Blackdawgs Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 From the dog's perspective, there is a difference between the good, clean harmless whoopee sort of chasing and chasing with the intent of grabbing, killing, and dissecting. While both are instances of "prey drive" the former is essentually play, whereas the later is very serious business. The body language in the two instances is completely different (ask me how I know) There is a phenominon known as "preditory drift", which is why good dog parks have seperate areas for large and small dogs. The chase starts out as good clean fun and then the chaser crosses the line and kills the small dog, who became prey in the large dog's eyes. It is easy to talk about "respect" and simply teaching the dog not to chase cats until one has lived with a dog that crosses the line. The body language is both scarey and beautiful at the same time because something very primative is occuring. When dogs (wolves, lions, tigers, etc) go to this primative hunting place, they may be unaware of the world around them except for the object of prey. So, I think that "respect" and simply teaching not to chase pretty much goes out the window. The dog may not be any more capable of responding to "come" than is a panicked animal that is bolting towards a fence. So, yeah, management is sometimes the only thing that one can do. And, no, I don't own any cats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Julie, I think you're missing my point you wrote below: Some things cannot be trained they must be managed. The original comment related to using a prong collar to manage a behavior. GB, oh nevermind. Aww, heck, Journey. I think this is one of those things that happens on forums. Misunderstandings, I mean. When you said your dog goes into "kill the cat" mode, there's no stopping it. And you said it had caught a squirrel. I assumed, wrongly, it seems, that your dog had caught and killed a cat too. When actually, I don't even know if your dog killed the squirrel it caught. I used to have a Doberman that hunted varmints. She would catch and kill gophers and ground squirrels. (And eat them) I never interfered with this because she enjoyed it so much, and what's a few less wild rodents in the world? But she was schooled early on that cats were off limits, and she respected that. She also was pals with a pet rat I had. I've seen dogs go after cats with that silent deadly intensity that someone above (Blackdawgs?) described. My stepdad owned a cat-killer. Pooch would come home from disemboweling a cat and then sleep with our cats. My dad, who was a raving asshole, thought it was very funny to see Pooch dismember the neighborhood cats. I've also seen dogs go after a cat with that same affect, only to pull up when they reached the cat and stand there with a stupid "Whaddo I do now?" look. Sort of like dog packs that harry, and sometimes manage to kill livestock (usually from exhaustion and terror) but then have no idea of how to open the lovely envelope of meat they've brought down. It's unnerving to watch, and how do you know, really, how it will end? We used to shoot 'em and not wait to see. (Except for Pooch, who was granted license to kill cats.) It sounds like your management of the problem is working OK for you and your dog, and it's would-be kitty lunch. I guess that's what really matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjohanna Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 FWIW I am not a fan of the easy walk harness. it goes right up tight behind the legs and it seems like it would be incredibly uncomfortable for the dog even when its not pulling I tried it on my BC Rowley who pulls like a cart horse, and within two minutes he was walking down the street twisted into a pretzel shape. Didn't faze him at all. I gave the harness to a woman who used it with better results on her Brittany. Pretty much what RDM said: I once used pinch collars, but I really don't like them and since Rowley will pull right into one, I'm certain it would cause damage if I continued to use it -- and what's the point, since it doesn't curb his pulling? I haven't had the patience to try the Back Up method consistently. I put a Comfort Flex harness on Rowley, put the leash around my waist, and find that I'm not nearly so bothered by the pulling when it's not jerking my hand and arm. I suppose my dog has trained me. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I tried it on my BC Rowley who pulls like a cart horse I think I must have his sister. At 11 months and 32# she pulled me over when she caught me of guard I've used a prong with her, it works when I'm on the ball with it. Collar presure to her seemed to be a signal to surge forward. She's the type that has to stay focused on me or she's pulling. I'm doing lots of calm focus work and teaching her that pressure is a signal to check back in with me. Slowly but surely I've been making progress. But wowsers, until I got her I never would have believed a dog that size could PULL so much. But I've also been doing bikejoring this summer/fall (she'll be 3 in December). If you can't beat it might as put it to good use. She LOVES it. Gets all wiggly when she sees the bike and harness then I give her the "go" and