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This is an offshoot to the “Dirty Little Secret” thread in the Working Stock Dogs section of the Boards. I didn't want to carry on this discussion in the stock dog section, as it seemed inappropriate.

 

While I think that most, if not all the people here feel that the shock collar has no place in stock dog training. Most will say not in any training, except possibly to extinguish a behavior which is life-threatening for the dog or living things in its environment, such as an intransigent case of car-chasing, etc. And even then, it should only be done under the supervision of a skilled trainer who is well-versed in using the shock collar. Well, that’s how I feel, anyway.

 

But some have expressed dismay at the use of pinch/prong collars.

 

Certainly both are easily misused, and often relied upon by people who are too lazy or ignorant to train their dog out of bad habits. Personally, I find the choke a much more harmful collar than the pinch, especially either thin chains (or nylon chokes, which don’t release pressure on the dog’s neck when the dog stops pulling). Both the choke and the pinch collars can cause serious damage to a dog’s windpipe without careful use.

 

A pinch collar looks medieval, but unless the dog is jerked really hard or allowed to simply habituate to pulling in a pinch collar, it isn’t nearly as dangerous as a choke. I have known people who “accessorized” their dogs with pinch collars because they thought it made their dog look fierce, (or Goth) and never even attached a lead to it – or attached the lead to both the pinch and the fancy studded or spiked flat leather collar as well – rendering it harmless. Heavily accessorized, but entirely benign pit bulls are very common in my neck of the woods. (There are also some which are decidedly not benign.)

 

I have used a pinch collar on dogs brought to me with the habit of pulling on a choke. The pinch was used in conjunction with a flat collar and two leads. A pinch collar feels very different than a choke when tightened. It spreads the pressure around the circumference of the neck, and if fitted properly, never causes choking, the way a choke collar does. Often I found that the dog’s initial response to the different feel of the pinch collar will be to slacken the lead and turn his attention to the handler. This allows the handler to reward the leash-slackening and opens an avenue to better communication with the habitually-pulling dog. Habitual wearing of a pinch collar can wear the hair off or irritate the skin, and of course, if a dog is allowed to pull hard or lunge it can break the skin. The pinch collars I used had little rubber tips on the ends of the prongs. I haven’t seen one like that in a long time. I don’t even know if they still make them that way.

 

Nowadays we have all sorts of other tools in the box for the forging dog, but back in the ‘70’s this was my method, and I never had a dog injured or frightened by the pinch collar.

 

I usually tell people not to use a choke, because most don’t have the timing to use it correctly, or enough self-control not to use it punitively. There is also a fairly high risk for accidental injury with a choke. I kept a choke on my current dog whenever she went out on the street with me for a long time. I did so because she was very apt to panic at loud or strange sounds, and with her neck/head shape it was always a possibility she could slip a collar that was not really snug. She is calmer now, and I only use it when there is a lot going on out on the street. I can come hand over hand up a leash to a panicked dog pretty quickly, but I’d rather have my normally non-pulling dog wear a choke than risk her twisting out of her flat collar and into the street.

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I did so because she was very apt to panic at loud or strange sounds, and with her neck/head shape it was always a possibility she could slip a collar that was not really snug. She is calmer now, and I only use it when there is a lot going on out on the street. I can come hand over hand up a leash to a panicked dog pretty quickly, but I’d rather have my normally non-pulling dog wear a choke than risk her twisting out of her flat collar and into the street.

A martingale collar would serve the same purpose. It can be adjusted so that it tightens enough to prevent the dog from slipping the collar but not enough to allow the collar to actually choke.

 

J.

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It's all about using the item the way it was INTENDED. So many morons don't even know how to properly fit a Prong collar, but use it anyways.

I love my prong collar. I have two - one for my girl, and one for whatever foster dog I'm taking care of at the time. My girl just would not listen to me when leashed, especially when she saw a squirrel. She would lunge at it, and hit the end of the lead before I had time to react. There's no way that hitting the end of the lead with such force was good for her neck. And she would pull, all the time. I tried the proven menthols for months...it got better but never stopped.

I finally got a prong collar, and I love it. I kept her on a very short lead at first so that she wouldn't hurt herself when she lunged at a squirrel. Sure enough...she saw one, tried to lunge, and didn't like the sensation she got when it pulled tight around her neck. I made sure she was on a short enough lead that there was no possible way she could harm herself. Ever since then, she won't dare go for a squirrel. She may perk her ears or do the BC stalk, but that's it. Whenever a dog passes by us(we bike a lot) she'll completely ignore them. There's no more pulling, she will heel perfectly at my side when we're walking or riding the bike. And it's so much safer for me on the bike, knowing she's not going to see something and suddenly pull me over.

