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I think you can accomplish the same thing with a head harness and there's no pinching involved. I also like the easy walk body harness, but for real stubborn dogs, a head harness can be a very effective tool during training.

 

You may want to take a peek at Suzanne's thoughts HERE on head halters.

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You may want to take a peek at Suzanne's thoughts HERE on head halters.

 

I clicked on the link and opened the article. It's way too long for me to have time to read right now. If you want to summarize the main points, I'm happy to respond. But, I don't have the time to read it right now.

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This always makes me chuckle :P

 

I challenge anyone on this board to walk my 2 full-grown GSD's (70 and 85 pounds) on leashes and flat collars within 50 feet of a cat. :o

 

(oh, btw both have their CD - yes, I know, AKC :) )

 

Oh, I forgot, my dogs outweigh me by over 50 pounds B)

Just wondering: Have you tried to teach your dogs to leave small animals alone? I am not opposed to the use of prong collars (I have used them myself), but I find it odd to use "chasing small animals" as a reason for having to use a prong collar. I think it would be useful to teach your dogs to leave cats alone (whether or not you like cats) then have to worry that the dogs will pull you off your feet to chase a cat.

 

J.

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I think it would be useful to teach your dogs to leave cats alone (whether or not you like cats) then have to worry that the dogs will pull you off your feet to chase a cat.

 

J.

 

I'm sorry but *I* can't quit laughing ....Julie, I have one of those that won't leave a cat alone. I'm not talking pestering, she is flat out into *kill the cat*. Nothing I've done works and quite frankly I'll only go so far (and she'll go farther) in the corrections. So, we maintain a *no cat zone* wrt her! And yea, she's caught squirrels :)

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Hello everyone,

 

Sorry to take this thread off on a tangent, but:

 

This always makes me chuckle :P

 

I challenge anyone on this board to walk my 2 full-grown GSD's (70 and 85 pounds) on leashes and flat collars within 50 feet of a cat. :o

 

(oh, btw both have their CD - yes, I know, AKC :) )

 

Oh, I forgot, my dogs outweigh me by over 50 pounds B)

 

A lot of years ago (before The Dog Wars), I was a serious obedience competitor in both the AKC and the UKC. At that time, I had two "throw away" Border Collies (they each had been discarded by their former owners), and each dog had earned their AKC and UKC UDs. Even though they had certificates stating that they were very well trained, neither of those dogs could be trusted off leash outside of an obedience ring. There was definitely something lacking in their training.

 

As Julie suggested, it would probably be a good idea to teach your GSDs to ignore the cats that you encounter on your walks.

 

Regards,

nancy

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FWIW I am not a fan of the easy walk harness. it goes right up tight behind the legs and it seems like it would be incredibly uncomfortable for the dog even when its not pulling

 

 

I have a couple of dog trainer friends who agree and endorse the Wiggles, Wags and Whiskers no-pul harnesses over the others because it seems to fit and work better.

 

You can see it here.

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I was told by a good friend and breeder that she won't sell to anyone that requires "gadgets" and that those who need gadgets don't need a dog. I agree.

 

 

just remember Bethany, that a stock stick used in a fashion to help steer and influence a dog is considered a "gadget" by some too. There has been more then one dog left with injuries from misused stock sticks.

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Karen,

Since I have cats and other small animals I would go there, or get rid of the dog. I guess it's just a different perspective, but I personally wouldn't want a dog that I couldn't trust around my other animals. I hope no one visits me with their cat (or other small animal) killers....

 

J.

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I agree. I walk out late with my dog in a place where there are cats, raccoons, skunks and opossums. At night she goes off lead. There have been times when she has spotted a small furry and peeled out to give chase. A sharp "No!" and a brisk "Come!" bring her to a halt and turn her around. No collar of any kind needed. To be sure, she will look back wistfully, but she comes.

 

Heck, even my cat will relinquish a bird when given a sharp "Mugen! Drop it!" It's all about respect. I respect them enough to teach them what they need to know to avoid personal mayhem (or my displeasure) and they respect me and are confident that I will treat them well and fairly. I think it's a good arrangement. I think it's essential. An unreliable dog is a liability. And, well, unreliable.