she just surges forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjohanna Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I think I must have his sister. At 11 months and 32# she pulled me over when she caught me of guard I've used a prong with her, it works when I'm on the ball with it. Collar presure to her seemed to be a signal to surge forward. She's the type that has to stay focused on me or she's pulling. I'm doing lots of calm focus work and teaching her that pressure is a signal to check back in with me. Slowly but surely I've been making progress. But wowsers, until I got her I never would have believed a dog that size could PULL so much. But I've also been doing bikejoring this summer/fall (she'll be 3 in December). If you can't beat it might as put it to good use. She LOVES it. Gets all wiggly when she sees the bike and harness then I give her the "go" and she just surges forward. Yes! Oh boy, can I relate ... Summer 2010 when I had owned him just a few months, Rowley pulled me *out of my chair* at a herding camp when the sheep went thundering past, 20 feet away and behind a fence. I'm not a tiny woman, but when Rowley took off, I went flying. And he's not a big dog, he's about 40 pounds and was about 15 months old at the time. Yes, we also do lots of calm focus work. Absolutely positively, collar pressure seems to signal Rowley to increase pulling. That's why the prong collar was retired in short order. Bikejoring -- good idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizel Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I have a couple of dog trainer friends who agree and endorse the Wiggles, Wags and Whiskers no-pul harnesses over the others because it seems to fit and work better. Thank you for posting this. My mom uses the Easy Walk when she walks my dogs and I’ve noticed my skinny male does seem a bit uncomfortable in it. Plus it's made in the USA! I’ll give this a try. I can guaranty you that we would not have our dogs out performing demonstrations or running at cattledog finals if we did not utilize punishment/correction based training to some degree. I quite frankly don't understand why a person or group of persons would demand that dogs bred, selected and used in a fashion that requires the dog to be able to be trained through correction to be utilized for their intended purpose would want to try to take a non corrective stance. Not good for the dogs in the long haul. Well said. If you want to train a dog to walk on a flat collar without the use of punitive devices or stop gap tools like no pull harnesses, you should look into Brenda Aloff's "Backing Up" method. She pairs the pressure of the collar on the throat with a physical cue to back away from that feeling, using body pressure. Sure it looks and feels kind of stupid walking around backward with your dog for a few weeks, but once the dog has made the mental connection, every time it thinks it's hitting the end of the leash it will release the pressure itself because it's the paired cue. And it works like a hot damn. Definitely going to try this. I have Rarely encountered a trainer using correction based training. From my knowledge base, it just doesn't happen anymore. I actually saw such a trainer not too long ago – a 70s left-over - it was ugly! I believe I train something like you do, and I get irritated when people don’t differentiate between what we are doing and that. I started out doing positive-only training with a super soft little border collie female. It was quite successful, and we had a blast. Later, I purchased a rather strong-willed 9-month old male. He was attacked by another dog in a purely positive class and, after that, started barking at other dogs. I made the rounds of positive only trainers, but they were totally unequipped to help us. Finally, I found an long-time obedience trainer who'd been working with border collies for 30 years. She used lots of positives and a few well-placed mild corrections. This approach worked very well for him. He was able to join the regular obedience class shortly thereafter. There were no residuals - no fear of me, he loves her, and he did not become dog aggressive. I do not particularly like giving corrections, but I felt it was my responsibility to do what it took to help him get beyond this problem so he could get back to being a dog and stop being a patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Something related to pulling that I have taken to heart is that the human on the end of the leash can contribute and teach a dog to pull by pulling back. I have had good success with training by keeping that in mind as I work with the dogs. I have a small dog who pulls a LOT but I tended to just let it go as she weights all of 8 lbs and it wasn't an issue. So with her and the puppy I changed my mindset about my part in the pull equation and resisted pulling back, instead I had soft hands and used my voice and body language and surprisingly both the dog who pulled for years and the puppy both are much more responsive on the leash. Heres a linkto her webpage with more information. But I have to say, the realization that how my hands interacted with the leash was a game changer