gcv-border Posted September 21, 2022 Report Share Posted September 21, 2022 The white tip on a border collie tail, AKA the shepherd’s lantern — how unique is that to the border collie breed? Have you seen it in other breeds? And how often? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted September 21, 2022 Report Share Posted September 21, 2022 I think rough and smooth collies and shelties tend to have that as well. Don't know of breeds other than collies who have it as frequently as collies do. Interesting question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosalee Posted September 21, 2022 Report Share Posted September 21, 2022 Both my treeing walker coonhound and mixed breed rescue (unknown mix, perhaps hound/heeler) had white tipped tails. I think it is not uncommon in hound breeds, but I am no expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosalee Posted September 21, 2022 Report Share Posted September 21, 2022 The coonhound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuance Posted September 23, 2022 Report Share Posted September 23, 2022 LOL. google dogs with white tip tails... These tails are labelled as " GAY" Border collies, Burmese mountain dogs, beagle, basset hound ETC on google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted October 3, 2022 Report Share Posted October 3, 2022 White tail tips are not uncommon in dogs, and there's a good reason for it. As I understand it, melanin moves outward from the spinal column during the dog's development, mostly pre-natal but also post-natal. (That's why the black on a dog may increase after birth, but the white never does.) So the regions more remote from the spinal column are more likely to be white (paws, tail tip, even the chest and abdomen), because the melanin "flow" stops before it reaches that far. Also, the term "gay tail" doesn't refer to white on the tail tip, but to a tail that is held high, rather than parallel to or lower than the spinal column. Old time shepherds (and even some modern ones) don't like to see a gay tail on a border collie, because a seriously working border collie will be carrying its tail low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted October 4, 2022 Report Share Posted October 4, 2022 Thanks for that info, Eileen! I never knew that about the melanin, and find it fascinating. I thought that the "gay tail" was about holding it high, and not about the coloration, but since I am not well versed in this I didn't comment on it when someone called it that. Makes sense, especially as you see that since most border collies have that white tip, most working border collies have the white tip to the tail also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amc Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 This thread reminded me of a study I read many years ago about breeding for tameness in silver foxes in Russia. A synopsis is here : https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12052-018-0090-x As the foxes became tamer, their phenotypes changed to include melanin shifts as Eileen referenced, with "shepherd's lanterns" even appearing on tail tips. Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 I’ve read about the fox study, and I’ve even seen a televised piece on it, which was cool. The subject really is fascinating. While it’s not uncommon to see a red fox with a white tip on its tail, the other coat color changes were surprising, to me. Here it is: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 I was and still am fascinated with this study as well. The color change in the coat surprised me as well. I have wondered why. I have also wondered if the start of what we call breeds today came in much the same fashion. People started select breeding for herding ability and those brown dogs slowly became black and white? People selected for scent tracking and the dogs developed longer ears? People took canines north and they grew longer and thicker fur. Of course, those things were then bred on purpose, but I can't help but wonder if the changes started off with the animals themselves, rather than what people thought up all on their own. The same way that people did not tame wild canines and breed them deliberately, but rather wild canines started hanging around early versions of human beings in order to get their food and scraps, and evolved into dogs at the same time we evolved into people because the association was mutually beneficial. I always like to think of people and dogs sort of creating each other. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amc Posted October 7, 2022 Report Share Posted October 7, 2022 Great insight, D'Elle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted October 7, 2022 Report Share Posted October 7, 2022 'Of course, those things were then bred on purpose, but I can't help but wonder if the changes started off with the animals themselves, rather than what people thought up all on their own.' I think the humans noticed that the black and white dogs were easier to see, that dogs that grew thicker coats lived longer and were of more use than the thinner coated dogs. If my memories of biology/evolution are intact animals who survived long enough to breed had an advantage of some kind that animals who didn't survive to breed didn't have. If those advantages were replicable, dogs with longer ears had puppies with longer ears. Dogs whose black and white coats were easier to see than dogs with brown and white coats were more useful to the humans. And biddability to humans probably played a part as well. Humans cared for those canids that contributed to human survival. The canids who didn't contribute as much to human survival were a burden/danger rather than an advantage. R&G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2022 Thanks for the replies. I had not really realized how many dogs have white -tipped tails - although once people started listing them, I said to myself "how could I have forgotten that breed?" Also, thanks to Eileen for the info about melanin distribution. The reason I asked was because I am fostering a stray puppy (found in rural WV as an 8-9 week old) for a border collie rescue group. We also foster and adopt BC mixes. He looks close enough to a BC to be 'accepted' into the foster program, but I keep playing "Guess the Breed" in my mind. I have his pic on my phone and will try to post It, but it may be in a separate post. Feel free to take a guess. Smile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2022 Here is Archie. (next to my 44 lb border collie) He is 4 months, 21 lbs. He can be delightfully energetic, then is also very ready to relax on the couch. He doesn’t display the intensity I associate with purebred border collies. If there is BC in him, I keep thinking that it may be mixed with lab or pit - which are 2 popular breeds for mixes in this area. Or Archie could easily be a mix of multiple breeds and by happy circumstance, just happens to look similar to a BC. I hope whoever adopts him will send a sample to one of the breed ID services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted October 9, 2022 Report Share Posted October 9, 2022 Oh dear, I so love dogs. I’m going to go with Labrador and Border Collie with maybe some others mixed in, but breed ID in mixes is always hit or miss for me. He is awfully cute, whatever he is. I love his serious little expression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted December 14, 2022 Report Share Posted December 14, 2022 It is very common on Beagles. Rocky has one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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