How working breeds are lost

[juliepoudrier]

Well said, Katelynn.

 

J.

[Howdyjabo]

I'm less than half as good as you think 47 words

 

I lack skills with the written word- So I had better keep it short .

[Bill Fosher]

Laurie writes:

who's to say that dogs who never perform will produce any less if they are genetically similar

 

Time to do a little deconstruction.

 

Who's to say that dogs who never perform will produce any less...

 

Who's to say they won't? If you take the above approach, then yes, breeding is worse than a crap shoot because you don't even know how many sides are on the dice before you roll them, let alone what the odds a particular point coming up are.

 

... If they are genetically similar

 

This reminds me of something my stepdaughter said when she was about four years old. She was telling us how to make bacon. The first step was "Find a pig that has died." Skip right over the messy and difficult part and assume that we have dogs that are genetically similar.

 

And how does one know if dogs that have not been worked are genetically similar to those that have? Sure, they may have common ancestors, but you have no idea how the genes have recombined. As Rebecca has pointed out, when a breeding consistently produces a high percentage of really good workers of a particular type, it's remarkable and noteworthy. The fact that dogs are littermates or the same way bred doesn't necessarily predict how -- or even whether -- they will work.

[laurie etc]

I'm baaack....with my analogy of the day...

 

Yep - I'm a faux painter. I have hundreds of variations of red and blue paint tints- Now anybody can recognize that they are different colors, but to a non-painter, all my shades of red and blue would probably be described as just "red" and "blue". It's a scientific fact that if I combine any shade of red and any shade of blue, I'll get some variation of purple every time - but I won't always get the shade of purple that appeals to me, or that I was hoping for... Heck, if i'm not careful, I could end up with such an ugly variation that it looks like mud! Unless I consider exactly what went into that specific red or that specific blue variation, I can't even predict the outcome. But if I understand the distinct qualities of each shade of red and blue I have, then I can combine them to make exactly the purple I was looking for, or at least come close, depending on the dosage of each. And if I remember the dosage of each I used to create that purple, I can replicate it, tweak it, or change it completely.

 

So, if you are looking for a specific purple paint, and don't want "muddy-rotten eggplant", the paint mixing should be left to the painters who know how to recognize the variations in color, evaluate the qualities that make up those variations, and mix them in correct doses to hopefully produce the purple that you need.

[Bill Fosher]

This provides an interesting insight into your thought process. If you take the exact same red and the exact same blue in the exact same proportions, you'll get the exact same purple every time. It takes skill to match colors and to replicate them, but it's basically a technical process, and it's repeatable.

 

Not so for dog breeding.

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by Bill Fosher:

it's basically a technical process, and it's repeatable.

 

Not so for dog breeding.

Bill, very true! And since the dosages of desireable traits in dog breeding aren't tangible or quantifiable... That's where the "artistic" part comes in...The "art of dog breeding" has always involved "eye-balling" - making educated guesses and choices based on performance, experience, gut feelings, trial and error.

 

My point is that someone who at least understands what they are trying to achieve, has a feel for the end product, and can look at the "raw materials" analytically is going to probably be more successful that someone who just starts "throwing colors together".

[Eileen Stein]

Can't argue with that.

[Miztiki]

I'll take Karen's 47 words to heart and believe that I should understand breeding even though I'll never breed.

 

So, my understanding of what Bill said at 7:14 am is that, even if you breed an awesome bitch to an awesome dog and they have an awesome litter, and then they are bred again, that doesn't mean this litter will be awesome too, right? Because you don't know how this gene from this parent matched up with this gene from the other parent, unless you let them grow a bit and then work and train them on stock. They may or may not have what it takes in them, but you won't know unless they are worked and trained on stock. Working and training on stock won't change what's in their genes, but it will point out which genes they've inherited that are and are not wanted in a herding dog. ??

 

Like people having kids - you can know the whole family history from both sides and have already given birth to many children, but you can't predict whether the baby due will be tall or short or blonde or brunette, let alone what their personality will be like when they get older. They'll just be happy with ten fingers and ten toes, and even that is not a given.

