what should I do?

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

Well, it finally happened. I went out of the house with Tucker, just to the back yard to get a couple of things.  No more than a couple of minutes. Someone pulled into my driveway without me knowing it, and was walking back to see me. Tucker took off for the guy and would not heed my calls. When he meant up with the guy he tried to jump up and bite him. Before I could get there he was circling the guy in a defensive mode with the guy kicking and yelling at him. He would not listen to me. I finally got a hold of Tucker and put him inside the house. When I got back over to the guy he had been bitten 2 times by Tucker. Both bite were hard and drew blood. I got the guy some peroxide and some paper towels for his wounds. He seemed to be pretty good about it but I feel a little scared now!

That brings me to my question? What should I do? Tucker is a great dog and companion around me, but I can't keep him under lock and key all the time. I live on 15 acres with know one around me for 1/2 mile either way. I am thinking he should be put down. I hate to even think of that but I do not know what else to do. This is a very sad day for myself and Tucker!

[Meghan]

I'm afraid i don't have any answers for you, not having much experience myself, but wanted to say I'm so sorry you're going through this and sending you a big hug xx

[maeflower]

I would try to find a certified dog behaviorist to help you. There are some that will work with you remotely if there aren't any close to you. I also would not let him run loose EVER until he has a rock solid recall. This is just what comes to mind for me. Good luck and sorry you have this issue to solve. 

[urge to herd]

Make sure your doors are closed tightly when you go out without him. When you do go out with him have him on leash All The Time. If there's a doggy door, put a solid cover over it for now.

PUT A LEASH ON HIM BEFORE YOU OPEN THE DOOR.  If he's not going with you, put him in a crate or a room with the door closed, so that he can't slip out.

I wouldn't ever let him run loose except in a contained area that you know is tight. You do need to find some specialized help for him. I know this is frightening for you. And putting him down is not necessary if you're willing to a) keep him safely contained and b) work with a specialist on his behavior.

It's hard to think of it this way, but try ~ would you rather spend money/effort on training him to accept restraint and being confined or spend money on a lawyer if he bites again and someone takes you to court? You don't say if you own the property where you live. You could be risking a lot.

Please don't give up on him until you've tried everything. He might be confused and unhappy at first with the changes, but it's his best chance at staying alive.

Ruth & Gibbs

 

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

14 minutes ago, urge to herd said:

Make sure your doors are closed tightly when you go out without him. When you do go out with him have him on leash All The Time. If there's a doggy door, put a solid cover over it for now.

PUT A LEASH ON HIM BEFORE YOU OPEN THE DOOR.  If he's not going with you, put him in a crate or a room with the door closed, so that he can't slip out.

I wouldn't ever let him run loose except in a contained area that you know is tight. You do need to find some specialized help for him. I know this is frightening for you. And putting him down is not necessary if you're willing to a) keep him safely contained and b) work with a specialist on his behavior.

It's hard to think of it this way, but try ~ would you rather spend money/effort on training him to accept restraint and being confined or spend money on a lawyer if he bites again and someone takes you to court? You don't say if you own the property where you live. You could be risking a lot.

Please don't give up on him until you've tried everything. He might be confused and unhappy at first with the changes, but it's his best chance at staying alive.

Ruth & Gibbs

 

Thank You Ruth! I always have a 6 ft leash on him when I go outside or for that matter in the house. We play frisbee while he is dragging it when outside. Never had a problem.  I have been working on his reactivity but apparently I am doing a lousy job. Tucker has never been out of my site even though I live in a remote area. I have always been very cautious with him as I have always known he may be aggressive to someone around me. Today I/we were taking by surprise unexpectedly. It is my fault as I let my guard down. Nether Tucker nor myself heard the guy drive in. Then all a sudden there he is. 

I am afraid now about the court thing. I have been uneasy all day waiting for the police to show up. I realize I could loose everything if that happens. I do own the property.

Believe me, I don't want to loose Tucker or have to put him down. I am 70 years old and live alone. I have no family. He is all I have. I just lost my other BC Taffy in June. That was really hard on me. I had Taffy for 15 years then one day she was gone! The vet had to put her down. Tucker is 3 years old and I got him as a pup. Despite all his reactive behaviors he has always been the most loving dog to me. I believe I will make an appointment with the vet and see if medication may help and/or he could recommend a behaviorist specialist for him. 

 

[urge to herd]

Seeing the vet sounds like a good thing. I had a bc, Shoshone, who was, well, quirky and definitely had some behavioral issues, especially around our cats. Talked the vet into giving her prozac, it didn't do anything. I asked him if there was any other medication to try and he suggested clomipramine which I think is an anti-anxiety med. It worked for her very nicely. That's another avenue to explore if you like.

