Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[NCStarkey]

Hello again,

 

My point is you are not going to convince any sport or conformation or flyball or frisbee breeders to change the name of the dog they're breeding, hence my suggestion for working breeders to change the name if they truly want to disassociate their dogs from the others.

 

The time for a breed name change was when the Border Collie was fully recognized by the ACK, and that opportunity was lost. However, regardless of whether a new name is given to the conformation bred, sport bred or pet bred Border Collies, those of us involved with working Border Collies can clearly tell the difference.

 

Regards,

nancy

 

PS: "sport or conformation or flyball or frisbee breeders".... I am without words to describe my feelings about this.

[Tea]

I do not believe in breeding the dogs for anything other than work. And frankly......I am as confused by the AKC non-polite attitude to hijack the Border collies name as I am by the conversations here?

 

 

In My Father's parlance

 

 

 

'Whatz da matta wit you guys?'

 

 

 

Anway I gotta go back to work now.

[Rave]

Perhaps you believe this to be true, Rave, but your tone sure says otherwise. lol.

 

Oh? Did I not use enough winky smileys? I'm pretty sure I know what I'm thinking (last I checked) and also pretty sure "tone" does not convey well (one way or the other) electronically.

[rushdoggie]

Thank you to Julie, Mark, Eileen, Laura, and others who are willing to be heard on the side of the working Border Collie and the underlying philosophy of the USBCC and these boards. The working Border Collie is the basis for what we all (here) do with our dogs, and deserves that respect - and so do those who strive to maintain, improve, and breed quality dogs that can work (and can do other things brilliantly).

 

And (as I don my flame retardant suit) I don't think anyone in this debate has said anything that "disrespected" the working Border Collie.

 

And:

"And refrain from being offended when the folks who adhere to the underlying philosophy of this forum just can't get all excited about a problem (and especially a non-life-threatening one) that affects dogs bred on the basis of a different philosophy?"

I don't think anyone here was offended because you "didn't get excited" about the ETS thing.

 

There is a subtle underlying "attitude" towards sports people on this board, you don't have to look hard. I understand that sometimes people get frustrated because people don't get your POV, but an in general attitude of disdain towards 'sports people' won't win you convets to your way of thinking.

 

Anyone but me catch this blurb on LM's website?

 

I was awed by their intelligence and eagerness to please. So, I set out to locate breeders. One of the individuals I contacted for info was Donald McCaig (who wrote Nops Trials and was active in herding). He told me I was not suited for a BC and that he would not recommend a breeder….

 

Is it any wonder that sports people tend to isolate themselves from working BC people? I mean, theres people on this bord who get offended if I were to shortcut Border Collie by saying "BC" because if I do that I am embracing the AKC culture. And heaven forbid I use the word "herding." I'm sorry Mark but saying that a Border Collie isn't a Border Collie because you don't approve of its breeding is the kind of thing that turns off people who might other wise spend time here and learn more. Its insulting.

 

I get and agree with the philosophy here. I belive that most everyone who posts here regularly has a lot to teach me which is partly why I stay. I do get kind of tired of the "sports people are ruining the breed" mantra though. Many of us are not.

[Mark Billadeau]

I'm sorry Mark but saying that a Border Collie isn't a Border Collie because you don't approve of its breeding is the kind of thing that turns off people who might other wise spend time here and learn more. Its insulting.

First off I think sports are a great activities for owners and dogs on so many levels. I started with agility. I don't have any issues with the activity, my issue is with breeding for success at these other activites. While we started with agility I have always felt that ALL working breeds should be bred for the work (not success at sports or the show ring).

 

Since breeds are defined by what they are bred for (breed standard) and change when the standard changes (look at all the breeds that have changed as what was winning in the breed ring changed) why should I stay silent as I see the breed standard being changed away from the work for which Border Collies have been bred (the breed standard)?

 

Just because it looks like a Border Collie doesn't automatically mean it is one (or at least not worthy of being bred), unless you're willing to accept that the breed standard for Border Collie is based upon how it looks (i.e. conformation).

 

Do you believe the breed standard for Border Collies is how it looks (conformation) or working livestock?

 

I too get tired. I get tired of owners confusing our attitudes on breeding with our attitudes on the activities they do with their dogs.

[Laurae]

I think the frustration for working folks might lie in the contradiction some of us see in the posts of some of the sport people, who often seem to say, "oh, I totally agree with what this board is all about, but I'm going to get all defensive when you suggest agility breeders are making poor decisions for the long-term health and guardianship of the breed. And if you don't like it, you guys need to be the ones who change."

[Sue R]

I belive that most everyone who posts here regularly has a lot to teach me which is partly why I stay. I do get kind of tired of the "sports people are ruining the breed" mantra though. Many of us are not.

The mantra has always been that those who *breed for something other than the work*, whether it be sports, conformation, and/or pets, or just plain poor breeding choices, are those who pose a threat to the future of the Border Collie - because they are breeding for things other than the working ability (and the long list of traits that comprise that) that makes Border Collies what they are.

