Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[Root Beer]

If they start breeding them for speed and agility, they'll swim too fast and not be able to perceive where the sides of the tank are located, crashing into them and causing serious injury.

 

Then they will want to study it and that will upset people to no end. Especially since they are no longer real.

[juliepoudrier]

Breeding Border Collies for agility is altering the breed (even if "they" choose not to acknowledge it). They WILL end up with a totally different dog (why does that not matter if "they" truly love the Border Collie breed?) I just don't get it??? Never have - never will.

This is the part I've never understood either. We've seen in this thread mentions of retrievers who don't retrieve, shepherds who aren't suited to either shepherding or other work, and so on. We have so many examples in front of us of breeds that have been completely changed from what they once were (their heyday so to speak) simply by groups of people (largely conformation aficianadoes) making breeding choices that aren't in keeping with the choices that created the breed in the first place. It's like there's this complete disconnect between what they see with border collies and what they see (and usually decry) has happened with other breeds. I've pretty much given up hope that breeders of non-working border collies will ever make that connection (though I think they may have, but instead justify it by claiming that the times they are a'changing, no one really uses/needs stockdogs anymore, this is the future of the breed, sports are just as important to those who participate in them as stockwork is to people who raise livestock, and so on--those very things have been said on this forum many, many times over the years).

 

I see the other part of that disconnect when people bring their sport or versatility or no-particular-reason bred dogs to me for training. These folks still seem to have in the back of their minds the idea that the dog should work because it's a border collie. I end up struggling with a dog that's got crucial puzzle pieces missing, that has no desire to work, and so on. After some period of time I end up explaining that their dog simply doesn't have what it takes to work livestock. The fact that I have gone through this numerous times says to me that people don't necessarily understand the bigger picture of what breeding for other things means to the dogs as a whole. *They* still think the dog should be able to work sheep, so that idea clearly persists, and as far as I can tell that belief is completely tied in with the name of the breed, FWIW.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

I'm curious about something. Who, among those who have been posting in this thread, actually hold the position that Border Collies should be bred for Agility?

 

I'm particularly interested to know if anyone who does not have a problem with the study of ETS is in support of sport breeding Border Collies?

 

It seems we have been debating these two points and I don't see that anyone in the thread actually supports sport breeding of Border Collies. Is there anyone who does? I would prefer if those posters would identify themselves. Incorrect assumptions could too easily be made about others.

[Root Beer]

They wanted the Border Collie because they have been bred for the RIGHT reasons ... not a whim.

 

It seems to me that the presence of successful working bred Border Collies in the sport of Agility would go a lot further toward convincing Agility enthusiasts of that fact than any assertions that their Border Collies have, unbeknownst to them, morphed into a different breed altogether.

[Rave]

It seems to me that the presence of successful working bred Border Collies in the sport of Agility would go a lot further toward convincing Agility enthusiasts of that fact than any assertions that their Border Collies have, unbeknownst to them, morphed into a different breed altogether.

 

Wick is doing her part... in many parts of the country. ;-)

[stockdogranch]

I see the other part of that disconnect when people bring their sport or versatility or no-particular-reason bred dogs to me for training. These folks still seem to have in the back of their minds the idea that the dog should work because it's a border collie. I end up struggling with a dog that's got crucial puzzle pieces missing, that has no desire to work, and so on. After some period of time I end up explaining that their dog simply doesn't have what it takes to work livestock. The fact that I have gone through this numerous times says to me that people don't necessarily understand the bigger picture of what breeding for other things means to the dogs as a whole. *They* still think the dog should be able to work sheep, so that idea clearly persists, and as far as I can tell that belief is completely tied in with the name of the breed, FWIW.