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Ya know it's these types of responses and thoughts like these that remind me lifes too short....pick your battles. Julie, I specifically said a no cat zone wrt her, don't worry, we'll not visit again. GB, congratulations, on your perfectly trained dog and cat, you're a far superior trainer. My wanna be cat killer is truly unreliable, unless of course you need the ewe's with newborns moved, or all 200, or a ram held.......talk about respect to me then.

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Ya know it's these types of responses and thoughts like these that remind me lifes too short....pick your battles. Julie, I specifically said a no cat zone wrt her, don't worry, we'll not visit again. GB, congratulations, on your perfectly trained dog and cat, you're a far superior trainer. My wanna be cat killer is truly unreliable, unless of course you need the ewe's with newborns moved, or all 200, or a ram held.......talk about respect to me then.

Hmmm. I am not a "superior trainer" per se. I have lapses like other people. I feed my dog at the table. If you have shaped the behavior of your stockdog to do the work that you describe, you are obviously talented as well. My dog does not have such a noble calling - I don't mean that facetiously - she is a pet. She does what I want her to because it's important to me that she get along in the niche she finds herself in.

 

As you say, there is a limit to what lengths you will go to eradicate the cat-killing behavior. It's not that you couldn't do it, it's that you have simply extended yourself as far as you are willing to in that direction. Your dog probably has a life-long future as a stock dog and a retirement with you when it can no longer carry out those duties. My dog is in a slightly different situation.

 

My concern for my dog is that there is a 50/50 chance she will outlive me. I want to give her the best shot of finding a home in this environment - as a pet - that she will be so well-suited to that she will have a secure future too.

 

As you say - life is short, and one must pick one's battles. Mine are to try and ensure that my pet dog, should she outlive me, will not lose a chance at a good home for lack of "civilized behavior," and to have the most rewarding relationship - for both of us - that we can for as long as we are together. To me, that is predicated on mutual respect. People, like dogs, earn the respect of others in different ways, in different situations.

 

I salute your dog's ability with stock, and your role in shaping it. I personally can't abide a cat-killer. So naturally I have strong feelings on the subject. My apologies if I offended you. It was not my intention.

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You know, I think people are forgetting that there are many different breeds of dogs, of different sizes and strengths, with various issues.

 

And sometimes people are novices and may have inadvertently trained a behavior that is hard to break; "gadgets" come in handy at times like those to manage behavior while training begins.

 

Some dogs are extremely leash reactive towards small animals. The owner might be training using counter conditioning, but does that mean the dog shouldn't ever go on a walk because they might unexpectedly encounter a squirrel? That's a time when smart management comes into play.

 

And yes, there are owners who might use a "gadget" for management, whether it's a pinch or a head halter or whatever. They may not care about weaning the dog off of it because the product works.

 

........so what? If the dog is well-cared for and content, I'm fine with that and not going to judge (not talking about abuse here). My first dog could have benefited from more training but she was a wonderful companion and I like to think that she was happy; I'm sure many of us here could say the same. Don't forget what being a novice dog owner feels like (of any breed, not just a border collie).

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Karen,

I'm sure your dog has many qualities that make her invaluable to you. Here at my farm, I couldn't tolerate a dog that will kill small animals, no matter how good it is with the sheep, because let's face it, we all have lapses, and if I were to have a lapse with such a dog, then something is going to lose its life, and I don't want to be responsible for that. We all make choices like that. And of course when I invite people over I always note that I have free range chickens and cats that are sometimes outside so that people whose dogs aren't trustworthy in such settings are forewarned.

 

J.

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Sigh. I don't think I implied that she had killed anything. You said she clearly *wanted* to kill and I said I couldn't have a dog like that becuase I'd make a mistake somewhere along the way and the want to kill might become actually kill. That's not disparaging you or your dog; it's simply stating my recognition that *my own management skills* aren't up to keeping a dog that has a desire to kill. But whatever.

 

J.

