Age to start Herding/Agility/Flyball

[INU]

I've been told that dogs should be at least 1/5 -2 years old to do agility because of their bones and mentality. Same goes to the Flyball?

 

What about Herding? If the pup was born in the farm and the parents are working on stock, How long do you wait till you introuduce the dog to the stock?

 

If my pup was never introuduced to stock till she is, say 6 or 7 years old but only did agility and flyball, then I decided to do Herding with her, would she lose her instinct and her natural ability? Also, do they make better stock dogs if they start at early age? Realistically, I can't get into Herding seriously for a while.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by INU:

I've been told that dogs should be at least 1/5 -2 years old to do agility because of their bones and mentality. Same goes to the Flyball?

Not exactly. We start training our dogs in agility at about a year, with very low impact jumps (6 inches) and lowered obstacles. They can begin competing at 18 months in Canada, but I don't compete with mine until they are 2 years old. In Canada, dogs can run flyball at a year old, but I think that's too young and I won't compete with a dog under 2 years.

 

If my pup was never introuduced to stock till she is, say 6 or 7 years old but only did agility and flyball, then I decided to do Herding with her, would she lose her instinct and her natural ability? Also, do they make better stock dogs if they start at early age? Realistically, I can't get into Herding seriously for a while.

Well, you obviously don't want to train your dog on stock to compete with her in trials, or to work your sheep, so it really doesn't matter when you start. If you're just doing it for fun, you can start your dog whenever. Obviously a dog started at a younger age (I've started mine at 6 months) will have more potential and more chance to develop her skills, this becoming a much more accomplished dog. My 7 year old, who I started on stock when he was 5, will never make a good stockdog. It's not that he's "lost his instinct," it's just that he would have had more opportunity to develop skills when he was younger. He likes it though, so we go every weekend so he can have his fun, but my youngest is the most serious prospect (although, not so much with me as her handler, given my poor shepherding skills).

 

RDM

[Pipedream Farm]

"What about Herding? If the pup was born in the farm and the parents are working on stock, How long do you wait till you introduce the dog to the stock?"

 

I'll try to answer this, but my answer comes from my limited experience starting dogs.

 

I personally want to all my pups to be physically developed enough to minimize risks from injuries. We took our pups to sheep for the first time when they were about 9 months old. This introduction is just to get them "turned on" and possibly going around sheep. At this time we evaluate the mental maturity of the pup to determine if it is ready for the mental stress of training. Our pups were not ready; incidentally the mother wasn't ready till she was close to 1.5 years old. Sometime by 1.5 years old they should be mentally ready for serious training, some are ready earlier while others are not.

 

I've heard a rule of thumb that says it takes about 4 years for a dog to gain enough experience to be a highly competitive open level dog; obviously some handlers have the ability to give the dogs this experience faster. Generally older dogs can learn faster (better able to handle the mental stresses) than younger dogs; however, the older dogs still need the years of experience and old age catches up with them leaving fewer years after basic training (outwork, driving, penning, & shedding).

 

Since I'm not doing a good job putting my thoughts into a coherent answer to your question, I'll stop here. Perhaps someone else can give a better answer; of course Sam will disagree with my opinion of when a pup is ready for training. She likes them young. :eek:

 

Mark

[Shoofly]

I'll give the stock answer to this question -- it depends on the dog. Some dogs are okay younger, some it's better to wait. My Jet was one of the latter. She turned on and was beautiful to watch her first time on the stock at 4 months old. I'd put her on every month or so and she was easy and natural. BUT, she really wasn't ready to train until she was about 1.5 years old. And when she was ready, it was a piece of cake because she was really ready. I could have trained her earlier, but why beat my head against the wall and maybe put some bad habits into her. Physically speaking, myself i prefer to wait until the dogs are 8 months to 10 months old. From what i understand, the growth plates in the bones are pretty much not closed until 10 months, so i prefer to take it easier on the pup. That said, occasional exposures and light work aren't going to hurt a pup. Jet was put on stock every month or so from 4 months of age on, and sometimes more often that that. But it was easy fun stuff. I put all of my pups on for the first time at 4-5 months old, just to see what i've got.

 

And Mark, now you know Sam will argue with you that it's easier to get that grip command settled in a pup's head while it's still on its mom!!