I do not use a prong with plastic tips. They don't sell them around here.

My girl actually gets super excited every time she sees me take her prong collar off the hook it hangs on. She associates it with going for a run next to the bike.

 

I think it also depends a lot on the dog, though. For some dogs it may be too "harsh" for them. For those stubborn "I'll do what I want" dogs that refuse to listen, it can be great. But it's all about knowing how to use it right...If you use it incorrectly there will be serious consequences on the dog.

 

I know little about coke collars...But I do not believe in shock collars. There have been studies that show it can actually increase aggression, or that a dog will simply become "immune" to the shock.

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I love Suzanne Clothier. She says it best IMO.

 

Agreed. Especially this:

 

Used properly, it can be a useful tool in very limited circumstances, particularly in the case of serious inequality of strength between dog and owner. But my preference is always for resolving the lack of cooperation, training & understanding that is the real problem. Simply finding a way to physically restrain the dog is nothing more than management. Where necessary, a prong collar can serve as an interim device on the way to a buckle or martingale collar as the sole piece of equipment.

 

 

I have put a prong on exactly 2 dogs in many years of helping people train their dogs, and in both cases the dog was much bigger and stronger than the inexperienced handler, and was gone within 2 or 3 weeks.

 

A collar and leash should be a piece of safety equipment designed to keep your dog from being injured if he or she make an error in judgement, and to help people around you feel comfortable. It should not be what you use to control his behavior long term, imo.

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A collar and leash should be a piece of safety equipment designed to keep your dog from being injured if he or she make an error in judgement, and to help people around you feel comfortable. It should not be what you use to control his behavior long term, imo.

Well said!

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My opinion is that these types of collars, including a shock collar can be used as a tool for training. But only if the trainer actually knows how to use them and I find very few trainers know how. A lot of people and "trainers" abuse using choke collars or shock collars. When positive methods can be used, they absolutely should be but sometimes there are dogs with problems that can have them end up dead and if positive training has been tried (seriously not just for a day or two) and it has not worked at all, sometimes in order to save a dog I think using a shock collar can be appropriate. For the majority of dog owners out there though, I don't recommend using any of these because most people don't know (including myself) how to properly implement these tools as a training aid instead of just continuously correcting or punishing the dog.

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When I would walk my pit bull mix and my border collie mix together, they outweighed me, so I started using the pinch. Jack (pit bull) took to it just fine. Wolfie would show minor stress signs when it was being put on but then was fine (I now regret putting him through the stress, even if it appeared minor).

 

Scorch absolutely abhorred getting it put on and after only 2 uses, generalized the discomfort to any other collar. I had the interest of everybody's safety in mind when walking multiple dogs, but I quickly decided that there had to be a better way. I'm much more a fan of easy-walk harnesses for dogs that pull. The easy-walk seemed easier to wean off of too than the pinch had been. My dogs are happy to put them on and I still feel I have back-up control if needed.

 

I used to think I preferred a pinch over a choke, if I had to choose between the two, but now I'm not so sure. In guide dog training, I've seen a wealth of collar reactions in dogs that have worn the pinch, much more so than compared to the choke (and these are Labradors, albeit bred to a "softer" level than hunting lines). Also because any tension on the lead causes a correction from the pinch, I've seen great increases in leash reactivity. Dog sees other dog, tightens up lead slightly, feels "biting" pinch all the way around neck, associates it with other dog. I've seen this over and over again and it's finally been enough to convince me that I rarely feel a pinch is appropriate.

 

Generally speaking, I don't think I will ever use a pinch on a border collie, or similar sensitive dog, again.

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I use a slip lead ~ 99.9% of the time on Cerb. It's not that he needs it (he almost never pulls) it's just that it's easier for me to slip it on and off his head.

 

Other than walking through snake country, where leashes are required by law or in neighborhoods where folks might not be comfortable, Cerb is off lead. I usually carry the slip lead in my hand where I can quickly get it on him if something weird happens.

 

We used a prong collar on Hestia (foster) because she was literally almost pulling my wife's arm out of the socket. It turned out that Hesti was 70% Husky and 100% loony. Sweet girl but she had NO impulse control (rabbit heaven here) and wouldn't take treats or toys for reward.

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For regular "loose leash" walking I don't personaly use a prong..have been able to teach all my dogs/fosters with justa slip collar pressure/release...and lots of patience..but I don't hesitate to recomend them to people with pets who need more control over there dog. I promote the idea of doing whatever's necessary to keep dogs outta shelters and I think the prong collar is one of the more simpler tool to use and is very effective if used properly...

