Jon Katz's Fly (the one paid for after the fact)

[czrabbit]

Thank you Devi, for your thoughtful words. I have not read any of Katz books, and I wasn't defending him, per se. I stumbled onto this thread and the comments struck me as hurtful, most likely because they were so fresh and familiar to me.

 

I try as much as possible to ignore the people who say crazy things - and refuse to let them draw me into a place of arguement.

 

I do retract my statement regarding those who "speculate and draw the worst conclusions about what one doesn’t really know", because it's clear that I - not having read the books - am the one who is speculating and drawing conclusions when I don't know the facts. I sincerely apologize.

 

Thank you again for being kind and taking the time to respond. I very much appreciate that.

[bcnewe2]

Since coming to these boards I’ve questioned why some people post to the point of nauseum, reasons they may need to rehome a dog, whether it be they cannot afford a chronic condition, or the dog is too silly and doesn’t get along with the other dogs or bites or for whatever reason it just doesn’t fit into their life or existing pack or family – they agonize and apologize and carry on for pages, then after “standing trial” they happily announce that the dog has found it’s perfect forever home, everyone claps and calls it a day. I’ve also read many accounts of people who agonize and finally decided Fluffy’s time had come and they put their dogs down. That’s a fact of life and humane and seems to be ok with everyone – as long as the decision is played out on these pages and the person is deemed adequately heartbroken.

 

I can't speak for anyone else but I'll speak for myself.

I am not one to judge what is done with your pet or working dogs. For me, the best interest of “my” dog is my biggest criteria for weather a dog stays or goes, my second criteria would be my household’s health and happiness.

I own more than just a beloved pet or 2. We have 7 dogs at the moment. I have rehomed quite a few that have come through my door, either as rescues that I tried to work into our family or dogs that I knew we were only a stop gap for. There has also been the occasional working dog that is not working for me so I find a home where the dog will work for the new owner better than myself. I don't feel bad about what anyone says. It's my business.

 

When I first started in working dogs, I was way more into "forever" dogs than I am now. In my perfect world I'd keep every dog that came into my life. But my life is far from perfect so I do what I decide I need to do. I don't ask for permission from the people here or anywhere. I find that in my own heart and family.

 

I'm sorry if someone gave you hell for rehoming a dog. Maybe you shouldn't have posted unless you were ready for different opinions. When I post about a dog I'm looking to rehome, I really don't care what other people think, only that the dog finds the right home. Maybe I do care, but I don't let it bother me if it's not what I'm looking to hear. For me, what matters is if I can live with my own personal decisions.

 

What Katz's does is put his stories out there for everyone to read. I have a right to what I think and Katz writing books meant for the public makes it a public matter for discussing. IMHO he's a pompous a** and I can live with that thought and I bet he isn't losing any sleep over my opinion either.

 

Kristen

[czrabbit]

Kristin - I agree with you 100%. Katz apparently did whatever he did and published it for the world to see so knowing that, I can see how conclusions could be made and bandied about.

 

I didn't ask permission from either board about rehoming and like you, I drew my conclusions as to what was best for me and my family within my own heart. I didn't post that I intended to re-home - and I certainly wasn't prepared for the opinions that cropped up anyway. I think most people who've lived beyond their twenties realize that decisions have to be made and it's not alway best to assemble a consortium, but only consult those who are actively involved.

 

I'm sorry to have brought this up on this board. Most here seem like rationale adults. Apparently I'm still a bit stung by the posted accusations toward me, and I definitely should not color the whole board with the broad strokes of those inconsiderate few.

 

My apologies to everyone else.

[bcnewe2]

Apparently I'm still a bit stung by the posted accusations toward me

 

czrabbit

I guess we all would like to have the majority’s approval and that might be what we look for when posting a heart question or issue. You're right, only with age do we learn to make our own decisions and learn to live with those consequences. Be whatever they are.

 

As I get older I realize that those stupid old sayings we hear when growing up usually have have some true meanings.