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Our rescue group is very clear that we will not adopt a dog out to anyone who uses choke chains, prong collars or shock collars, or uses punishment/correction based training. We will not adopt to those subscribing to the training of Cesar Milan or Brad Pattison. We will not allow our dogs to be entered into any training class that are based on any kind of punishment/correction based training, or supports the use of choke chains, prong collars or shock collars.

 

THe need for the use of prong collars and shock collars to train for competitive obedience, otherwise you won't get a good working dog with high scores is also a bunch of hooey. I have trained several HIT trials, and have never resorted to any kind of punishment based training to get a dog consistently giving me high score and hit in trial performances.

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Several HIT's hugh...have you ever put an OTCH or equivilant on a dog???

 

This statement just boggles me...the dogs I have trained to high levels with the aid of a prong are by no means under any abuse..what exactly do you define as abuse?? I would consider it to be the MISUSE of any said tool, the the point where it was causing an animal pain/discomfort..and you can't just assume someone using ANY training tool is using correction-based training...that's just rediculous..

 

I, nor any of the top trainers I work with use "correction-based" training....we use almost completely "motivational-based" training, using primarily postive influences, back up by an occasion correction if needed....

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Our rescue group is very clear that we will not adopt a dog out to anyone who.... ...or uses punishment/correction based training

 

 

I can't imagine that you would have many people lining up to adopt if they understood that as a qualifier or non qualifier.

 

I can guaranty you that we would not have our dogs out performing demonstrations or running at cattledog finals if we did not utilize punishment/correction based training to some degree. I quite frankly don't understand why a person or group of persons would demand that dogs bred, selected and used in a fashion that requires the dog to be able to be trained through correction to be utilized for their intended purpose would want to try to take a non corrective stance. Not good for the dogs in the long haul.

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If you want to train a dog to walk on a flat collar without the use of punitive devices or stop gap tools like no pull harnesses, you should look into Brenda Aloff's "Backing Up" method. She pairs the pressure of the collar on the throat with a physical cue to back away from that feeling, using body pressure. Sure it looks and feels kind of stupid walking around backward with your dog for a few weeks, but once the dog has made the mental connection, every time it thinks it's hitting the end of the leash it will release the pressure itself because it's the paired cue. And it works like a hot damn.

 

I used prong collars for a long time because I have a lot of dogs, I rarely walk them on a leash and when I do walk them all, it's like trying to control a sled dog team. So I resorted to prongs and would defend their use. But ultimately, I did not feel good about pinching and poking my canine partners to make them mind. Some people feel okay about that, but it doesn't feel good to me, for me and my dogs.

 

We sue no-pull harnesses on the shelter dogs because most of them come in pulling like freight trains, and we need to be able to manage them safely. I think they work just fine, but I can't imagine walking 6 of them at once, all dancing sideways etc. every time they hit the end of the leash. But I think they are fine tools for sane people who have fewer dogs than I do, or people who don't want or can't take the time to teach a loose leash walk another way.

 

I'm not a purely positive trainer, and I feel on some level that a dog that can take a correction is probably a more well rounded dog. But I don't want to correct my dogs constantly for an activity that is supposed to be fun for both of us (ie going for a walk). And I don't think the prong teaches them anything about self control.

 

RDM

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I would consider myself an awesome home for a dog...I currently have 3 dogs, one a rescue. Despit having kids and a busy schedule our dogs are a HUGE part of our family, they go to every sports practice/game, they get jogged and played with every morning, long hike or run after work. I do stockwork with the border collies 2-3 times per week, trials on the weekend..competitive obedience 1-2 times a week and trials..we EVEN took the dogs on our honeymoon..they are loved and HAPPPY!!!

 

I also choose to use a prong collar from time to time, when training for obedience trials and or when situations arise like when my kids want to walk the dogs. It's for the safety of my kids, and for the dogs(so they don't pull and damage themselves)..