This. Absolutely. And I'll take it a step further--I have a friend who started out with ACDs. Did agility. Then got an ACK bred border collie (not conformation bred), and another (poorly) "working bred" border collie and phased out agility to start working them on stock (with another trainer). She decided she wasn't making the kind of progress she'd like and brought her dogs to me. The ACK one is pretty OK, and gets around a course well enough, but is not a really naturally talented dog. But with a lot of handling, he does alright. The other is less talented and has some issues working stock. But for a while she thought the lesser talented one was actually a decent dog, and wouldn't spay the dog (despite me hounding her) because she thought there might be something breed-worthy there. In the meantime, she has been exposed to some very well bred working dogs, and has seen and watched well bred pups from day 1 starting to becoming finished Open dogs. NOW she gets it--that breeding is such a HUGE part of the picture (proper training being the other part). So even with dogs that are kind-of, sort-of bred for the right reasons, there is a HUGE difference. She is now planning on spaying the dog because she sees the difference in the caliber of inherent working ability (and has also bought a nicely bred working pup). I think this was a case of ya just don't know what ya don't know, and I think there is some amount of this somewhere in this discussion and in people's perception.

A

[abcollie]

It seems to me that the presence of successful working bred Border Collies in the sport of Agility would go a lot further toward convincing Agility enthusiasts of that fact than any assertions that their Border Collies have, unbeknownst to them, morphed into a different breed altogether.

 

Then they would take that "successful" working dog (because it's winning at agility NOT because it's a good working dog) and breed it to another agility dog ... and where have we gotten to? When "they" breed do you truthfully think "they" care how a truly great dog can hold a single without a word from the handler? That a successful working dog will go 800 yards and bring sheep in a straight line back to you? That a good working dog will work 3 sheep with finesse and still push 100 with force??? Working stock is such an "intangible entity" that only those that CARE how special this is ... will bother to understand.

 

WHY should I TRY to convince them at ALL??? They took a breed that was bred for a PURPOSE and started breeding "for a game". I don't think they should be breeding at all(but again it's a free country and I have no desire to control the world). BUT, sorry I don't believe they CARE about the BREED they are changing faster than ever imagined :@(

[Eileen Stein]

I'm curious about something. Who, among those who have been posting in this thread, actually hold the position that Border Collies should be bred for Agility?

 

There are apparently a number of people posting who don't think that breeding for Agility will change border collies in any significant way -- that the product of these breedings will go on possessing the essential "border collie-ness" of border collies. I can't imagine why anyone who thinks that would have any problem with border collies being bred for Agility, whatever they might say.

[brndlbc]

Then they will want to study it and that will upset people to no end. Especially since they are no longer real.

 

Studying something like ETS in bettas I think would be a pointless matter as, in the many years that I have had and raised them, they are lazy jumpers by nature. They just never have the umph to make it over the rim. Now my koi on the other hand are great, willing jumpers (think Free Willy). All new koi get covered while in quarantine (yes we quarantine to prevent the spread of koi herpes virus and other nasty things http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/vm/vm11300.pdf ) as we have had some excellent jumpers (structure is everything).

[Root Beer]

There are apparently a number of people posting who don't think that breeding for Agility will change border collies in any significant way -- that the product of these breedings will go on possessing the essential "border collie-ness" of border collies.

 

OK - who, among those who have been posting in this thread hold the position that breeding for Agility will not change Border Collies in any significant way?

 

In particular is there anyone who does not have a problem with the study of ETS who thinks that breeding for Agility will not change the Border Collie in any significant way?

 

I realize it may seem apparent that some hold these positions, but I am interested in hearing directly from those who may do so.

[brndlbc]

OMG, I would love to see that!

 

Probably the best way to do that would be find a show and go talk to the handlers, er, members and see what it is all about

 

http://www.canadakoiclub.ca/site/

[rushdoggie]

Just because it's almost midnight and I think this needs to be posted here:

 

[Mark Billadeau]

I commented on Mark B's assertion that a sport bred Border Collie is a "designer dog" because of the negative connotation that term implies and how theres folks who would be offended if you called their dog that.

People love their designer breeds and are proud of them; you hold the negative connotation for this term.

