark, I never for a moment thought were doing anything other than being devil's advocate. That's why I responded in the first place. My position is not based on which goal is preferable although I am comfortable with the value argument as the best. I didn't answer that way because I thought you wanted to avoid that line of reasoning. Concerning merle to merle, I have never heard anyone with working border collies regarding CEA say anything as simultaneously specious and pompous as this: "Doing a merle-to-merle breeding should only be done by experienced and knowledgeable breeders, and only when a suitable non-merle with the desired quality is not available." Of course, I doubt anyone would dare.
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