 

I'm in way over my head on this thread, but I'm trying to understand.

[juliepoudrier]

I think you're understanding things just fine Miz.

 

J.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Originally posted by Miztiki:

They may or may not have what it takes in them, but you won't know unless they are worked and trained on stock. Working and training on stock won't change what's in their genes, but it will point out which genes they've inherited that are and are not wanted in a herding dog.

That is it!

 

With working, training, and trialing dogs breeders can see what a dog is missing that would make it that "superior" working dog that we are all looking for. With the working, training, and trialing it makes it possible find a mate that will best fit that dog to add in what the breeder feels as though is missing or could be added to.

 

Katelynn

[muggs]

I'm with you Miz- finding these discussions fascinating. I'm sure they are arduous for the veterans on the board, but please realize you are bringing alot to light for those who haven't read it all before. It seems to me to come down to how you value the innate characteristics of the breed. I thought when I got my pup, I did well getting a pup from ABCA reg. parents, was able to look at pedigrees, and talk to the vet. Wrong! I didn't even touch the surface of what I should have done to find a reputable working border collie breeder. Does this mean I have an inferior dog, IMO, no - he's awesome, but there's no telling if he's too watered down to herd livestock. But what it does mean is I may have supported someone breeding that shouldn't have been, which I understand now unto itself is doing a disservice to the breed. I'm going to find out with my own sleuthing. I believe as Karen has said, educating the buyers is the biggest opportunity to save the breed.

[Dixie_Girl]

I think that we are really sliding down the slippery slope I mentioned on the other thread. The other night I typed into search, "border collie puppies". I do that from time to time just to get my puppy "fix". What I saw was just exactly what has been warned about over and over. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE SITE, while promoting "working dogs, on working ranches" on their puppy application, stated in VERY plain black and white, that ALL their puppies were dual registered with ABCA and AKC. AND further more,,,,,,I can hear the question now,,,,,,,,,the way they get around ABCA knowing is that THEY send in the paperwork on the pup to ABCA then give the new owners the neccesary papers to send in for AKC. It was so sickening. Ya know, I probly didn't buy Jackson from the "best" breeders in the southeast, but at least they were adamant apponets of AKC. Check these sites out for yourself if you wanna break your heart...........and feel the alarm at what is really taking place out there! Oh, and one other thing,,,,,,,know what the price of these pups were? $850 spayed/neutered contract,,,,,$1050 for the privalage of breeding these "fine" working dogs,,,,,

[mjk05]

Fascinating discussion, even from an Australian perspective where our issues are somewhat different...

 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned (may have missed it) is that even if ONE person, say a well-known successful agility handler, is seen to be breeding "for agility" then an example is set, some degree of legitimacy is given to breeding for reasons other than work.

 

That original breeder MAY have started with great dogs, may have done a lot of work with them, learnt much about the work, and received a lot of experienced advice regarding their worthiness to breed- but will that be conveyed to all observers? Or will other people, with what they feel are also great agility dogs but less time for "herding", be inspired to breed from their own "working bred" dogs?

 

In my region, "working bred" is the flavour of the month in agility (yes, we're a little slow ), and it seems like everyone wants a "working bred BC" for agility. That's something of a moral/ethical issue for working dog owners- should they even sell to agility homes? Yes, the pups will have a great home, yes, they can go on spay/neuter contracts- but every one of those dogs doing well out there may inspire someone else to look for a "working bred" agility dog...

 

And will there be less discriminating breeders setting up to supply them? Will WE be tempted by the requests for a litter of red pups/tricolour pups etc, and do a breeding we might not otherwise, just because the agility people want them... after all, it might as well be US supplying these nice agility people (who care well for their dogs, and in many cases are my friends) as other people- and does it really matter if its not the best-considered mating, after all they WILL spay/neuter...