 

However if working breeders approached sport BC breeders and said hey we want you to change the name of the dog you're breeding, then they would be laughed out of the room. Not because they're hung up on a name, but because they're not the ones who think there's a problem.

designer breed, jumper collie, sporty collie, etc..

It makes no difference what name I would have used, except Border Collie, someone would have been offended when I state the fact that dogs bred for sports are really no longer Border Collies.

 

This is because the conformation mentality is so ingrained in society that any dog that looks like a breed (or came from dogs that look like a breed) must be an example of that breed.

 

I've had this debate on here before and it got ugly, but if you really are trying to understand the mindset of those outside of stockwork, it is important to know that to those who are outside of stockwork, the notion that two Border Collies can give birth to something that is not a Border Collie is simply nonsense.

 

Getting past the mindset that a breed is defined by its looks is very difficult but it is the foundation of our breed and a few others.

 

Alaskan Huskies are not one breed (as defined by looks) they are dogs that perform a function and are bred to produce dogs that perform the same function. If pups don't measure up to this function and are not used for this function what are they? (husky, malamute, mut, whatever breed they look the most like, etc) If the pups not used for mushing are bred what are their pups called?

 

[Mark Billadeau]

If a dog that looks like the one above passes the ABCA ROM; what breed would you call it?

[Rave]

This is because the conformation mentality is so ingrained in society that any dog that looks like a breed (or came from dogs that look like a breed) must be an example of that breed.

 

 

While that is true, what's more telling of what breed a dog is it's is parents. If mom is a BC and dad is a BC, then the pups are BCs. You will not be able to convince any of the sports people or general public any differently.

[Tea]

Sorry had to add this....

 

 

 

When I was jumping horses we did get ones occassionally that I am sure had problems with depth perception, and or bad eyesight. A horse figures out where to take off and how high to jump before the fence. As the horse starts to take off it loses sight of the fence. It has to rely on what it saw before it took off.

 

Dogs have eyes set different than horses however depth percetion and bad vision would still make this activety harder for some individuals I guess.

The horses we suspected that had vision problems, were spooky and or stoppers. Few were horses that would jump well and then later in their career change their style.

 

I personally have nothing againest doing agility with the dogs. But I think it is a grave error and againest common sense to breed them.

 

 

Are people trying to create another breed of agility dogs? And then call them border collies?

 

I understand the fish thing although it made me hungry.

[Mark Billadeau]

While that is true, what's more telling of what breed a dog is it's is parents. If mom is a BC and dad is a BC, then the pups are BCs. You will not be able to convince any of the sports people or general public any differently.

So let's extend this a few more generations starting with the definition that Border Collie is defined by working livestock. If you choose not to follow this definition than you believe in the conformation definition of the breed.

 

working sire x working dam produce: Border Collies

sport sire (working parents) x sport dam (working parents) produce what?

sport sire (sport parents) x sport dam (sport parents) produce what?

 

To follow the working standard for the breed you must draw a line at which the pups produced no longer fit the definition of the breed.

 

If you follow the conformation definition of the breed there is no line.

 

 

[Pippin's person]

I think this was a case of ya just don't know what ya don't know, and I think there is some amount of this somewhere in this discussion and in people's perception.

A

 

And perhaps also what ya know that isn't so......

 

(and I'm not in any way referencing the discussion of whether it makes sense to tell someone their particular dog isn't a Border Collie. For the record, I don't believe it does nor would I do so.)

[Root Beer]

OK - who, among those who have been posting in this thread hold the position that breeding for Agility will not change Border Collies in any significant way?

 

In particular is there anyone who does not have a problem with the study of ETS who thinks that breeding for Agility will not change the Border Collie in any significant way?

 

I realize it may seem apparent that some hold these positions, but I am interested in hearing directly from those who may do so.

 

Anyone?

[Mark Billadeau]

Most of the canine genome is constant across ALL breeds; only a small portion of the genes change from breed to breed. Let's say we can find the genetic markers that produce the herding instincts. If we continue to define Border Collie by these instincts then those dogs with the genetic markers are Border Collies; pups produced that do not have all of these markers are no longer Border Collies. It doesn't matter what they look like or if most of the genes are the same as their parents (since most genes of all dogs are the same); the pups don't have the requisite genes that define the breed (ones that produce herding instincts). Genetically, these pups are no longer the same breed.