[cgt]

I've only started two pups on livestock, one male, one female. Hardly a statistically significant sample, I know, but... The male was several months older than the female before he was ready for training. I've heard that males mature more slowly (and not just dogs!). Do people find that males generally are later starters than females? (Even if this rule is valid, I'm sure there are lots of exceptions.)

 

charlie torre

[tucknjill]

Ya know, I really really dont know how I come by this reputation. Just because Todd lost all his baby teeth chewing on a goat...I mean really, just a coincidence.

 

In answer to the original post (since I have been accused of always taking things slightly off topic...uhemmmmm MARK) I did start a rescue dog that I was training for someone, cant remember if she was 3 or 4 but I trained her up thru open...so my opinion, if they have it they have it no matter the age. On the other hand I have a uhhhhhhhhh slightly younger version here who Just might have a slight outrun and ummmmm might just drive and shed a bit! And also, I dont hear ANY kudos for how long I waited to train Buff, he is positively ANCIENT.

[tucknjill]

Oh and Charlie, Statistically speaking the males do seem to take a bit longer, though I think my Tucker was an exception...though he was my only dog at the time which makes a HUGE difference. Todd at 2.5 years is only now developing half a brain and I was running his sister in open before she was two..I think he is the nicer dog, but has just taken longer to get down to work.

 

SEEEE MARK ON TOPIC!

[Barb Scott]

We've started all of our agility dogs as young puppies: tunnels, contact obstacles, elbow height jumps (or just going between the jump standards with no poles); the only obstacle we wait on is the weave poles.

Barb Scott

[concrete]

I've got a pup here that's circling my chair while I type that just turned 4 months. I took him in with some 10 month old lambs today and he tucked his tail in and started moving sheep. I won't try to train him just yet but I'll let him mess around a bit now every couple of weeks. He seems very mature and serious about his work already and I think thats a good sign. I do carry a stick with me and I'm ready to back a young dog up the minute he might need some help.

As far as starting older dogs I've got a 4 year old here that I'm training for some one else. I was a little frustrated at first because if she wasn't allowed to do what she wanted she would just find a way out of the field and take off. Not that we are over that I'm really enjoying training her. She is really picking things up much quicker than a young dog and I can work her longer and more often then a young dog.

 

Kevin Brannon

[kaos]

I brought Kaos to sheep when she was five years old.

 

She has always had a really neat crouch and slow walk up, a steely gaze and a seeming need to control situations. She learned voice commands for circle left and right and run back ... farther back etc. So we always wondered (as all completely ignorant newbies do) if our girl might be able to wrap her head around herding (in a hobby form only as we are unfortunately very citified)

 

She didn't really notice the sheep, certainly didn't turn on and while in the pen was more interested in chasing shadows on the ground and goofing off (exhibiting some of the idiotic tendencies that she has come up with to compensate for lack of mental stimulation in earlier life that was allowed to take hold!). She actually started to show some interest in the last ten minutes of the audition (as we like to call it!)

 

The moral of the story you may ask????

I figure that all the years of taking her dog parks and teaching "NO> NO CHASING THOSE ANIMALS" and that she should always look to me for all guidance and direction have completely hampered any natural impulses and instincts she may have had. So you can see that the training we instill in the dogs will vastly influence their potential. The very thing I discouraged in her (thinking for herself etc) was the very thing she needed most.

 

Now in hindsight and with an eye to the future, I have been told by some people that one time around sheep wasn't a fair trial of our wee beastie and that some dogs take a few trys to turn on. And in view of this I will be attempting to do a few lessons with her, I don't mind spending the money but we will always be hampered by my severe inadequacies (complete lack of understanding and know how!!!)I will be the one receiving most of the training which will hopefully free her up from the constraints I have placed on her.

 

With all that said though we are awaiting the birth of our second beautiful child and the dogs as usual will be bumped to last on the list for awhile, so all of this is mere speculation at this point.

Sara (just my ignorant two cents but something taht bears thinking about)

[Tassie]

My guys had their first introduction to agility (with very low jumps) at 9 and 7 months, but then nothing other than obedience and running around until they were about 16 and 14 months, when we went to another agility workshop. I don?t have access to a really good trainer here, so I?m still holding back on agility, but in the meantime, I?ve been teaching them to jump safely using Suzanne Clothier?s Natural Jumping Method. I figure if they know how to jump safely and efficiently, they?ll be safer when/if we get to do agility ? and in the meantime, they?re having fun. We?ve just (at 22 and 20 months) started flyball training, so the chute jumping has really paid off there.