 

I do however, use a prong for training for competitive obedience and the trainers I work with do also. Used as a tool for communication it's fitted snug and up right behind the ears, used mostly for teaching attention/heeling and keeping the head in the correct position..It's preffered BY FAR over the choke chain which I rarely see in training anymore. The prong seems to have more of an even pressure placement around the whole neck, more of a "grab" and when used subtly you can guide a dog with steady pressure if need be, or a quicker correction here or there..it makes timing easier also. Plus the dogs seem to take the various correction better since the pressure of tug of a prong IS more subtle and less traumatic as a JERK by a choke chain....

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I think you can accomplish the same thing with a head harness and there's no pinching involved. I also like the easy walk body harness, but for real stubborn dogs, a head harness can be a very effective tool during training.

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I don't use the prong, pinch, or shock collars and see no reason for them. I was told by a good friend and breeder that she won't sell to anyone that requires "gadgets" and that those who need gadgets don't need a dog. I agree. There are many, many ways to train a dog without using those types of collars. If you can't take the time to learn how to train your dog using appropriate methods then why have a dog? That sounds harsh but I have seen too much violence used in the name of training and the physical and emotional damage those methods produce. Of course, if that is someone's preference than by all means use the method but don't expect others to approve or sell you a dog. In just the past year I've seen dogs with holes burnt in their necks, collapsed tracheas, and spinal cord damage brought into the vet clinic. I'm sure the owners meant well but. . .

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I know I don't have the skill to use these devices, so I stay away from them - The last time I was at the local AKC obedience class (over a year and a half ago) I witnessed the trainer put a pinch collar on a 3 month old German Shepard pup and give the leash to a 10 year old boy. "She'll lead now," she said. "Good bye," I said and Brodie and I went out the door - after a quiet word with the boy's parents.

 

She also tried to suggest a choke and/or a pinch collar for Robin, who was a tough nut to crack re: proper heeling. Some of you will remember, I had no upper body strength after thoracic surgery and was stumbling around on a week knee after a total knee replacement knee as well (and lets not forget the numb feet -- dear doG, I was a wreck!), so part of the problem was I walked way too slow at the time "Don't beat the dog up because I was walking too slow...take a stick to me," I said.

 

 

The "obedience" trainer was partly right...Robin is a natural puller. but her solution was way off the mark, IMO... Robin pays no attention to life's little obstacles...he's a fan of Admiral Perry. And it's dangerous to use physical punishment on any dog with a "Damn the torpedoes attitude" if you don't know what you're doing.

 

If I'd read a little further into the literature, I would have taught him to heel off lead first, then put a leash on him but hindsight is 20-20. If I had put a choke collar on him, he likely would have damaged his trachea. I'd lay odds I would have gotten the pinch collar on him once, maybe twice and the third time wouldn't have been pleasant. I think he would have bitten me to protect himself. At least that's what I suspect our rescue dog did to protect himself from having a shock collar put on him. Just an educated guess.

 

So I finally put a easy leader harness on him which stopped the pulling of my arm but wasn't an "end game" kind of thing so we played a number of different training games folks here on the board suggested (including finally, off lead heeling). I worked at rally games and clicker training is what fixed it in his mind, though he is forgetful in excitable moments.

 

For Robin and Brodie, positive reinforcement seems to work the best. Here is our latest exercise for loose leash training in those "excitable" moments, which seem to to focus around sheep. The dog is in his crate in the car. I clip on a lead. He waits for my signal. He exits the crate and stands, then we walk elegantly to the barn door, on lead. He waits when I roll back the barn door; we walk through the alley; he waits when I open the opposite door, then we stroll to the gate. He waits when I close the gate. We walk to a position where we are ready to begin working. I ask him to lie down. He lies down. Then, he gets his sheep. WOOO HOOO!...

 

If at any point in this exercise the dog starts tugging my arm off, I stop. I don't ask him to lie down, sit or or do anything in particular. I just stop. Bearing in mind with Robin, especially, the less said the better, this gives him time to think. Some dim bulb goes off in his brain from the earlier obedience training with the clicker that he gets rewarded if he comes back to me, and he comes back to my side and we commence again. Brodie turns because he's looking for reassurance and the moment the leash slackens, we get to move forward again.

 

No, I don't carry a clicker. I've got enough to juggle, opening and closing things, and on the way through the barn, I do pick up a walking stick and the stock paddle. (They have to stop for that too.) Baaa! is enough :) as the dog's reward is that he keeps moving toward his goal - getting into the sheep pasture. The closer Robin gets to the sheep, the more cooperative he is; the less Brodie is - he's very nervy around the sheep but he's improved greatly over the summer...go figure. We will keep this up until they are calm, quiet and collected in all phases of the process.