 

Live and Learn

Kristen

[czrabbit]

 

Kathi

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

Yes, yes, I do so agree!!! AK dog doc! And I too must apologize for inserting a side opinion on this topic. but Jon Katz makes me very ill too!!! very narcissistic and selfish beyond belief. When I read his book A Dog Year I was absolutely horrified by the way he played favorites with his dogs. He would gush on and on about his precious Labs and his new B.C. puppy Homer, whereas the supposed star of the book Devon/Orson would be called Devil Dog, Weirdo, etc. And this is humor??? And who was on the cover? not the main protagonist dog Devon/Orson but Homer. Again this awful favoritism and lack of working with and respecting every dog's unique personalities and struggles. What a huge difference compared with my beloved author Patricia McConnell (The Other End of the Leash) in which each of her dogs are beloved. I was absolutely infuriated by "A Dog Year"!! And it looks like his subsequent books are equally awful... but granted I have not read his subsequent books, so I have no right to judge without reading the other books, but oh, the horror and mistake of buying his first book...AAARGGH!!! I had seen just a paragraph or 2 from Amazon at that time but within the 1st chapter I was totally flipping out over the man's lack of common sense and horrible insensitivity... And NOW I read that he euthanized ORSON!!!???!!! What???!!! and wrote about it? I am about to have cardiac arrest!

 

But back to the subject of rehoming, I think there is always a story behind every one's sincere attempts to rehome... I think everyone is just on a roll with the anti-Katz, because he has attitudes which I feel are extremely harmful and misguided. Please don't take things as an attack, CZ Rabbit. We just happen to launch on this anti-Katz thing because it is very disturbing that he is so "esteemed" as a dog writer. It's nothing to do with you so much as how worrisome this Katz issue is. For example, this horrible man was even featured in an AKC article on herding JUST THIS PAST Month!! My head is absolutely spinning with rage.

[Barb Scott]

This was just posted on another BC list! Most of them love thje man... :-(

Barb S

 

A Dog Year

A Dog Year is a movie directed by first time director George LaVoo

starring Jeff Bridges. The film should be released in late 2007

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Bleurgh. I wonder whether the ACK knows how they just undermined any shred of respectibility they might have had on the subject of herding, by using Katz as an "expert reference."

[Black Watch Debatable]

Pretty much everything he writes makes me want to puke. He's such a poser.

 

Slate article.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You'd have to search pretty long and hard to find more sanctimonious, self-absorbed drivel. It's the shorter, ovine version of the story of Orson with a twist - "Why I think all of you who might have given Orson a chance, are all washed up."

[stockdogranch]

He's such a poser.

 

Luisa, you spend waaay too much time with adolescents!

 

Anna (who is literally on her way outside with the .22 for a ewe with OPP)

[Bill Fosher]

Well, I agree with Katz about not giving away sheep for pets. I also agree with his underlying premise that people who make pets out of them do them a disservice in the long run. However, when he writes that sick sheep seldom survive, that's one of the biggest cop outs and no vet worth his or her salt would agree with it for any reason other than politeness. Sick sheep should have been seen sooner is more like it.

 

From everything he describes, the mysterious infection sounds like parasitism -- not too mysterious at all. If it weren't that, it was probably a cobalt deficiency. Both conditions would have been easily treatable before the animal was debilitated.

 

And you know what? When he shot the lamb in the back of the head, twice, it didn't die instantly. It was stunned, perhaps by the second shot, and died gradually from blood internal blood loss. It probably didn't suffer much, but he should learn how to euthanize animals if he's going to write about it. A single shot or blow to the head at the point where two imaginary lines drawn from the left eye to the right ear and the right eye to the left ear would cross stuns the animal. A cut jugular vein allows the animal to bleed out quickly, never regaining consciousness. Done correctly, the lights go out and that's that.

 

Whether that's more humane to a debilitated animal than a lethal injection, I don't know. But animals euthanized by lethal injections are hazardous waste, and the meat is toxic to any critter that digs it up and eats it. Euthanasia by gunshot at least allows me to feed the meat to the dogs so that the animal doesn't go to waste.

[Aliki]

Last I heard, he had Rose, a rescue named Izzy or Issy and a third BC. Not sure where he got the third BC. You'd think the breeder he uses might balk at selling him another dog, given his track record with first the three he obtained from her.

 

He also has 2 labs and these must all be young dogs with Rose being the oldest. Personally, I am very interested to see if any of his dogs pass the age of 8 while living with him.

 

In his book "Dog Days', Clementine, one of his 2 labs, is essentially "given away" to a vet tech. (He calls it "joint custody" where Clem spends most of her time with this technician, and when the technician goes on vacations, Clem returns to Katz for the time). He then has the nerve to write that he's convinced he is doing nothing wrong because the dog Clementine deserves better than living on his farm because she needs more attention than he can give her.

 

But though 4 dogs is too crowded for Clementine the lab, it's not too crowded for Emma. So how is he able to look after this 5th dog Emma?

[Shetlander]

He then has the nerve to write that he's convinced he is doing nothing wrong because the dog Clementine deserves better than living on his farm because she needs more attention than he can give her.