 

As far as maturity goes, I think it depends quite a bit on the individual dog. Fergus is going to be a slow maturer physically (probably 3 or 4), and maybe his brain might come with physical maturity ? well not his brain so much as his concentration ? he has the attention span of a gnat at present.

 

I?m a believer in letting their musculo-skeletal structure settle down before doing anything too seriously physical with them (that is, when you?re calling the shots ? not the madness they do by themselves). After all, you want them sound and active for a long time ? my previous boy was still competing in obedience and having fun in agility and jumpers at 12 and a half. Have a look on Kim?s Black Dog Farm site http://www.geocities.com/black_dog_farm/BCLinks.html and/or do a search on puppy agility to get some info and ideas.

 

My guys are going to have their first chance to try herding next week. It?ll be really interesting to see if they have anything that?s worth working on. It?ll only ever be for fun, but I?m looking forward to trying ? although not with any great expectations. I?ve got a horrible feeling that Fergus will either not be interested in stock, or he?ll just go completely silly, and that Kirra could cause a wreck in her first lesson. Wish us luck.

 

P.S. Good luck with your new arrival Sara.

[Pam Wolf]

In answer to the question about herding dogs starting late. I've seen alot of older dogs tried over the years. Some dogs when exposed while young are very keen, yet when exposed later just don't seem interested. Others never having seen sheep will turn on instantly even as old as 10 or 12 years.

 

But the training for GOOD stock work does take years and at some point you have to decide if the dog will live long enough to get trained and is it worth it?

 

Pam

[StillTerry]

FINALLY, we get to talk about working dogs.

 

I have a couple theories about the age of starting dogs on sheep. You all (practicing for my Virginia visits) jump in and add your two cents.

 

Generally, (and yes there are always your individual exceptions) but I do not think that it is the best interest of the dog for a novice handler to run it in the nurseries trying to qualify it for the finals. They invariably put too much pressure on the dog. Even fairly good handlers have been known to "burn out" a nursery dog.

 

I can only think of a couple of nursery finals winners that went on and became great open dogs.

The handler that quickly comes to mind that does not burn out his nursery dogs is Tommy Wilson so lets not use his dogs as examples because they are the exceptions.

 

Lets debate this.

 

I think that it would also make sense that green handlers should err on the side of caution and not try to start their dogs as young. Basically, because they are not as keyed in to when they put too much pressure or just have bad timing that can screw the dog's mind and then the dog's confidence.

 

Remember I'm an old lady and my memory often is impaired with senior moments. Also you know that I have not started my own dogs as I am not the most agile handler around. Besides, do you think that I could get a dog solid on his flanks?But damn, I know my dogs are solid and still confident.......if they are still taking the right flanks after I've ran them for awhile.

 

By the way, Robin, I also agree that the training depends on the dog. Besides, the generality of males maturing slower, there are also certain lines that mature slower.

 

As previously stated, I don't start my own dogs.

But the trainers that I have the most confidence in, tell me that they do not want to start the dogs really young. If they get a dog at say 14 to 16 months they can get that dog to the same stage in a couple of months. Whereas, if they started the same dog at say 9 months, at 16 months-18 months the dog would still be at the same stage in training but have had 6 months versus 2 months of training. I am not sure that I explained that well.

 

These are just my late night ramblins. I have cabin fever. It is too cold for man nor beast to be outside for the last 4-5 days.

[blackacre]

Originally posted by StillTerry:

Generally, (and yes there are always your individual exceptions) but I do not think that it is the best interest of the dog for a novice handler to run it in the nurseries trying to qualify it for the finals. They invariably put too much pressure on the dog. Even fairly good handlers have been known to "burn out" a nursery dog.

Well, I did it with my first dog (qualified him too) and he's still running Open today. Two reasons: one, I'd raised him from a pup and "he'd learned to adjust", to quote one of my sternest critics; and two, while I did put tremendous pressure on him, I WAS a novice and didn't do it very effectively, so he more or less did his own thing anyway. Fortunately, he had enough natural talent that his own thing tended to be the right thing and carried us through.