 

Genetic differences had been reported between working bred Border Collies and show bred "Border Collies". The researchers proposed these differences were due to differences in the breeding goals used to produce the dogs (i.e. loss genes responsible for herding instincts). If this is proven to be the case then there is no reason to believe genetic differences won't develop between working bred Border Collies and sport bred "Border Collies". Once there is a genetic difference are these dogs the same breed?

[Shetlander]

There are apparently a number of people posting who don't think that breeding for Agility will change border collies in any significant way -- that the product of these breedings will go on possessing the essential "border collie-ness" of border collies. I can't imagine why anyone who thinks that would have any problem with border collies being bred for Agility, whatever they might say.

 

Well, then there isn't much those people can say to convince you differently, I suppose. Explaining how agility people and the general public see things isn't an admission to holding those same views. I do admit that I still think of Quinn as a Border Collie despite his less than stellar ability to work sheep. I have never bred a dog and never will. When I decided I wanted a Border Collie 6 years ago, being an agility person at that time, I talked with other agility people about where they got their dogs and ended up with a sports bred Border Collie. He is wonderful for my needs and I couldn't ask for a better companion.

 

I do think Border Collies should be bred for work. I don't think that approach to breeding would be able to supply the demand for agility dogs, even if everyone in the sport decided they suddenly only wanted truly working bred dogs. But that isn't likely to happen so not really an issue that needs to be addressed.

[Little Bo Boop]

I was telling my husband about this last night ( I won't say what he thought of the ETS theory ;-) ) His first thought was Cycloptic refactive error, I know, WTH??? He's a former Air Force pilot, so he knows a fair amount about vision, depth perception, speed....evidently this is a test given to pilots...would make sense to me if this is what the problem is in these dogs....

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_error

[juliepoudrier]

As an add-on to Kristine's question (since we're about at that point in this thread anyway), how many of you who get that breeding for agility will change the breed in a significant way try to discuss this with your sporting friends? After all, you are in a much better position to understand their perspective, so why not try to be an agent of change? Too much trouble? Unable to push effectively against the ever-increasing tide?

 

How many of you who are seriously in to sports and "get it" make an effort to find a working bred pup vs. a sport bred pup?

 

Or does "get it" simply mean that you understand the argument philosophically, but in practice can't see how it matters (i.e., everyone else is doing it, so I won't make a dent in the problem if I personally don't do it)?

 

J.

[MaryP]

I'm almost afraid to comment for fear of being labeled as one of "them." But, I just wanted to say "yes" to this:

 

Explaining how agility people and the general public see things isn't an admission to holding those same views.

 

and this:

 

I do think Border Collies should be bred for work. I don't think that approach to breeding would be able to supply the demand for agility dogs, even if everyone in the sport decided they suddenly only wanted truly working bred dogs.

 

And to the above, this does not mean that I support sport breeding, but I think it is true that there would not be enough working-bred dogs to meet the demands of sport (and non-sport) people, so people WOULD get their dogs from somewhere.

[Rave]

Mark I understand what you're saying and your views on the matter, however most of the rest of the world outside of stockwork will not believe that two purebred dogs of one breed will not produce a purebred dog of that same breed in the short term. The overall, gradual, long-term effect is more believable though.

 

Root Beer, no one who thinks differently is going to speak up because these Boards have a habit of smacking down, err "educating" those who disagree, especially in this topic where everyone is already so riled up. Although since I have a thick skin, I can tell you my thoughts on the matter have changed over the years. I used to be as "passionate" about the "cause" as anyone else here. 15 years in the sports world though, surrounded by friends who love their BCs no matter where they came from, have made me care much, much less. In the end, we all just love our dogs and I'm ok with that. I will leave the "fight" for others, I just want to play with my dogs.