bcnewe2 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I am sorry to admit I own a would be cat killer too. I have had big hats with quite big names try and help me with his issues. They usually end up saying just keep your eye on Him around cats. Strangely he is not called to other small animals. He doesn't see chickens unless I ask him to work them. He'll play Chase a squirrel but isn't chasing to kill them. He has gotten a hold of a cat twice. Once was someone that told me.they had put their cat up after telling me it was a dog savvy cat and would teach my dog to respect cats. Cat went after dog....I choked the cat out of my dogs mouth. Then promptly put my dog up. One other time my not animal savvy mom tried to carry her cat nto the house thinking the dog wouldn't go for the cat in her arms. Bad news again. Mick was raised with cats. But then we got a cat that growled and attacked every time it could. That is when the problem started. If I came to your house Julie, you can bet your bottom dollar he would not be roaming around your place Loose. I take full responsibility for my dog. If he is on a leash he wouldn't waste his time trying to go for a cat. Once I was at a friends farm working sheep. Her cat jumped right into micks driving sheep line. For one second he hesitated and almost went for the cat. I calmly asked him to walk on and he went back to work, I don't know what i'd do if he were to give up sheep work to stalk or hunt a cat. I love him dearly but that might be the end of his life as a working dog. As far as training tools, my choice is a flat buckle collar. I have used a bark collar after exhausting other means. I make no judgements on people who are trying to train their dogs with what they feel comfortable with. Except maybe an E collar, id have to speak my opinions out loud. And as a side thought...I find nothing funny about my cat killing dog nor anyone else's. I am ashamed of my dog for this one single issue but more ashamed of myself for not being able to train through it. And I'm pretty comfortable with my training abilities. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Just watched the Denise Fenzi video. I have never seen an obedience test before. My dog would certainly fail the minute the judge tried to 'handle' him. He would probably try to lick her face (if he didn't jump on her first) and then fall over on his back to get a belly rub. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 No, but maybe to some yes. I guess I looked at it and shook my heading thinking that I wouldn't want my dogs to be treated that way . . . To me that's the heart of the matter. I would not treat my own dogs in such a manner, nor would I allow anyone to do so under any circumstances, and I am deeply grateful that there are myriads of training options that do not involve the use of such devices and techniques. Quite frankly, I'm not at all impressed by the young Lab's heelwork. Nothing about it appealed to me in the least. I like a head 'sup heeling style, but I prefer a more flowing, natural gait where the beauty of the dog's movement is showcased. To me that dog's movement looks stifled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 To me that's the heart of the matter. I would not treat my own dogs in such a manner, nor would I allow anyone to do so under any circumstances, and I am deeply grateful that there are myriads of training options that do not involve the use of such devices and techniques. Quite frankly, I'm not at all impressed by the young Lab's heelwork. Nothing about it appealed to me in the least. I like a head 'sup heeling style, but I prefer a more flowing, natural gait where the beauty of the dog's movement is showcased. To me that dog's movement looks stifled. To be fair, hes young and gawky and that may have contributed to the lack of flow. But I was not impressed with the video either, there was a lot of popping for what? I saw her pop the dog several times when he appeared to be in position, so I am not sure what shes popping? I would love to see her train a dog like a Siberian like that and get anywhere... Do I think all prong collars = abuse? No. That kind of black and white thinking usually isn't helpful. But I don't believe for one minute that you need to use a pain inducing collar to get competitive results. I just don't buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I'm a little confused. Why use a prong on a 10 m/o puppy that you've (presumably) been training for 6-8 months? I mean, I've used a prong, but at that point why do you want to train an otherwise really nicely focused pup that way? IMO, If you've got great focus take advantage of it and shape it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnottyClarence Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I think in the lab example she was using opposition reflex (tendency to brace and pull back when pulled forward) to work a bit on forging (getting ahead of position), a typical sort of correction manuever. I don't do competition obedience any more, but have an "older" dog (don't let him hear me say that) who has beautiful heeling position to this day, though it's been years since he did it. I taught him with food and a toy. His head position is such that he can both see me and see ahead, and I never asked him for anything else. Seemed quite suitable