MommaLove Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Juno's ABCA papers have her as black & white, and that's what we thought she was, too. However, as her adult coat is coming in, we've discovered a little tuft of fur on the inside of each thigh (right along the edge of the hairline) that is red/brown. She also has a few stray brown hairs hidden amongst the black on the "feathers" down the back of her hind legs. Does this mean she is actually a tri? I'm so fascinated by coat and colouring! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 No it doesn't. Many black dogs have bleached out/faded reddish brown portions and in their coats. It has nothing to do with the tan points in a tri colour. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Somebody refresh my memory...what's that about you can always tell a tri by lifting up their tail? They'll always have a tan/brown/cream area there? **I'm just sayin' now how stupid I will feel if I've got that totally wrong** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Yes most tris have tan/cream around their anus. However I have seen what I thought was a black and white get tan points at around 3; I never looked back there on her as a puppy though! Our red/white had some lightish patches on his rear legs. Just coloration I think cynthia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MommaLove Posted September 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 No it doesn't. Many black dogs have bleached out/faded reddish brown portions and in their coats. It has nothing to do with the tan points in a tri colour. RDM So, do the tan points need to appear in certain places for the dog to be considered a tri? The spots I'm talking about on the inside of Juno's thighs aren't bleached out or faded, they have just appeared recently amidst white fur as her adult coat is growing in. It's not black fur that's been sun-bleached, it's very red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamS Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Could you take a picture? That would be easier than just trying to tell coat color from descriptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Tri colours are not black, white and *red* - they are black, white and TAN. Tan and red are not at all similar, nor are they the same genetically. Genetically, I believe, black masks other colours, like red. Some black dogs have a richer coat colour than others, and some are prone to fading, or having a reddish tint in some places. The vast majority of tri colour dogs have tan dots on their bum, by their anus, even if they express very little tri / tan on their points. My black and white has reddish patches in her coat; my tri colour has brindle tan points. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Are you talking about ticking and your dog is actually a tri with very little tan? The amount of ticking (colored spots within white fur) can increase as a dog ages. Tris can get black and tan ticking; B&Ws only get black ticking. Below are images linked from the BC Museum. B&W with black ticking Tri with black and tan ticking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 All dogs have black and red pigment. The black masks the red. Red dogs are red because they don't have the black pigment to mask the red. Black dogs can turn red in spots, like behind the ears, if the black pigment fades, leaving the red pigment to show through. If your dog is showing brown/red hairs in the white, I'd say that she's got some sort of ticking going on, not tricolor. As others have noted, tris always have cream/tan under their tails, even if they don't manifest tri points elsewhere. My Twist (b&w, ticked)had a small (just a few hairs) red patch on one shoulder. That didn't make her a tri. It probably means that the cells from which those hairs grew had some funky pigment thing going on (as in for some reason the normal black pigment wasn't produced in those few hairs). As someone else suggested, it would be easier to understand what you're talking about with a good photo to illustrate. FWIW, the hair behind Phoebe's ears has recently turned quite red--strikingly so in the sunlight. It's because the black has faded out. The red itself does not appear faded, if that makes sense. She looks like she has these purplish red patches behind her ears--it's a very pretty color actually. But it's there only because the black pigment as faded. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 All dogs have black and red pigment. The black masks the red. Red dogs are red because they don't have the black pigment to mask the red. This statement seems a bit contradictory...? Edit; thinking about this, did you mean "all black dogs have black and red pigment"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 I wonder about this whole tan vs red thing. It may be that the gene that is responsible for the tan areas on a tricolor's coat is called the tan gene, but it seems to me that it expresses itself in a way that the layperson could easily see as red. This is particularly true in the Bernese Mountain Dog and (often) the Australian Shepherd, whereas the tricolor Rough Collies I've seen had markings that were more of a tan color. These variations may be produced by a "tan" rather than a "red" gene, but for those of us who aren't color-genetics whizzes, it sure looks red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 The deal with 'red' in dogs is that red is not defined across breeds. What is called 'red' in border