for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizel Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 But I have to say, the realization that how my hands interacted with the leash was a game changer for me. I've noticed that when I've transitioned to off-leash as well. Some kind of communication goes through the leash even when it's not tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Yes! Oh boy, can I relate ... Summer 2010 when I had owned him just a few months, Rowley pulled me *out of my chair* at a herding camp when the sheep went thundering past, 20 feet away and behind a fence. I'm not a tiny woman, but when Rowley took off, I went flying. And he's not a big dog, he's about 40 pounds and was about 15 months old at the time. Yes, we also do lots of calm focus work. Absolutely positively, collar pressure seems to signal Rowley to increase pulling. That's why the prong collar was retired in short order. Bikejoring -- good idea! I think Rowley must be some relation to Robin as well...we finally got somewhere with the backup method, but he tends to forget most of that where sheep are concerned. We're working on it. He is oblivious to his surroundings. I asked him for a lie down today and he instantly dropped - right into the narrow ditch of water he was crossing. I felt rotten for not realizing exactly where he was but who would have thought he would put on the brakes that fast...today he was really "in tune". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Ask Pam about the time she correct a dog for breaking a down, only to realize the dog had downed on top of a snake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Several HIT's hugh...have you ever put an OTCH or equivilant on a dog??? This statement just boggles me...the dogs I have trained to high levels with the aid of a prong are by no Yes I have - three dogs and they all have HITs. The one I trialed the most, my old dog Brinn had a bad day if he had under a 197. I am starting to work on my other two dogs to start back in obedience competition. It is each Rescue's preference as to what they are looking for in homes for their dogs We dont' have any problem finding the right homes. Some Rescues absolutely will not adopt to homes with children, or will not adopt to someone that does not have a fenced yard. We assess each one - it isn't an automatic no. Those of us involved in my rescue group do not subscribe or agree with punishment based training methods, including choke chains, prong collars and shock collars (inclucing invisible fencing). When then should we feel that it would be okay to send our dog to someone who is going to use a training system we do not consider acceptable? I would never sell a dog to someone that does either. That is my right to do so. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Are you the person who shows in CKC??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc soul sista Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 K people, I'm just posting this vid..I am trying to mostly stay out of getting sucked into this. I think most people who are set in there ways about training a certain are convinced of it and will continue to do so...to each there own and that obviously works for them so great. What I am digruntled about is people taking it to the next level and actually condeming another method, saying it's abusive, etc. I wanted to post this vid of a friend and VERY accomplished competitive obedience trainer working her 10 month old lab puppy for attentive heeling using a prong collar...he is in no way shape or form being abused and looks happy to be working. No abuse here folks. Not to mention he is a lovely heeler. It took countless hours of correct training of course to get this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 oh boy...to be totally honest, the stride and gait the dog is offering reminds me of the same gait offered by the Gaited Show Horses. While the handler may be accomplished what screams in my head "Leave that poor dog alone!", I could hardly watch the entire video. If would be one thing if there was a purpose to encouraging that type of behaivor or gait and total attention to the handler, but I see purely fancy and personal satisfaction. What good does it serve the dog? If the dog was a hunting lab he wouldn't travel that way, you wouldn't want him eyed up on the owner, you would want him looking for his work. But I suppose people could argue that competitive obedience is his work. IMO, this has nothing to do with the tools, but instead what the tool is used to create. Ok, I'm disturbed by that video, I'm sorry...I probalby should not have posted, maybe I am totally misunderstanding what is being depicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc soul sista Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 It's ok I'm sure from a stockdog background it seems quite silly. There are alot of different kind of heeling styles, my border collie heels completely different. We do attentive heeling also, but he is a bit longer in the body and it's not comfortable for him to have his weight on his hind end, head totally up heeling. But he still has total attention/focus/position..I just had to train him to "look" lower down on my body for a focus spot not up at my face/left shoulder like most obedience people prefer.. I didn't mean to post the video to illustrate the difference in the "doggie activites"..I don't want to say herding is a sport because I guess I don't really consider it the same as the artificial "games" we play with our dogs(agility/obedience/etc.)