for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc soul sista Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 OK, when training for competitive obedience we use what's called a "motivational tug"..it's more of a sries of a few tugs, not a POP or FULL on correction...again, correction baed training in where you are trying to inflict actual PAIN on the animal is rarely used from what I've seen since I've been in competitive obedience. The closest I've seen to any kind of abuse would probably be an Ear Pinch retrieve. Anyway, there taught to a young dog using loads of treats and the collar up around the neck by the ear, dog at attention. When the dog is giving you great attention you praise heavily, give a few tugs on the collar and jackpot of treats...you are training the dog to NOT associate the tugs with anything negative and eventually shape the training to be more of a reminder to pay attention. If the dog looks away they get a few tugs and a jackpot of treats when they look back..eventually they graduate to knowing what the tugging means and respond accordingly. The trainer is already at the place in training where she is expecting more out of the pup and learning to really sustain his attention and take some more pressure which I think he is handling beautifuly.. This trainer is a very accomplished young lady, couple OTCH dogs including her Novice A dog..they all heel differently. She is what I would consider a very creative trainer, always coming up with new training ideas. Her training philosophy is not and should not be defined by the fact that she uses a prong collar to tweak her heeling. The last thing I would consider her is a correction-based trainer. I know that this young lab is the most hard headed energetic dog she's trained so far. So that could be the reason for the heeling style, use all that energy and harness it..the previous poster is right also. When you have a dog that has so much forward movement and will have the tendency to forge..it's best to focus that energy UPWARD..hence the bouncy style..also, the reason he has such a pronounced bounce at this age is when teaching young/new dogs to heel you want to teach kind of a cadance. Alot of people train to music or a metronome to teach the dog to keep an even gait. Heeling is like a dance and the owner and dog need to be like one. Getting the dog stride and speed down and getting him to control his body, keep good head position/attention and in synce with the handler are all things this dog is in the baby stage of learning... My guess is the bouncy-ness will fade as he matures into a more flued movement, he is probably years away from competing. Here is another pic of someone perfomring Shutzund heeling, I know a few people who train for these competitions and the OVERLY enthusiastic heeling style is greatly encouraged..alot more physical than obedience trails.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc soul sista Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Alright I'm posting another training video of this same pup at 9 months, it shows what she's doing a little bit more for those who don't understand...kind of gives an insight into how she is shaping the heel for this dog also.. You'll see she is constantly releasing up to either a "hand touch" or to food slightly above heel position and slightly behind her...encouraging that upwatd movement and for him to focus more up and slighlty behind her as opposed to her chest and face which would cause him to forge...she works him a little bit here and there, breaking upward and then setting back up again. She is also working an inside circle which encourages the dog to stay back and up and collect them selves.. toward the end she is working on him keeping his butt aligned with his front and some lateral movement..always breaking and rewarding..the prong is on, but is rarely used and the leash is loose almost the whole time.. http://www.youtube.com/user/koribevis?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/18/52vXVj7sRqw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc soul sista Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Also..this might give some insight into why the pup is so bouncy!! LOL!!! His IS a little pogo stick!!! http://www.youtube.com/user/koribevis?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/24/A4qNiM3VgA0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I believe this is Bridget Carlsons style of training...Bridget is probably one of the most accomplished/innovative trainers in this modern age. Has put +50 titles in obedience, agility and field trials on her 7 goldens, 6 OTCH's, 9,500 OTCH points, 168 HIT's, +200 High combined, and perfect 200 scores in both open and utility. She has the first and only OTCH on her Norwich Terrier "hemi". She competed over seas representing the US for Crufts, placing there and has also put Master Hunter titles on all of her goldens. I believe she also recently won the US National Obedience Invitational.. You can find alot of her training videos on you tube, but I'll post this one where I believe she really goes into how she starts puppies. Yes she emphasized a high head carriage and alot of animation from the pup but it is all positive and motivational. The pup is having fun, they're working on tricks, etc. You'll see that in all of her videos, HUGELY motivational lots of fun!! she does implement a prong when they get to be around sixth months old, again to work in that correct head placement as a foundation but she'll go to say in another vid she takes the prong away as soon as she needs to and just uses a flat buckle collar for training the rest of the dogs life. Anyway... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KvDUapBQbU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 correction baed training in where you are trying to inflict actual PAIN on the animal "..it's more of a sries of a few tugs OK, what ever you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I am not a dog trainer. And I am not sure what the letters mean?? But My pups that I kept from Taw's litter are now ten months old. I teach them on the narrow trail to stay behind me by just slapping my leg and saying wait in a growly voice if they try to pass. They learn it without a leash or a collar. Although the do have leather collars with my name on it. This is how I've taught all my pups. My dogs when at a trial are not on a leash, they learned what wait means on the narrow trails at home. I understand the neccessity of a dog knowing when it must stay with you. I cannot comprehend why the dog is not looking where it is going? The folks that train the dogs to look up at them, when they are in the woods, and say, its hunting season and they want the dogs to stay near them, I would think the dogs would be tripping over stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I see that that one lady hunts with her golden retreviers. Do you have a video of that? Maybe they don't do this then. It might make more sense to people if you post the hunting video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 This came from the Leersburg site and I believe it explains quite well as to what is happening to the young lab, I understand that some want to believe that corrections, discomfort and pain are not part of the equation, but I don't buy it. I also am not saying that training in such a fashion is all bad, I use simular techniques myself on occassion, especially when I have a dog that does not want to engage into a specific situation naturally. It may seem like a contradiction to say that a correction can add drive to a dog but in fact that’s exactly what can happen when done properly. To add drive multiple corrections must be given very successively and quickly. They don't need to be "take your head off" correction. Light little pops on the leash can have a positive effect. When this is done during heeling it will bring a dog up in drive. In essence what happens is the dog's nerves are turned on. This means it becomes excited because the handler is saying NO! NO! NO! Pop! Pop! Pop! with the leash (or remote trainer). These low level corrections elevate the dog’s level of excitement (or concern). These multiple corrections cause the dog to quickly move into compliance. http://leerburg.com/corrections.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 NO! NO! NO! Pop! Pop! Pop! with the leash (or remote trainer). Um, dare I ask what a "remote trainer" is? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Are we talking about the use of corrections in general now, or specificly the prong collar usage?? Because based on the method she is following the pup will be off the prong collar and on a flat buckle relativley quickly..and the whole purpose of the original post was to show that using a prong collar in this way is not facilitating any kind of abuse to the dog and is just a small portion of the entire training program..so for someone to be condemned for using a tool in this way, as some method of torturing the dog into submiting or performing..is just not true.. I know that the trainer of the black lab in the video is using the Bridget Carlson method as I e-mailed someone who knows her. I would guide you to her training vidoes for a full explanation as to what she is doing and the effects she sees from her specific methods.. The point of any correction is to communicate to the dog that they are not doing something right and either help show them what you want, or in the labs case he already know what he needs to change and does so accordingly.. Tea, this style of heeling is used in competitive obedience events,Shutzund, Rally...it would not be used in a sport such as agilty or in herding/field trials where you very much want the dogs eyes and attention on the task at hand, with voice direction from the handler..attentive heeling would also not be required in a general walk as you described(although it can come in handy for distrations).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Julie, as I understand it, a remote trainer is another name for an e-collar but I may be mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Just to educate everyone, the Leerburg method is largely used for Shutzund training or people interested in doing so...I personally in my years of competitive obedience training never met anyone devoted to that method or have heard of anybody doing so. I am not familiar first hand with how training is done for attentive heeling in shutzund alhtough from speaking to shutzund trainers it traditionally requires more force, and some choose to use e-collars. Shutzund heeling is encouraged to be more physical from what I understand, VERY animated with the dog touching and bumping the trainer alot of the time. This in no way shape or form connected to or similar to the methods of Bridget Carlson, I would direct anybody who is curious as to what is going on with the black lab or about how she trained this...to the link I provided.