Best of luck, I hope everything goes well from here on out.

Ruth & Gibbs

[Meghan]

I'd also recommend a 1:1 behaviourist who specialises in helping with these types of behaviours. Bailey's trainer has been wonderful at teaching US how to teach him and offering support. It's a difficult thing to try and do alone, and you want to make sure you're teaching him the right things the right way. I'd highly recommend looling for someone who focuses on positive reinforcement to avoid amping up any further aggression.

It might be a bit expensive, but it's worthwhile trying it, for both Tucker and for your peace of mind.

 

<3 

[Journey]

Fence. With drive through gate. Lock on Gate. Fence around the entire house with cross fence to divide front from rear. A gate on each fence line. Fence as much as you can actually..E-Collar training, with a pro. You yourself know you are beginning to (if not already) get out of your ability.

[Journey]

And 1 more caveat...I am not sure I can fault Tucker entirely for the bites. That said, yes, he should have called off, immediately. He didn't. I know the initial shock of the whole situation took you to dark places, however, the guy had free access to your land. Doesn't make him right or Tucker wrong.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

Contacted my vet today. They referred me to a Michelle Peacock a aggressive dog behaviorist. I have put a call into her. Anyone here ever heard of her? She is from somewhere around Clare, Michigan. I will be interested on what she has to say. I am not sure how to vet her? Maybe I could get some ideas here. I also fitted Tucker with a muzzle. He has been getting use to it today with know problems. I thought maybe I could take him some different places with people around as long as he is on a leash and wearing his muzzle.. Maybe places like Tractor Supply were there are both dogs and people. I hope this is a good idea as I need to get him socialize better. 

 

 

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

3 hours ago, Journey said:

Fence. With drive through gate. Lock on Gate. Fence around the entire house with cross fence to divide front from rear. A gate on each fence line. Fence as much as you can actually..E-Collar training, with a pro. You yourself know you are beginning to (if not already) get out of your ability.

Thanks Journey……Was that a polite way of saying I am an old man?  :>)

[nancy in AZ]

23 hours ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

 He seemed to be pretty good about it but I feel a little scared now!

That brings me to my question? What should I do? Tucker is a great dog and companion around me, but I can't keep him under lock and key all the time. I live on 15 acres with know one around me for 1/2 mile either way. I am thinking he should be put down. I hate to even think of that but I do not know what else to do. This is a very sad day for myself and Tucker!

I feel compelled to respond to your post because I have been in your shoes. My first thought when it happened to me was, This dog is a huge liability-- what if I lose my home and everything I've worked for due to a lawsuit. The dog (an adult aussie) did do damage; multiple bites on more than one occasion...mostly to the so-called "trainer" that was recommended to me by a vet who in turn had been recommended to me by my regular vet when I sought professional counsel. I felt entirely out of my depth and overwhelmed.  Ultimately, I initially found help from a renowned professional applied canine behaviorist.  She pointed me in the right direction, but because she had just taken a hiatus from her practice I couldn't take Boo to her.  I went to a veterinary behaviorist with whom I left my dog for a day for an assessment and obtained psychotropic meds along with a detailed program for counter-conditioning known as "Protocol for relaxation" by Dr. Karen Overall,  while we worked on behavior modification techniques. This is a long road and takes unwavering commitment. Most people w/jobs and families and other responsibilities are frankly not typically up to the task. I also recommend doing as much research as possible if you plan to continue on the path to work with Tucker, because not all the advice you get will be good or appropriate so the more you know, the more you can separate the wheat from the chaff.

I found an abandoned aussie in the National Forest and after he was turned over to AC  I continued to check to see if he'd been claimed. When he was still in the shelter after 10 days unclaimed, I decided to adopt and re-home him myself.  It became apparent early on that he was too aggressive to be reliably re-homed. He lived out his entire life with me and taught me more than any other dog I've ever had and as difficult as it was I wouldn't have changed that experience.  He was never fully reliable with strangers but I was able to manage him effectively.  He was reliable off-leash on trails and he was also the most biddable dog I've ever owned. I was able to call him off in mid-charge more than once.  I was offered the opportunity to have Cesar Milan work with him and declined (long story, maybe for another time).