collies is actually liver in most other breeds. It's a recessive from the B series. Red as it is in coat color genetics is ee red, like an australian red. Then tan points are actually a different gene. So yes, it gets confusing when people say 'red'. Because red is often referring to so many things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 I believe that the copper "points" in many breeds are produced at the A locus and are a^t/a^t, but can be affected by at least one other allele (and perhaps more of which I am not aware), and the a^t to express these 'points' is recessive. So for example a dog with a^t/a^t will be pointed if other alleles do not mask it. One that I know will mask it is at the K locus, so that a dog that is K/k a^t/a^t will not express the points (Kk having masked them), but a dog that is a^t/a^t k/k will, barring any other masking alleles of which I am not aware. I use a^t because the "t" should be a superscript. So, with all of that out of the way, I wonder if the tan 'points' on a black tri Border Collie are similarly produced? P.S. You guys have me doing the oddest things since I've started reading this board. I've been caught looking at the roof of my dog's mouth (it's black with a few tiny splashes of pink) and now I find myself looking under her tail at her (yup tan) rear end. I really am way more impressionable than any free thinking adult should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 P.S. You guys have me doing the oddest things since I've started reading this board. I've been caught looking at the roof of my dog's mouth (it's black with a few tiny splashes of pink) and now I find myself looking under her tail at her (yup tan) rear end. I really am way more impressionable than any free thinking adult should be. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Next you have to smell their feet. Some people think they smell like tortilla chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oko Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Next you have to smell their feet. Some people think they smell like tortilla chips. My sister thinks her dog's feet smell great, and said if they made a candle like it she would buy it, lol. He's not a border collie, but when I was reading the thread about pink vs. black mouth I did have to check his mouth. Black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Next you have to smell their feet. Some people think they smell like tortilla chips. Fritos. Definitely Fritos. The difference is subtle, but distinctive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 This statement seems a bit contradictory...? Edit; thinking about this, did you mean "all black dogs have black and red pigment"? Yeah. I was referring to the specific topic at hand, which was a black/white dog who seemed to have red appear out of nowhere. But yes, black dogs from breeds where red/liver is also possible, but is recessive. So if the dog has B and b (or BB) it will be black. If it's bb it will be red. If red pigment is there, but the dog also has a gene for black pigment, the red will show through only if the black fades (in old hair, for example). As for feet, I've always heard people say they smell like fritos. I can kind of see (smell) that, but it doesn't seem particularly frito-like to me, at least not enough to make me go out of my way to smell my dogs' feet. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 I love the smell of dog feet (in the morning?) Grass and running running running. Fritos? Dunno about that... Maybe your dog runs in Taco Bell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivia Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Our rescue group has a litter of puppies that are 2 weeks old and they have frito feet! I love to smell their little feet and their yummy puppy breath. Out of my adult dogs only one has frito feet, the others don't, not sure why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiga's_mom Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Tiga's nose usually smells like brown sugar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Gideon had really healthy skin and has Frito feet. Micah has a mild allergy and does not have Frito feet. I love Frito feet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MommaLove Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Oh, my! If my husband didn't already think I was cracked up, he surely does now! Whoooo boy! So, this thread kinda makes my head spin. I get the BB, Bb, bb thing (same as human eye colour), but clearly I have a very miniscule understanding on this topic. Just one more thing to delve into! Who knew having a BC would lead to re-schooling myself I've tried to get a photo of Juno's red tufts, but she was wiggling around so much that all were blurry, and then the batteries died. So I'll try again once I remember to charge the batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 hum, frito feet??????? Ok yeah fritos your dogs feet smells like fritos "T whats your friend doing there smelling that dogs feet" "Yeah, well If they smell like fritos they can work in the dry country better. Thats what I heard......" "Do they LOOK like fritos?" "Well, no....they don't." "gotta look like them or all bets are off." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamS Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Did you ever get a picture of Juno's red markings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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