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Well, I can't see using those collars. And I can't see the point of a dog walking beside you looking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 And I can't see the point of a dog walking beside you looking up. The point of looking up is that's what gets you the big score in the obedience ring (I don't know anything about Schutzhund). It's specific to the venue, it's not super-hard to teach, and I don't know why there's so much drama around this. My Lou dog, my Open dog, who has run in some fairly large trials, can do a pretty nice heads-up heel. He also can trot at my side looking wherever he wants, he knows 'get behind' means walk behind me, and yeah, he's off leash pretty much the whole time he's at a sheepdog trial. A heads-up heel is just a trick, the same way that a drop on recall, or a moving stand is just a trick that you train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Thats not drama. Its my opinion! We all have one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Well, I can't see using those collars. And I can't see the point of a dog walking beside you looking up. It's a competitive sport - like baseball. No real point to it, but lots of people enjoy it. Competitive OB is not my cup of tea, but some people really enjoy it and I certainly don't fault people for wanting to do it with their dogs. If you're both having fun doing something together than that is a good thing! I mean, I teach stupid pet tricks for fun (no point in a dog that can walk backwards up the stairs either, but I taught Kenzi how to and she seems to really enjoy it!). No real point in those, but my dogs have fun doing them and I like doing something goofy with them every now and then. As to the collar, I can't quite understand the purpose in that context. Reading about it in this thread reminded me of reading about the bearing rein in Black Beauty. Not saying that is what is happening, but the use of the prong collar in teaching the dog to hold it's head in that manner is what it reminds me of. Why not just shape it? Why not just teach the dog to yield to leash/flat collar pressure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaporflowers Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 And I can't see the point of a dog walking beside you looking up. There's no "point" any more than there's a point to a controlled dumbbell retrieve... just because my dog will retrieve a dumbbell doesn't mean he'll retrieve my keys or mail or other useful things. It's a skill to teach and train for fun. It's not necessarily useful (although I can and do generalize it to other objects). It's just part of the sport. When I heel in the show ring, the goal is to have the dog's full attention; they are walking beside me, ignoring distractions, and yes, trusting that I won't run them into something. Technically the dog does NOT have to be looking at the handler's face; some dogs don't, and in fact, some little dogs are trained to pay more attention to, say, the handler's knee. That being said, I have caught myself using a formal heel when maneuvering with Scorch through a crowd, like at our downtown farmers market. Every once in a while, there are barking dogs or children running around and squealing... I ask for a heel, Scorch gets locked on to the "job" and ignores the obnoxious distractions. It's a nice way to substitute a more appropriate behavior for what might turn into a bad situation. So I have used it in "real life". I am still confused by the prong-to-increase drive, it's-not-really-a-correction. It doesn't matter if you have a tough dog, the collar operates on a pain principle. If people use it to get correct head position or whatever, that's fine; if the dogs aren't shutting down, and the results are what was desired, then ok. But don't tell me there's not at least "discomfort". You're increasing drive by increasing anxiety (which increases overall adrenaline, which I suppose can be harnessed and eventually turned into enthusiasm... but it's still using pain to achieve that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I am having fun talking with you guys! Are you trying to change my opinion about looking up? I have no argument with someone training a dog to do harmless tricks for fun. If thats what they want cool. Do all those folks that do Obedience think this is a trick? Ok...if you say so...I do not know much about it. I have never trained dogs to do tricks. (Maybe I am missing something, you never know!) But I can't help but think of this scenario. "Hey Bill Watch my dog do this cool trick" "Ok....whats he do? Roll over? Play dead?" 'Nope...watch watch! He's looking up!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- If I taught a dog to do a trick it would be to play poker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Shepherd Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Watching the Lab video I am GLAD I got out of Comp. obedience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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