Views of Fetch

[drharps]

So I posted on another thread about needing a good ball recommendation, and it elicited a number of views on the issues with fetch as an activity. It got me to doing some research and looking more into the issue. What do people think of the activity? Is it good, but only when limited to 30 minutes a day? Is it good, but best when it's on a schedule so the dog knows, for instance, fetch happens in the morning and that's it? Is it something that is a great exercise for the dog so do it when and where you can? 

Some of the studies I found indicated it can lead to a nervous, anxious, and reactive dog because they essentially become a junkie and it affects their brain activity when they aren't playing. Other trainers/vets I've read say it's a natural and great activity for dogs.

Would love to hear what people think because fetch is one of those things I've considered as 'dog-like' as the name fido and love of bones. 

[puppytoes]

In my experience, it depends on the dog. My last two border collies showed a really strong interest in ball chasing when very young, such a strong interest that it felt unhealthy to me, almost like they couldn't control themselves they were so excited. So we just didn't do it.

My older guy is 13 now and we did introduce some fetching when he showed that he could still listen when there was a ball around, at about 2-3 years. And then it was maybe a few times a week for 10 minutes when I needed him to go pee and stretch his legs, not in place of actual mindful activity.

My current pup in not yet one and also fixated on Chuck it's and balls (other people's because he's too young to chase balls), so we'll wait with him too.

I'm not opposed to fetch as long as it is one type of activity and not the only one. I think most dogs can probably handle a bit of fetch without going ocd but it is important that the handler recognizes when the dog has had enough physically and psychologically. I also think it's more of an issue for those of us that live in the city: not every outing can be off leash in the forest so you're always trying to maintain a balance.

[Michael Parkey]

Referring to your other thread about balls, apparently this is a much more controversial subject than I ever imagined.

Some dogs love fetch, others can't be bothered.  Currently we have one of each.  Levi is the border collie, and he loves fetch, but only with a ball.  Frisbees or other toys simply won't do--throw one of those and the game immediately becomes keep away.

We play many different versions of fetch.  The simplest is human throws ball, dog brings ball, repeat.  But this gets old after a while.  One of Levi's favorite alternates is fetch played during a long walk.  The human keeps moving, either throwing the ball ahead or behind and Levi has to figure out which way to run.  This evolved into field fetch, played in a meadow with tall grass.  Levi follows a moving ball by sight and sound, but when it drops out of sight and hearing into the grass, the game becomes nose work.  Jungle fetch is similar, but played in wooded terrain where the search is much more difficult.  Levi will continue searching for as much as 15 or 20 minutes, with help from voice and gesture directions from me, if I even know where the ball is.

Then there is water fetch, with either a floating or sinking ball.  Fortunately there is a wonderful creek near our house with gravel beaches and deep pools for swimming after a floating ball.  Sinking ball fetch is the most difficult.  In good conditions (clear water, gravel bottom) Levi has to find a non-moving ball on the bottom that he can't smell just by shape and color alone.

Of course Levi has lots of other games too.  He loves to hike and run with me when I ride my bicycle.  He "finds" objects, people, or other dogs when asked to do so:  "find Buddy" (our other dog),  "find blue ring", "find Bruce".  He also keeps vermin out of the yard, and we are working on "put the ducks away" but that is a hard one.  Levi is too enthusiastic and the ducks are pretty flaky.

[Flora & Molly]

I have a dog that borders on obsessive about balls. With other dogs around I enjoy playing fetch with her more, because then they are actually playing: they steal the ball from each other and run around chasing each other.

When I am alone with her she can get a bit too intense for my taste and she fries her brain pretty quickly. So standard fetch of human throws ball, dog brings it back is something I can only do for three throws. After that she gets too intense/frantic. It’s difficult to describe, but she won’t be able to listen to anything I ask of her. A bomb could go off and she would keep her focus - but won’t be able to comply with the rules of the game (give the ball in hand).

I’m slowly working on getting her to relax a little around a ball or at the very least be able to work for the ball, which is a lot more fun. I keep sessions short, no more than five throws, and always ask her to do something before I throw (mostly heel at the moment). 
 

When I work with dummies she doesn’t have the same intensity. I think it could’ve been handled better as a pup, but she wasn’t my dog then. I have noticed too that when we play ball in the water we can go on for much longer, I think because it’s more challenging to get the ball, plus she takes breaks to drink water - which she will never do even when given the opportunity on land. 
 

I play a lot of search games with balls instead of always throwing it, because then she can keep the right level of intensity. She is great at sniffing out tennis balls. There’s a large field with tall grass in my neighbourhood and I usually hide around six balls for her to find. She is very very quick to sniff them out. Sometimes I go to the tennis club and search for lost tennis balls outside of the fence. Super fun game, within a minute she usually finds a ball out of nowhere.