It's actually the professional handlers that can burn out a Nursery dog since they're damn good at putting the pressure on.

As to starting a dog young, I, like Sam, am an obsesso compulso and can't wait. I will grant you though that it doesn't result in a dog that I can trial any earlier and that the little bugger would be at the same stage if I had started later (yes Jaffe, we're talking about you.) Months of training starting at an early age can be matched by a month or two starting at 18 months, which many of our mentors prefer, since they have so many damn dogs they don't have time to do anything else anyway.

HOWEVER, I do very strongly believe that if you leave a dog too long or try to start one at 3-4 years of age or older, you have missed a window of opportunity and will never get to the same point with that dog, and not just because it only has "x" number of working years left. The instinct just gets buried and dulled. The dog may want to work sheep but just doesn't have the mental flexibility to develop the way a younger dog would.

Barb, you MUST report back in full about your initial herding exposure. I am terribly curious to hear how it's done in Australia.

PS ironic that we finally get to talk about working dogs on the Obedience and Agility segment of the Boards. Sigh.

A.

[Pipedream Farm]

"HOWEVER, I do very strongly believe that if you leave a dog too long or try to start one at 3-4 years of age or older, you have missed a window of opportunity and will never get to the same point with that dog, and not just because it only has "x" number of working years left."

 

 

Andrea, I agree with you on this I just didn't think to add it to my babbling above.

 

Mark

[blackacre]

>>>I've got a pup here that's circling my chair while I type that just turned 4 months . . . He seems very mature and serious about his work already and I think thats a good sign.

 

Don't get too excited Kevin. Jaffe the Monster Dog, now 14 months and pretty well totally mindless, started the same way at 4 months. Gosh, I said, look how thoughtful that pup is.

A.

[concrete]

Don't get too excited Kevin. Jaffe the Monster Dog, now 14 months and pretty well totally mindless, started the same way at 4 months. Gosh, I said, look how thoughtful that pup is.

A.

I don't know, at this point he looks like a future national champ to me.

 

Kevin

[StillTerry]

Mark and A,

 

I didn't mean to wait until they were 3 or 4. Yes, I think that you do miss a window of opportunity if you wait too long. It is a fine line.

 

Since I don't practice what I preach, going out today and work on the double lift with Mickey Maniac (he is now 10 weeks old )

[blackacre]

Hi Kevin,

I have to laugh at myself on this one. Having gone through a series of trained and partially trained dogs in the intervening years, I was pretty sure I knew what I wanted for my next puppy. Liked the parents, both top 10 in the nation in the standings in their time. Liked the get I saw trialing. Heard good reports on their naturalness and trainability. Ended up with The Mindless One. Meanwhile, my impulse buy, the Kelpie (same age), out of lines and of a breed I knew nothing about, is about ready for pro-novice. Ha ha ha.. Joke's on me. I'm not giving up yet though. He actually stayed behind his sheep for the first time last weekend. Not well or anything, but it felt like a huge breakthrough to me. Oh, how our expectations can be brought low.

A.

[Pipedream Farm]

Terry,

 

no condemnations only observations and opinions. It's too cold here for me to get feisty. Well actually it?s not the temperature that?s tough, it's the shock of going from 60s last weekend (and short sleeves) to below freezing this week.

 

Mark

[blackacre]

Terry,

Well, I can hardly blame you, since his look back is now so good. His littermate, on the other hand, persists in going back on the wrong side, so I guess Micky D's one up on poor little Morse.

You'll be running against Kevin at the next Nationals, so better get a move on and sort out his International shedding work.

A.

[tucknjill]

Oh dont you worry Andrea, Terry will beat him hands down at the pen..I hear she is having a clinic afterwards and Jonny W. is top on the list to get in....heheheheheh

[tucknjill]

Damnit, you made me go off topic again and Mark is going to YELLLLLL AT ME! Stop it!

[blackacre]

Actually, Johnny is apparently flying her over to the UK for some private lessons on this so that he does not have to flaunt his ignorance in front of an audience.

Look out Kevin, this girl knows everything there is to know about penning.

A.

[tucknjill]

I actually heard that Terry was going to do a penning seminar in conjunction with this years shedding clinics..you know a guest appearance. I have signed up for all three!!!