 

Yeah, but you have to admit, Clementine does deserve better than living with him. Don't you think? She may have a chance of making it to old age if she is out of his clutches.

 

But though 4 dogs is too crowded for Clementine the lab, it's not too crowded for Emma. So how is he able to look after this 5th dog Emma?

 

That is typical Katz being oblivious of or deliberately ignoring how much he contradicts himself. Personally, the more I read his stuff the more I think he just flat out lies to fit whatever little story he's telling at the moment. But back to the 4 dogs being too many, I'd say that old Pearl who he frequently mentions being in such pain and unable to walk far is next on the chopping block. She underwent operations on her legs, but not sure what her issues were. Whatever the problem may be, her bulk sure can't be helping. I thought both labs looked overweight in the photos but especially Pearl.

 

The only dog I don't see him getting rid of as long as he has his farm is Rose but with the way he treats her, I wouldn't be surprised if her life span is the Katz average of 7 or 8.

[BayouBC]

According to his website (I just looked it up), he only has Rose, Izzy, and Emma at the farm. Clementine lives with his physical therapist most of the year, and Pearl is helping his daughter Emma (not the dog) launch her own writing career. Joy...just what we need. Two Katz writers.

[Brandon M]

Yeah, just like Orson and the others, right, Jon? Maybe you just love them to death, while you make money and gain fame with their sad stories...

well said..

[DukeDog40]

Ok..time to jump in on this.. I have read 2 Katz books and am working on his others. In the case of Orson: I don't think that we would be having this conversation if he were a bully breed like a pitbull or rott. If he were, after the first bite incident the dog would have been removed and killed by the state. Orson was a biter. I was VERY sad to read about him being put down, don't get me wrong, but would you re-home a aggressive dog with a history of biting humans? Katz gave himself another option of building a prison-like fence were Orson would be cut off from other people. Would any of your BC's be happy in that situation? Mine would not. The decision he made could not have been easy at all and I am sure he feels remorse and some regret wondering if he did the right thing. If anything his books should encourage us all to work extra hard with our Border Collies to make sure they are trained, behaved and well socialized.

[bcnewe2]

I've managed biters before and not had to put them down. Sometimes they can be rehablitated if worked with properly. I didn't read the book but I don't think Orson was that over the edge. Probably the crazy life he led with Katz put him in the bite zone.

 

I also think he could have put the dog "up" if visitors came around and let the dog lead a very nice life when no one else was around. Drive up's could be warned before exiting the car and the dog could have been put up.

JMO of course.

Kristen

[Eileen Stein]

Orson already had a fenced kennel run. The biting incident for which he was killed occurred when someone put an arm over that fence and he bit it. He had earlier tried to bite someone else who put an arm over that fence, and Katz did nothing. How would making that fence a foot or two taller, so that people couldn't reach over it, have made it "prison-like"? The whole "prison" terminology is just something Katz introduces as self-justification: "It would be wrong to keep my dog in a prison!" "Oh yes, that would be wrong, prisons are bad! Oh yes, Jon, you did the right thing!"

 

The dog was never threatened with intervention by the authorities. Both people Orson bit made light of the incidents. This is how Katz could have kept the dog: Have it in the house or in that run (with higher fencing) when strangers or workmen are around. Enjoy the dog on his 100+ acre farm the rest of the time. Many, many good dog owners have their dog confined more than that in the normal course of their everyday lives. But that wasn't the vision Katz had of himself or of his dog, and so Orson had to die.

[kelpiegirl]

I agree Eileen. It is a matter of management. Dogs bite, it happens. One CAN manage the situation, if one choses too. Of course there are extremes to every case, but I would have to say, if someone put their arms/hands/fingers into a dog's cage, they clearly are lacking a bit of respect. ANY animal, when in an enclosure may be defensive.

Julie

 

Orson already had a fenced kennel run. The biting incident for which he was killed occurred when someone put an arm over that fence and he bit it. He had earlier tried to bite someone else who put an arm over that fence, and Katz did nothing. How would making that fence a foot or two taller, so that people couldn't reach over it, have made it "prison-like"? The whole "prison" terminology is just something Katz introduces as self-justification: "It would be wrong to keep my dog in a prison!" "Oh yes, that would be wrong, prisons are bad! Oh yes, Jon, you did the right thing!"