Once on a walk I met a mother and son with a daschhund who lost their ball in the undergrowth. Their dog didn’t know or wasn’t interested to search for the ball. So I told Molly to find it. The mother thought she wouldn’t know what to look for, but Molly’s ball obsession can come in handy! She knows I mean a ball when I haven’t got the object on me to show her. Very proud moment and Molly got a well deserved treat from the boy who was very happy he could play fetch with his dog again.

So for me playing fetch is a bit mixed. Sometimes I love playing it, but I always have to be careful not to overdo it, which can happen super quickly.

One of my friends used to walk Molly while I worked, but I eventually had to cancel her because she didn’t listen to my fetch instructions (bring out the ball when she’s uncomfortable with another dog to distract her - throw once or twice when the dog is gone). She would hike in the woods here and play fetch almost the entire walk, about an hour long, with some five minute breaks in between, sure. The result was that Molly didn’t want to sniff on her walks with me anymore even though I didn’t bring a ball. She sent me this picture and maybe I can only see it because it’s my dog, but that look in her eye is not good 

[Journey]

@drharps I want to say kudos to you for not only asking but researching this as well!

 

Plain simple fetch , I think people know my take on it..so I agree - it is as dog like as Spot and good bones! You've found some answers in your research, look at the soft palate trouble that a stick can cause as well. 

 

My dogs know how to fetch an object, they also know they are not allowed to retrieve said object until I say their name or direct them to which one. They happily carry hollee rollers in the yard, better that in ones mouth than another dog! I live on a farm, with stock, so I can understand, to an extent, issues folks have living in a city or neighborhood. The game is *your rules* not theirs. Mine pretty well know that if they ask me to toss something it is going over at least 2 pasture fences and won't be seen again till I happen to pick it up while out there, they've discovered they'd rather keep it in their mouth..Fetch has the "potential" to turn on you and the dog if you're not vigilante about "your" rules. Even then, once obsessed it's a hard nasty road to undo, if it's even possible. Know your dog, know the line that can't be crossed and have fun!

[Michael Parkey]

How many dogs are truly obsessed with fetch?  By obsessed I mean to the point of being a significant behavior problem for the owner or a health problem for the dog?  In my entire life (68 years) I have seen only one.  All of our concern about fetch may be a solution in search of a problem.

[Journey]

1 hour ago, Michael Parkey said:

How many dogs are truly obsessed with fetch?  By obsessed I mean to the point of being a significant behavior problem for the owner or a health problem for the dog?  In my entire life (68 years) I have seen only one.  All of our concern about fetch may be a solution in search of a problem.

More than should be. Just because you've not had an issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As drharps said in the OP, she researched it and came away with more than "it's not a issue". By the time it becomes a health problem you've crossed that line far to far to go back. How many people would talk about the problem they caused..do to lack of info or lack of knowledge? How many dogs have virtually no teeth at 12 from due to 11.5 years of fetch? How many soft palets were damaged by sticks due to fetch? How many arthritic issues are there due to fetch? How many dog fights were caused due to fetch? How many other injuries to the body were due to fetch? They don't even necessarily need to be "obsessed" to do damage. 

[Michael Parkey]

Every problem you attribute to fetch could have multiple other causes, including stock work.

[Journey]

4 hours ago, Michael Parkey said:

Every problem you attribute to fetch could have multiple other causes, including stock work.

Yep, I've never had any of those issues though, so trying to attribute it to stock is simply deflection of the conversation to fit your expectations. Nothing is guaranteed safe, these dogs we're bred to work though, and a by product of their breeding,  biddability and athleticism, makes them a pretty good jack of all trades, many do have a self awareness radar, a lot don't... That doesn't mean irresponsible behavior due to lack of knowledge or proper oversight is acceptable. Be responsible,  know what you're getting into and setting your dog up for.. Go have fun with your dog, that's what matters. 

[Michael Parkey]

Look at this from the standpoint of risk assessment. If we list all the possible ways dogs can come to harm in order of frequency, where would playing fetch rank?  Top ten?  Top one hundred?  Top one thousand?  The risks from playing fetch are extremely low, and easy to prevent.

[D'Elle]

All dogs are different, and how the game is handled makes a huge difference as well. My experience is that if the fetch toy...ball or frisbie or stuffy....is something the owner strictly controls, if the fetch is not more than one of many activities the dog gets to do on a regular basis, if the ground surface and temperature and other such safety things are considered, and the owner is the sole decision maker as to when, with what, where and for how long the game is played,  it's great.