 

I think that Brodie "gets" that I'm teaching him something because he interacts with me when he does it right - he's a soft dog and wants to please. He's much easier to work with because of this tendency. He started out very nervy around the sheep but he's improved greatly over the summer. I suspect that Robin sees the required behavior only as a means to an end. He behaves because he has to in order to get what he wants - the sheep - all the more quickly. He wants to do things right because he wants the reward.

 

I'll be the first one to admit there are times when I could be stricter with my dogs, especially Robin. He minds his manners but he's a pushy, bombastic dog -- when my husband said, "We'll take the red one." he didn't know what he was in for... but he picked the right one for me.

 

And I do use corrections. I had posted a question in the training section about praise because it seems that Robin ignores praise and hears only the corrections. With a proper, fair, and properly timed correction, he'll quickly adjust his behavior because he wants the reward - the sheep.But I don't think that anything that I personally do on a daily basis will be improved by the use of a choke collar or prong collar.

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Collars are tools and I'd hate to see any tool banned. People can always find ways to abuse animals in the guise of training.

 

For walking a dog there are options, but the best option is to train the dog!

 

Some options are: flat buckle collar, front attaching harness, no pull harnesses, gentle leader (and relatives of this device).

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I hate it when people make broad generalizations..it really shows there ignorance on the subject..

 

 

Banning certain training tools because they have been misused by a few is just rediculous...not looking at the hundreds of thousands of well respected trainers who use them properly and effectively and the desperate pet owners they do help enjoy there pets and not end up in shelters just baffles me.

 

Any tool or method in the wrong hands can cause damage...period..but don't condemn the people who these tools help and who use them in a responsible manner. And don't judge something you obviously know nothing about.

 

I have been training and competing with dogs succesfuly for over 20 years and you would NEVER guess when you see my dogs happily owkring with a prong that they were in any way shape or form hurt by or abused with these tools...

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FWIW I am not a fan of the easy walk harness. it goes right up tight behind the legs and it seems like it would be incredibly uncomfortable for the dog even when its not pulling

 

I agree that it took a lot of work to make it fit right on a gangly, growing pup with (at the time) a narrow chest and a heavy body. I abandoned it pretty quickly for that reason. He would readily step into it though, so I'm assuming he found it at least tolerable (or the means to an end). On its own merits, I didn't really see it as a teaching tool, though I spent some time in positive reinforcement (clicker training) each time the device turned him back to me. That at least caught his attention and helped somewhat, I think. I didn't have to jerk the lead, pull on his neck, etc.

 

Liz

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ShyShepherdess,

First of all, I think it's highly unlikely that any training tool like a prong collar or a choke chain is going to be banned. Who would do the banning? And I don't think banning is even being discussed in this thread?

 

But I do think it's important to have these sorts of discussions. I know there was a time when I wouldn't have known enough to consider the damage a choke chain can cause. If these sorts of discussions make even one pet owner stop and consider what damage they might cause in the name of training, then IMO that's a good thing.

 

I'm not sure who you've directed your comments to, but ISTM that most folks on this forum do know something about the various training tools being discussed (as someone else pointed out, as a whole, we seem to be a pretty dedicated bunch when it comes to training our dogs), at least everything and anything up to a shock collar, and some have used those. So I don't quite get your "don't talk about something you know nothing about" comments. People are discussing this topic because they do know something about it and they have their own experiences to relate. You may disagree with them, but that doesn't make them know-nothings.

 

J.

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I hate it when people make broad generalizations..it really shows there ignorance on the subject..

 

 

Banning certain training tools because they have been misused by a few is just rediculous...not looking at the hundreds of thousands of well respected trainers who use them properly and effectively and the desperate pet owners they do help enjoy there pets and not end up in shelters just baffles me.

 

Any tool or method in the wrong hands can cause damage...period..but don't condemn the people who these tools help and who use them in a responsible manner. And don't judge something you obviously know nothing about.

 

I have been training and competing with dogs succesfuly for over 20 years and you would NEVER guess when you see my dogs happily owkring with a prong that they were in any way shape or form hurt by or abused with these tools...

 

My question would be (and this isn't to start a tousle), my understanding is that the prong and the choke are training devices...You must at some point, encourage the owner to begin to declare victory and start to wean the dog off the training tools? The average pet owner quickly becomes dependent on these types of things after the first eight week obedience course, disappears, and never learn how to continue to work with the dog to solve the problem. Or, they read a book, buy one on their own...then they end up at the vet's office with a wounded, disfigured dog.