I won't pretend to offer a solution but perhaps my story will help you determine what you can and can't or will and won't be willing to do to keep Tucker. First--you are no doubt still in a highly aroused state, as is Tucker, so take some time before you make any decisions to gather options and think them through.  As Journey wrote, the most immediate thing is manage your dog's environment.  No one is allowed on your property without your prior knowledge and permission. Your situation is a double edged sword in that you are isolated which means that Tucker's issue is only an issue rarely when someone else is present.  The other side of that is you have fewer opportunity to work with him on his triggering behaviors.  Second train an absolutely 100% reliable "flying lie down" or recall.  I don't have the time at the moment to relate my entire experience and what worked or what didn't with Boo just now. 

Feel free to PM me if you wish to pursue further and I can suggest some resources and my experience for what it's worth. Your mileage may vary.

Also, do a search on these boards for some of the older topic posts about aggressive dogs (there were many many very experienced handlers that frequented the boards back in the day--before FB lured them away to other social media some of them are still around somewhat but don't post as often) Sorry of this post is a bit disjointed-I really am a bit hurried here.

[Journey]

4 minutes ago, NW_MONTANA_BC said:

Thanks Journey……Was that a polite way of saying I am an old man?  :>)

Nah, that's not what I meant..he got away from you and didn't listen, out of your realm of training right there  

[jvw]

Brenda Aloff in Midland Michigan is excellent. 

[Bordercentrics]

I second the Brenda Aloff recommendation.  I attended a seminar she gave here many years ago, and her methods worked wonders with a dog I had then who was dog aggressive.  I was never positive about it, until a year later two dogs in the neighborhood got out that we had never seen before and charged us.  I instinctively did what Brenda had taught me and it worked!  My dog walked calmly home with me, even after all that excitement.  She was on a leash, but that wouldn't have helped if they'd attacked.

 

Kathy Robbins

[D'Elle]

Just coming in to say that I wish you  and Tucker all the best, and very much hope that you do not reach the point of thinking you need to put him down. I hope you find a way, with a good behaviorist, to help him get past this so you can have his companionship for years to come. And, to put in a plug for positive reinforcement behavior modification. In a case like this I would recommend staying away from anything like an e-collar (even if it is on vibrate) or any other aversive correction. I think there's a lot of evidence that using those methods more often than not do not work as well as positive reinforcement does.

[NW_MONTANA_BC]

On 9/16/2021 at 4:17 PM, nancy in AZ said:

 

Thanks everyone! I have put in calls to 2 behaviorist one of which was Brenda Aloff. I haven’t heard back from either one as of yet. I decided to try and help Tucker threw his anxiety, fear or resource guarding, or what ever it is that’s making him behave the way he is. I have had 2 other BC that just loved people and show no signs of this type of behavior so this is kind of shocking to me. I will be heading to my winter home in Arizona shortly so I will be looking for help down there also. I appreciate the hugs and well wishes. Thanks so much!

[nancy in AZ]

This is one of the older threads I was looking for. Check out this thread that has been pinned under FAQs heading

 

[Mana19]

If your dog is this reactive it needs to be trained more. I would revoke any freedom of a leash at this point. It is certainly preferable than killing the dog! Take it to a kennel or seek adoption with someone who can handle and train it out.

[Laura Vishoot]

I had a dog that bit a person in the face (unfortunately for both of them,  they leaned over to kiss the dog and dog was not in favor).  My dog was on a 4 foot leash.  I always had her on leash when people were around because she'd growled and showed teeth to people, and bit a running person in the past.   I was completely unprepared for the person's move.  They had ultimately I think 3 plastic surgery procedures and came close to losing an eye.  

Because she was taken to the ER, the bite was reported to the sheriff's department.  It's required for medical people to report dog bites.  The sheriff came to my home.  Interestingly, they told me that neither my dog or I were in trouble.  I had done my due diligence by having the dog on a leash.  She was a working dog, we were on private property at a sheepdog trial.  I did have to quarantine the dog for a period in case of rabies.

The bite victim did not sue me, but I lost my homeowner's insurance.  It was extremely difficult to find another company that would sell me a policy and when I  found one, the cost was exorbitant. 

 After much painful deliberation, I chose to have my dog euthanized.  She was very young, but I do travel and there would be times that I would need to leave her in the care of someone else.  She had many years ahead that would require extreme management and I felt that the chances for another incident were fairly high.  

Incidentally, this dog had one litter of puppies before any of these situations occurred.  I kept one and when he was 3 rehomed him as a pet, because he wasn't very keen on working.  The couple loved him very much.  When he was about 5 he bit a person who was dancing in the room.  A couple of other incidents that were possible to dismiss as "border collie behavior" until, when he was 7, he ended up biting his owner in the face to the point where the person's nose was broken.  He was euthanized after that.

Clearly there was a genetic component to this serious temperament issue that she passed on, though I also had her littermate.  That dog was a saint her entire life.