 

And there we go, down the slippery slope. I'm playing devil's advocate here, because I do agility, and I'm a big advocate of how wonderful working-bred dogs are.... but we have had requests to breed some of our dogs to others based on agility ability +/or colours.

 

Agility in my region is such a tiny market, especially compared to the farming market, I don't think its a big issue in reality here... but its an interesting ethical dilemma.

[Bill Fosher]

Dixie Girl,

 

One way to console yourself is that while you might see a lot of websites hocking dual registered pups of questionable working ability, it's only that way because those are the people who need to advertise. The people who have the good ones generally don't have websites, and often have litters sold before they are even bred. As I said in the other thread, the Border collie culture is one of reputation.

[Dixie_Girl]

Thanks Bill, I understand that about the reputable breeders not advertising. My worry is that just typing in what I did took me to those sites and anyone seeing an agility or flyball competition will gush over wanting one, they are the ones who will buy and breed. The thing that really got me is the price! Am I wrong in thinking that even the pups coming from the best dogXbitch rarely goes over $500? Mostly $400-$500 range? Now if these people are paying $1000 for a pup, it won't take long to calculate that a litter of pups is going to bring them $6-8000! Where do you think their motivation will be? And when others see the $$$$ being thrown around it, IMO, won't take long.......And these people are already AKC awed. AKC WILL end up with the dogs they need,,,,,,,and that is what is going to be the downfall. And I agreee wholeheartly with you about the TRUE BC culture being one of reputation. The ones working the dogs know what crosses will MOST likely give them the pup they need. But I am looking at the wall,,,,,,,and I see writing on it.

[juliepoudrier]

Dixie_Girl,

One of the arguments I have heard from folks who dual register is that they do so because they can sell pups at a much higher price (especially if the pups are "special" colors) to the AKC types. $$ talks, unfortunately....

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Truer words were never typed. Even more a propos to the US, where agility is not a tiny market, it's a big and growing market. And there are many in that tantalizing market who won't want a spay/neuter agreement -- they'll want the option to breed if the pup turns out to be awesome -- and that's the next temptation and the next little slide down the slope.

[Sue R]

I was at a website one time that advertised dogs from "working lines". A litter listed with the dam from working lines but herself a successful dog in agility, had a price tag well above any of the other pups listed.

 

I have seen some awfully well-bred and responsibly-bred pups from well-matched and proven working sires and dams, sell for half or less of what a "sports-bred" or "conformation-bred" pup will sell for.

 

It is too bad that people can and/or will pay much more for a dog with "entertainment" value than one that will be useful on the farm.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

You're not wrong. When you're breeding with the idea of producing good working dogs for farmers and ranchers, which of course is how border collies were traditionally bred, you're not going to inflate your prices, because the people you're breeding the dogs for couldn't afford it. But it doesn't take long to see that "city folks" will pay a lot more for pups. That attracts the unprincipled to breeding, and inevitably tempts the principled who are already breeding to sell to -- and eventually to breed in a way that attracts and satisfies -- the big spenders.

 

It's sort of like land. What's a piece of land worth? Well, there's the farmer's price, and then there's the developer's price, and a big gap between them.

 

Yeah, $$ talks.

[sea4th]

they'll want the option to breed if the pup turns out to be awesome -- and that's the next temptation and the next little slide down the slope.

Just my two cents:

I bred two litters my entire life both with the intention to produce working dogs. Satchmo, who is from the first litter, will attest to the fact that it wasn't looks I was going after. It was with the second litter, that the realization sunk in, that although I know dogs, much more so than the average person, that I know border collies more than the average person, that what I know about producing border collies still is in no way near enough to justify breeding them. It's not that the pups were washouts. On the contrary, they are pretty decent, but it slowly seeped into my brain that in order to produce the best dogs, you have to have a handle on the fine nuances of stock and stockdogs--fine nuances---that's something that isn't readily available to a rookie, no matter how many years they have "in dogs". That wasn't an option for me then. It's not now. To produce otherwise, would be to produce mediocre dogs. As a result, my bitches are spayed and most of my males are neutered (I have 14 dogs, so a mass sterilization would have been cost prohibitive, in case anyone wonders why they are not all "fixed"). For me, personally, rescue is the way to go--I found my niche with rescue.