 

I have Rarely encountered a trainer using correction based training. From my knowledge base, it just doesn't happen anymore. All the dogs, including mine are taught in a very controlled manner, where they know what a correction means. There is by no means any manner of abuse going on where a dog is drug or yanked or pulled all over the place with dog having no idea what is going on. People may pictue a fearful dog, cowering at some kind of abusive correction. This is simply not the case. I would go as far as to say if this is what someone really has come to with there experiences, they are either letting themsleves be overly influenced by some negative experieces and bad trainers, or they just haven't been training very long or with other knowledgable people.

 

In learning how to train dogs for competitive obedience you need the dog to be animated/happy and focused in order to be competitive, if you think about it, using correction-based training would achieve the opposite results. which is why nobody does it anymore. The prong collar is a tool used by almost every trainer I know, some of them almost ENTIRELY positive otherwise...the key is good training, using is appopriately and TRAINING RIGHT so that the dog understands what it means.

 

To say that I wouldn't be a good home for an adoptable dog because I choose to use these tools under certain context is sad. How close minded and judgemental can someone be.

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If you want to train a dog to walk on a flat collar without the use of punitive devices or stop gap tools like no pull harnesses, you should look into Brenda Aloff's "Backing Up" method. She pairs the pressure of the collar on the throat with a physical cue to back away from that feeling, using body pressure.

 

I think that that is similar to the way Michael Ellis does it too. I know some people won't even put a collar and leash on a young pup starting out because it can decreases sensitivity to leash pressure. They opt to use a harness if they need to restrain it when it's really young and then as the pup learns a bit of focus and self control they teach it to be highly responsive to leash/collar pressure so they can use it for precision training.

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Hello everyone,

 

In reading the latest posts on this thread, this caught my attention...shysheperdess wrote:

 

:...the dogs I have trained to high levels with the aid of a prong are by no means under any abuse..what exactly do you define as abuse?? I would consider it to be the MISUSE of any said tool, the the point where it was causing an animal pain/discomfort..."

 

As someone who has experience using a prong collar (I used one once or twice, years ago when I did competitive obedience, then discarded it as being unnecessary in my training program), I am wondering why you use a prong collar, if you don't intend to cause "pain/discomfort"? After all, causing pain and discomfort is the purpose of a prong collar! Even the lightest fingertip touch on a correctly fitting prong collar will get the dog's attention, because it causes pain and discomfort. Right?

 

Regards,

nancy

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Julie, I think you're missing my point you wrote below:

 

. I think it would be useful to teach your dogs to leave cats alone (whether or not you like cats) then have to worry that the dogs will pull you off your feet to chase a cat.

 

J.

 

Some things cannot be trained they must be managed. The original comment related to using a prong collar to manage a behavior. GB, oh nevermind.

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I guess I wasn't super clear, but I'm sure you knew what I meant..one with reason isn't comparing using a prong collar to someone meliciously starving, hanging, beating, etc a dog..things I would consider abuse.

 

Yes a prong collar cuases discomfort for the dog, but so does any form of correction. That's the point of one, to cause a bit of discomfort in order to bring about a change. My dog surely doesn't like it when I apply pressure for a correction in stockwork, but they know they need to change something and if I've done my part they usually understand what that is based on the amount of pressure/correction and the type..when I give a rare correction in obedience, my dog knows what it means and changes immedietly.."oh ok, I understand"...

 

I do believe it's cruel and abusive to use a correction on an animal when they DO NOT understand what it means...this to me, is where the misuse of tools come in...Yanking a dogs face off with a choke/slip/prong collar or providing a shock when the dog has no idea through training what it means or how to improve is cruel..

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Some things cannot be trained they must be managed. The original comment related to using a prong collar to manage a behavior.

I think we agree on that. I was really just (over)reacting to someone's comment about using prongs on dogs who outweigh her and want to chase cats. I know there are dogs that need to be managed, but that particular post just provoked a knee-jerk reaction in me because it does get tiresome when people make such claims (and it happens often): Well if your dogs outweighed you and wanted to do X, then you have to use Y. I think in most cases training can go a long way toward fixing such issues. But I do understand that there are also dogs for whom training alone hasn't worked and so who need to be managed. (After all, I have a biter. No amount of training will stop that. So I have to manage the situation. Not exactly the same, but just an example to point out that I do understand the point you're making.)

 

J.

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