...more just to show that Cedar is more than happy in his work and that using the prong as a training tool really is not causing fear/sulkyiness/etc..any kind of fear/stress based behaviors that someone who is not educated might think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 I don't see a happy dog, I see a animated dog working really hard to avoid the correction and stay in a frame that is dictated by fancy, watching the video there are times where the dog was still at heel but easing up his stride, it appeared that the timeing of the corrections matches those moments. I don't think that many recognize that we can condition an animal to travel and display behaivors that are appealing to us and that we identify as "happy", but does it truely mean the animal is happy? Obedience, agility and other sports are great, but when it gets to the point where the animal is pushed beyond what is natural and is held to holding that form I begin to wonder if we are crossing a line. IMO, way worse then using the tools as a means to enforce simple obedience or self control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc soul sista Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 OH my...jeez. This pup was trained to heel this way USING a prong collar. She didn't yank the crap out of him until he started heeling like this. She started as a pup luring like most trainer do, rewarding for the right behaviors. The pup is HUGELY rewarded and encouraged to heel in a very animated way. The prong is used mostly for the attention aspect of it. I can assure you her dog LOVES to work and watching together as a team is truly awesome. She also trains for hunting as well. I guess I'll put another video up, same kind of heeling, not quite as bouncy but the weight is disributed on the rear...sorry for the whole vid, don't know how to edit it to just the heeling :s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 K people, I'm just posting this vid..I am trying to mostly stay out of getting sucked into this. I think most people who are set in there ways about training a certain are convinced of it and will continue to do so...to each there own and that obviously works for them so great. What I am digruntled about is people taking it to the next level and actually condeming another method, saying it's abusive, etc. I wanted to post this vid of a friend and VERY accomplished competitive obedience trainer working her 10 month old lab puppy for attentive heeling using a prong collar...he is in no way shape or form being abused and looks happy to be working. No abuse here folks. Not to mention he is a lovely heeler. It took countless hours of correct training of course to get this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WDCmUQ0t6I I'm not from a stock dog background, but I am rather put off by the style of work this dog is showing. No problem with the prong collar - dog is obviously fine with it - but the whole head-wrap, pronking forehand and I-can't-take-my-eyes-off-of-you thing is artificial to the point of creepy to me. Dog as puppet, rather than a conscious being with a life/mind of its own. Where is his dignity? Dogs are perfectly able to keep track of a person without craning their heads up at the handler’s face or bouncing like a rubber ball on their forehand. Some may call it stylish, but to me it’s more demeaning than just about anything. I can remember a time when a dog heeling in the obedience was alert to his surroundings while maintaining correct position and moving in a precise manner, with tail up – happy and proud to be working, without appearing to be foolish and hare-brained. I understand that obedience competitions are just that – competitions – and to win you have to present the package that gets the ribbons. But if my dog had to behave like that to be competitive, I’d find something else to do that would show the dog as an intelligent, capable, thinking animal. Sorry… JMO This is probably a whole 'nother thread. Just want to reiterate, that I don't see the collar as being abusive here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Obviously obedience isn't some people "cup o tea" so to speak, it's obviously an "artificial game" as is agility.freestyle/etc. And there is a highly competitive edge to it like some of the other sports. I can tell you that most dogs don't heel to this degree of "prancy-ness" or what not..but I wouldn't go as far to think that's it's demeaning to the dog, he sure doesn't seem to mind. And I can tell you that if the this particular dog didn't have a natural tendency to want to work that way she wouldn't be able to train him to work that way. Some of the more athletic dogs just work that way, I see alot of goldens/labs with that kind of hackney type gait. And if people are going to argue that the dog who heels like this is going to be injured or is in someway un-comfortable, then we might as well break open the arguement of injuries done in the name of all "artificial sports"...namely agility, even frisbee/ball fetching. I lost track of all the friends I've known over the years with injured dogs from agility/ball throwing etc... Point being, it may look awkward to some but this young dog seems to be enjoying his little work session and i'm actually quite impressed with how focues he is at 10 months old....I'm sure to train this way this young guy gets alo of training and attention from his handler so I doubt he would have many complaints... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Two years ago I was invited to produce stock dog demonstrations with some other professionals that trained in other disciplines. One was a e-collar trainer. Her dogs responded in the same fashion as the dog in the video, each time the dog began to loose attention she would "tickle" it, the dog was also rolled back on to it's hind quarters and quite animated. Same technique, different tool. Is it abuse? No, but maybe to some yes. I guess I looked at it and shook my heading thinking that I wouldn't want my dogs to be treated that way, instead of teaching the dog to heel properly at her side she was using the e-collar as a crutch, IMO to create something that was natural. Being that it is not natural it would not be far to assume that while the dog may be able to get through and obedience class without the collar it would not be long before the handler would need to go back to it to get the dog back into that unnatural frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I'm not from a stock dog background, but I am rather put off by the style of work this dog is showing. No problem with the prong collar - dog is obviously fine with it - but the whole head-wrap, pronking forehand and I-can't-take-my-eyes-off-of-you thing is artificial to the point of creepy to me. Dog as puppet, rather than a conscious being with a life/mind of its own. Where is his dignity? Dogs are perfectly able to keep track of a person without craning their heads up at the handler’s face or bouncing like a rubber ball on their forehand. Some may call it stylish, but to me it’s more demeaning than just about anything. I can remember a time when a dog heeling in the obedience was alert to his surroundings while maintaining correct position and moving in a precise manner, with tail up – happy and proud to be working, without appearing to be foolish and hare-brained. I understand that obedience competitions are just that – competitions – and to win you have to present the package that gets the ribbons. But if my dog had to behave like that to be competitive, I’d find something else to do that would show the dog as an intelligent, capable, thinking animal. I have heard this before and I just don't see it...its simply an activity, a set of patterned behaviors that a dog is trained to do. Its stylized for a stylized sport. I doubt very much the dog feels no dignity, the dog is simply doing what he was trained to do. I would bet he digs it because it gets him what he wants. Your perceptions are your perceptions, I doubt the dog is reading into it anything close to what you are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 OH my...jeez. This pup was trained to heel this way USING a prong collar. She didn't yank the crap out of him until he started heeling like this. Yeah, exactly. For comparison, lets watch Denise Fenzi and her lovely Terv Raika (who has never been jerked on a pain inducing collar and has the same happy, lovely attentive heeling) at the Invitational. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6r2-YCwvJw So why would you ever want to "yank the crap out of him" to get lovely attentive heeling when you don't have to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Towards Debbie, I don't think the trainer intent is for this trainer to continue to use prong collar to tweak desired results..it's a training tool, not a crutch. You cannot wear a rpong collar in competition so the goal is obvioulsy to train the dog to the level that it is not needed. And on the video she rarely uses any correction, if so just light leash pops to keep his attention. The dog is also ONLY 10 MONTHS OLD!!!! So to think that this is even close to the final product is probably a wrong assumption... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Rush Doggie, that is very lovely heeling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaporflowers Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Thank you rushdoggie, I was going to post about Denise Fenzi. Her Tervs are plenty stylish and it's their choice. I also like when trainers work with a dog's natural heeling style; I don't get forcing a dog's head up, but that's just my green-handler opinion. I watched that video with the Labrador... right as they come around in a left circle at about 0:15, the dog is looking at her and she is popping his neck repeatedly. I'm not sure why... to get his head higher perhaps? To adjust his position? I don't know, but to me, she was popping a dog who was doing what she was asking him to do. When does the dog get to be right? The signals she was sending were very confusing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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