 

The dog was never threatened with intervention by the authorities. Both people Orson bit made light of the incidents. This is how Katz could have kept the dog: Have it in the house or in that run (with higher fencing) when strangers or workmen are around. Enjoy the dog on his 100+ acre farm the rest of the time. Many, many good dog owners have their dog confined more than that in the normal course of their everyday lives. But that wasn't the vision Katz had of himself or of his dog, and so Orson had to die.

[AK dog doc]

Totally true, what Eileen said.

 

Unless Katz was innundated daily with a zillion visitors over whom he had no control, who would be crawling over the fence and sticking their fingers through the fence and letting Orson out and trying to hug and lay on him, then the "he's a biter/I don't want to imprison him" argument holds no water. It's just another self-serving whine to justify his actions. Katz is, IMO, a lazy, superficial man - intellectually and physically. He wants to be the instant expert. He doesn't bother to do his research, but wants the glory without having put in the time. He's a poor trainer who's making big bucks off his book about training: getting the credit without putting in the work. He doesn't understand dogs themselves and isn't interested in learning. He just wants to throw together some platitudes and personal observations and get a book deal out of it. He doesn't want to put the effort into keeping his old dogs fit and healthy; easier just to kill them and let everyone pat you on the back and boo-hoo about how dogs only live eight years. And God forbid that he keep and/or put any effort into a dog who has outlived his financial usefulness - or who might require some effort to keep. Although maybe you can generate sales off a book about killing him. Hmm, that might work. And then you won't have to deal with the hassle of putting up a higher fence OR retraining the dog OR controlling your visitors (doesn't he say he lives a fairly reclusive life up there? Isn't the point of being reclusive that YOU DON'T HAVE A LOT OF VISITORS? That would sort of suggest that Orson would have a ton of time to run around, being a dog and a companion +/- a sheepdog and living a happy life, even if he wasn't generating cash any more.) Orson is the reason Katz is financially successful as a writer. That was the dog that pushed Katz's work onto the bestseller lists. You would think he'd be worth a little effort in return, no?

 

I think Katz is too lazy and superficial to do the right thing. The minute he has to do some unglamorous work, the minute the slightest bit of tedium or hard work rears its head, the minute it isn't easy and glitzy and profitable any more, he's looking for excuses to bail out. He has no love for his dogs. He has mooshy sentimentality, but when push comes to shove he's looking out for his own comfort and ease, and to hell with what's best for the dog. He's not committed to the dog. If he actually loved them, he would be - and we wouldn't be reading about how all his dogs are rehomed or dead at his hand.

 

Orson's biting was just a convenient excuse. Katz himself is at fault for putting the dog in a position where a bite could occur, IMO; he's either too poor a dog person to have recognized that the risk existed, or else he recognized it but failed to act. Either way he sucks. IMO.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've got three dogs here right now who would bite under the right circumstances. Two of them havebitten my own kids - reactive nipping type stuff. According to Katz, I probably ought to sign their death sentence right now. But first, I know that biting is not biting is not biting - although such dogs aren't safe around kids under normal circumstances, those weren't malicious attacks. The arm over the fence strikes me the same way.

 

Such attempts are "open" - the dog is giving the person room to give him room, and that makes me happy because I know there's some thinking going on there. It's hardest to deal with biting that is associated with pure fear or instinct. It's pretty easy to re-train a thinking biter - most of the time it just involves giving the dog something to think about other than biting, and making sure the dog learns how to control his impluses.

 

Unpredictability is the one thing that puts dogs like this over the edge. I've done a bit of writing and I know the life of a professional writer is not one where you can lead life by a rigid schedule. Or rather, most writers don't. ALL Border Collies love to know exactly what is happening at exactly the same time every day - they are farm dogs, after all: up at four, milk the cows, feed the animals, move out the stock, check the fences, breakfast, etc, etc. That's the life of a farmer - that's NOT the life of a bohemian, lol.

[DukeDog40]

I can agree with keeping Orson put up when strangers are around. I have the same issue with my BC of barking and rushing at strangers. (We are working on it one day at a time) SUGGESTIONS PLEASE! I am just saying that when it comes to biting, it is a touchy subject. Especially with strangers. Lets face it, ALOT of poeple are dog stupid and don't have the commonsense to NOT put their hands and arms in a strange dogs kennel but responsibility still lies with the owner. I must say again that I am not supporting Euthanizing troubled dogs! I am just adding my 2 cents to this discussion.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You might want to start a new thread, with lots of specifics about what happens during these incidents.

[borderbob]

heres a suggestion; dont let katz near your dog.as he clearly has no knoledge on how to rectify or modify behavior issues with ANY dog he "owns"