I have not had a dog obsess about it to the point of it being a problem. Jester was the one who loved it the most among border collies, and was what I  at the time called "obsessed" with it, but that wasn't really the right term to use because it was not a problem for him or for me. He knew that until I told him to go get the throw toy it would do no good to bring it to me. He also knew that when I said "last one" there would be no more throws no matter what and he accepted that and stopped expecting it for that day.  Of course, I never threw a stick and he knew not to bring them to me.

My childhood dog was also a fetching dog, and the same thing was true with him. 

I think it needs to be managed properly. And I think it's not the right thing for some dogs who are prone to obsession to the point of not being able to think about anything else. 

.But given the right dog and management I think it is wonderful because even on the days when I am not able to go out and do a lot of activity with the dog because I am ill or the weather is terrible I can always throw a soft toy in the house. With Jester, he didn't care whether the toy was thrown indoors or out, didn't care if it went 3 feet or 30 feet, he just liked to bring it back. It made him joyful and that made me happy too.

I think the risks, apart from obsession in a dog for whom that could happen, mostly are about injury. That can be managed by paying attention to the surface and so on as I said above. If it is frisbie there's the danger of leaping and landing wrong. But a lot of other activities such as agility can be dangerous in that way as well. One of the dogs I have now tore his knee ligament landing wrong from a jump through my arms that was only 15" off the floor. 

Anything can be risky. Doing a whole lot of high leaping is not a good idea, though, so I didn't always use the frisbie because the ball goes too fast for the dog to get out ahead to catch it in mid-air. Or, I would sometimes ask Jes to sit and wait when I threw it and then let him go to find it.

 

 

[Journey]

9 hours ago, Michael Parkey said:

Look at this from the standpoint of risk assessment. If we list all the possible ways dogs can come to harm in order of frequency, where would playing fetch rank?  Top ten?  Top one hundred?  Top one thousand?  The risks from playing fetch are extremely low, and easy to prevent.

I suppose it doesn't matter when it's your dog at the vet. You're right, fetch is a fabulous game, time to exit the mud...

[Nuance]

Fetch is very important to us (me and the dog).

It does many things, as a 8 to 12 week old puppy they chase and attack it, building dexterity and confidence as well as physical stimulation.

Outdoors it is an effect training tool, my dogs learn, find it (scent training). They learn direction left ,right, to me and away. They learn patience , leave it , drop it , to me . It give my dogs a braking system and a check in. Fetch manifests into a lot of things that are important to us as a team.

The most important thing for us is it expands our communication. Verbal and non verbal (hand signals)

I throw orange balls in the ocean for swimming, sticks into forest for scenting, frisbees/large balls in open fields.

 

This being said there are things that are important to know.

I don't use a throwing stick it removes scent and sound from the interaction . Stopping (they skid) and starting(they lunge) is were most damage is done chasing a ball. Frisbees are thrown low to prevent the dogs from jumping. I limit the type of throwing(distance, direction).

Fetch is a tool that i rely on to grow my relationships with my dogs.

 

 

[Michael Parkey]

Well said!

[alligande]

I have a fetch obsessed dog. He will play till he drops, it is something we have always controlled as he loses focus on anything else. He is a dog at home that will endlessly hurl a toy at us, or drop it at our feet and stare with a laser focus at the toy, we do our best not to engage but sometimes its hard to resist. We do play with him but have always limited how many throws he gets, so we don't get the zombie look.

We hardly ever play on walks or at least not until the end, without a toy he explores and sniffs, checks the world out, if there is a toy then its just about the toy.  When we are in the UK people think I am mean not having a toy as he is one of those attempting to steal others toys, but he is clearly a better dog without the toy.

My other border collie doesn't care about playing fetch, nor have any of my previous ones been obsessed, but they have enjoyed a game, its so much about the individual.

 

[Mark Billadeau]

On 5/8/2021 at 8:53 AM, Michael Parkey said:

Look at this from the standpoint of risk assessment. If we list all the possible ways dogs can come to harm in order of frequency, where would playing fetch rank?  Top ten?  Top one hundred?  Top one thousand?  The risks from playing fetch are extremely low, and easy to prevent.

Depends on the dog!
 

Our first loved fetch.  He was so driven to fetch he impaled himself on a bush branch diving into the bushes to get the ball.  He kept playing fetch (no signs of pain) until we noticed the hole in his back.  He also cut open his front leg (we guess on broken glass in the bushes) and didn’t stop until we saw the blood.  His drive was present working stock or any other activity; pain would not dampen his drive.  It fell upon us to protect him from his drive.

Some of our dogs have been careful to protect their bodies playing or working stock; while others were driven enough to require us to moderate their drive in risky situations.  The risks of injury were less about the activity and more about the personality of the dog.