 

One of the pups from the first litter, Satchmo's litter, went to a really nice person as her first border collie, a person who was interested in agility or flyball. This particular breeding produced some tough pups. In fact, I was wondering whether or not this little bitch pup was too much dog for her owner. The owner stuck with it, really worked with the dog--who is now the sixth fastest flyball dog in the country. She would tell me how flyball folks---with some of the top flyball dogs in the country, wanted pups out of her and she expressed her dismay that she had the dog spayed. Yeh, that dog could have turned out to be quite profitable, cranking out flyball dogs, but in our conversations, as well as I'm sure talking to others, the owner has come around to realizing, that she can also get a good flyball dog from rescue, or from working bred dogs. She has since gotten her second BC from rescue. The little bitch she got from me continues to be a kick butt flyball dog, but since it became known that she's spayed, she no longer has to deal with the temptation of breeding pups for flyball. It's a relief.

[IronHorse]

Dixie_Girl Wrote;

Check these sites out for yourself if you wanna break your heart...........and feel the alarm at what is really taking place out there! Oh, and one other thing,,,,,,,know what the price of these pups were? $850 spayed/neutered contract,,,,,$1050 for the privalage of breeding these "fine" working dogs,,,,,

A suggestion when you browse these websites.

Take the time to write an email and politely invite the person to visit these boards,do not flame,do not condemn do not attempt to tell them how wrong they are and how detrimental their pratices are to the wellfare of the Border Collie, just make an enticing invitation for them to visit these boards.

 

I speak from experince when I say that these boards CAN make a difference, perhaps to a very few but even if just one comes and keeps an open mind and by doing so it changes their outlook and philosophy for the better as to why Border Collies should and should not be bred then you have made a major contribution to the education of the future of the breed.

Although it may appear to be only a ripple in a very large lake,you must keep in mind that from the smallest of ripples the largest of waves can develop.

 

Although I am not a breeder nor do I intend to ever be one, I was very much involved in the promotion and sales of Border Collies for all the wrong reasons prior to finding these boards. I have since become a stanch advocate of protecting the intregrity of the "working Border Collie" due to a great degree in what I have learned here. I hope that my efforts on the street have a positive effect on at least some potential breeders as well as buyers.

 

As many have stated in various threads "Education" is the key and believe me my education has not come free and I am continuing to learn as each day goes by.

 

Just give those breeders the oppurtunity to become educated prior to condemning their actions.

Point them to the water hole and give them the chance to drink.

[Dixie_Girl]

IronHorse, that was the first thought that crossed my mind while I read through those web sites. I may still do it. But what stopped me was a 7 page, 253 response thread that could not even get the "opponets" to concede there COULD be a prob. And from the looks of these sites, these people had all it takes to create the faux authority on border collies. They are knowledegable enough to know ABCA needs to be in there somewhere, that the term "working border collie" is vital to attract the ones they want. And, if you just check out the web site it seems oh so legit. It wasn't until I looked at the app. that I saw it for what it was. So, I don't know. Maybe I will go ahead and invite them,,,,as you said, nicely,,,,,and see what happens.....maybe we could get one to see the light.......

 

 

As the sun set, the little dog silently waited. As he had waited all day. The man would come, he was sure, as he had come every day before. He couldn't hear the sheep, but he still smelled them. Those people kept trying to call him in, but he knew his job. He didn't know the sheep were silent forever, as they had been moved to one of only 4 sheep ranches in the country. Ranches that didn't need dogs, as the sheep were kept in pens until slaughtered or shorn. He didn't know that the old man had died, and that he was the last "home" rancher. Just as he didn't know he was the last little black and white dog known as a border collie that knew a job of sheperding. And he still waited........