 

Even the misguided instructor I ran into explained that, with training, she would eventually see the pup transfer to a buckle collar.

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I apologize if I offended anyone...I was %100 reffering to Crawford Dogs comments..suggesting that anyone who uses these training tools shouldn't have a dog, or be sold a dog, etc. I think broad generalized statements like these can be damaging, especially to people who come looking on this board for advice, some of it life saving to a dog....

 

 

 

"I don't use the prong, pinch, or shock collars and see no reason for them. I was told by a good friend and breeder that she won't sell to anyone that requires "gadgets" and that those who need gadgets don't need a dog. I agree. There are many, many ways to train a dog without using those types of collars. If you can't take the time to learn how to train your dog using appropriate methods then why have a dog? That sounds harsh but I have seen too much violence used in the name of training and the physical and emotional damage those methods produce. Of course, if that is someone's preference than by all means use the method but don't expect others to approve or sell you a dog. In just the past year I've seen dogs with holes burnt in their necks, collapsed tracheas, and spinal cord damage brought into the vet clinic. I'm sure the owners meant well but. . ."

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My question would be (and this isn't to start a tousle), my understanding is that the prong and the choke are training devices...You must at some point, encourage the owner to begin to declare victory and start to wean the dog off the training tools?

 

That is the approach that I take these days. I used to simply say that chokes, prongs, etc., are not allowed to be used in class, but I found that didn't work out all that well since people who use them usually do so because they feel that they need them.

 

Now I incorporate teaching J-leash walking into my classes from Day 1. From that point forward, no leash pops, pulls, tight leashes, or moving the dog around by the leash is permitted. I teach students how to use reinforcement to get the J, how to maintain the J, and we work through the steps - one week building on another - to teach the dog to successfully maintain the J in real life situations. The exercises in class teach the handler how to do this, and the dog learns what is desired.

 

Those collars quickly become jewelry since they don't do anything when the leash is kept slack, and they typically vanish as the handler learns that he or she does not have to be dependent on them. Sometimes, I need to help people make the leap at a certain point, but usually they do this all on their own, and that is often the learning that makes the deepest impression.

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I think it's pretty silly to refer to different harnesses, etc., as "gadgets." A flat collar and a leash are "gadgets." It's purpose is physically restrain the dog and prevent it from leaving you while on the leash. Not all dogs are sound in temperament, either. Not all dogs can be trained simply by voice and pressure alone. And training "gadgets" can be very useful to help control the dog so that training can begin.

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Part of the reason I started this thread is that dog training is so very different now than it was when I first took and interest in it. When I started a choke collar was referred to as a training collar, and the two terms were interchangeable. I knew, know, and have trained many dogs - most, happy, tails-up workers - and I was uninterested in embracing the "cookie-pushers" when that sort of thing began to be more common. But in my efforts to work with the occasional dog that was damaged in mind by either a previous owner that was abusive, or one that was simply ignorant, I began to experiment with other methods, and now I will use what ever type of motivating influence seems to work best with an individual dog. One of my favorite sayings is, "If it works, don't fix it." But my second favorite might be "Evolve or perish." And the bottom line for me is, "The right tool for the job." IMO, that will be different for every dog. I haven't thrown the choke collar or the pinch collar out of my tool box, even though they are rarely needed. But choice of tools is not only dependent on the dog's temperament, but on the handler's as well. Some people are more comfortable with a clicker and a bag of cheese bits, and I think being a happy, confident handler goes a long way to making a happy, confident dog.

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I apologize if I offended anyone...I was %100 reffering to Crawford Dogs comments..suggesting that anyone who uses these training tools shouldn't have a dog, or be sold a dog, etc. I think broad generalized statements like these can be damaging, especially to people who come looking on this board for advice, some of it life saving to a dog....

 

 

Yes, my comments were rather broad but in what way should I be specific? And yes, I do support breeders putting their dogs in homes that where they will be treated humanely. Perhaps your issue is with the definition of humane regarding training methods? I realize that we all have different opinions but personally I wonder if you've ever looked at training methods from the dog's standpoint. Here's a really good veterinary behavior article that I find really interesting. http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/overall_collars.pdf

 

There's also a really good article in Animal Behavior Consultants Newsletter July, 1992, V.9 No.2

 

"Neck and Skeletal Injuries In Dogs" that talks about various training collars quite a bit. Sadly, I don't have a digital copy of it and don't know if its out there in cyberspace.

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