 

People who share a bond, activities, and joy with their dogs are not the threat and are not accused of ruining the breed - unless they, too, advocate or support breeding for something other than the work.

[Sue R]

^^^What Mark and Laura said so simply and elegantly while I was struggling over my reply.

[Journey]

Anyone but me catch this blurb on LM's website?

 

 

There's more there that maybe you overlooked. Seems maybe Donald was right, if you look at the peds. of her dogs they are half show lines.

[juliepoudrier]

Maybe Donald will find the fortitude to wade through this thread (assuming he even notices it) and give his side to that story. It's entirely possible that he was just taking a stand in protecting the working bred dog from heading down the slippery slope of being bred for other things, because we all know that if someone has a dog that is exceptional at some other activity, it's very likely going to be bred, and off we go. He played a big part of the effort to forestall AKC recognition, so it's not really surprising that he would not be inclined to sell dogs to some other activity. But sure, let's blame him for the fact that sport collies are being bred left and right. Seriously, does anyone really think that if LM had gotten a dog from Donald (or someone recommended by him) that she'd now be more interested in getting dogs from working breeders vs. sport breeders? Has *she* said this? If not, then it's just plucking something from her site to use as justification for blaming all ills on the working breeders.

 

And really, I was thinking yesterday that it was about time for this thread to devolve into the "you don't want us to have border collies," like these threads always do.

 

Rushdoggie,

My comments re: ETS were directly related to the number of posts here decrying the fact that some of us don't see ETS as an issue worthy of research. A good part of this thread has been made up of such posts. I'd say that all the "don't you think LM already thought of that?" "I'm sure she's already considered all those ideas and found them lacking" posts, not to mention the posts about how agility is just as important as stockwork, and "if someone wants to pay for it, why do you care" posts do indicate a level of pique among the sport folks when it comes to the stockworking people's attitude toward ETS.

 

J.

[rushdoggie]

 

Do you believe the breed standard for Border Collies is how it looks (conformation) or working livestock?

 

Its not about "what I believe the breed standard should be" and more about if you feel a dog is a good example of the breed standard does it mean that its not a member of that breed.

 

My 6 year old Papillon I got from rescue who was bred by a questionable Missouri puppymill could be defined as a poor example of a Papillon, but shes still a Papillon. If I am proud to have my sweet little girl and think shes pretty awesome (which she is) and you come along and say, "well, but shes some hybrid and certainly NOT a Papillon" that is a little insulting.

 

There's more there that maybe you overlooked. Seems maybe Donald was right, if you look at the peds. of her dogs they are half show lines.

 

So that makes her incapable of owning a Border Collie and being a good owner? I certainly do not know the whole story, I don't know Linda M. personally, nor do I know Donald except as a member of this board, but if I talked to a "working dog" person who said I would be an unfit home for a Border Collie (and I mean me, specifically, a person with skills and knowlege about owning dogs and an interest in learning more) I would probably be a little butt-hurt too. And I certainly wouldn't have a great impression on the "working dog" community.

 

FWIW: I don't know Linda but I have had occasion to visit with dogs she owned on a few occasions (they were being cared for by someone who was a friend when she was out of the counrtry competing at a world agility event at whose house I was visiting) and they were lovely, well-trained, friendly happy dogs. She is clearly a great "dog mom" and has no problem handling a home with multiple Border Collies.

 

But sure, let's blame him for the fact that sport collies are being bred left and right.

 

C'mon, thats a strawman argument, Julie. Thats way far from the point I was making.

 

Seriously, does anyone really think that if LM had gotten a dog from Donald (or someone recommended by him) that she'd now be more interested in getting dogs from working breeders vs. sport breeders? Has *she* said this? If not, then it's just plucking something from her site to use as justification for blaming all ills on the working breeders.

 

Again, the straw is laying thick. I have no way of knowing what the outcome would have been. I don't believe I "blamed all ills on working breeders" ANYWHERE in this thread. You guys get tired of us sayng we feel a little looked down on here? We get tired of hearing about how we blame stuff on working breeders.

 

My point, which seems to have whoooosh-ed on by, is when you call someones dog "not a Border Collie" or tell them they are unfit to own a Border Collie (when she was clearly not), theres not a huge surprise that they don't spend a lot of time listening to your other views. I have myself been "talked down to" and roundabout insulted by a few "working dog" people, but because I had known some great working dog people I didn't get turned off and I learned and changed my POV considerably. Flies, honey, etc.

 

Rushdoggie,

My comments re: ETS were directly related to the number of posts here decrying the fact that some of us don't see ETS as an issue worthy of research. A good part of this thread has been made up of such posts. I'd say that all the "don't you think LM already thought of that?" "I'm sure she's already considered all those ideas and found them lacking" posts, not to mention the posts about how agility is just as important as stockwork, and "if someone wants to pay for it, why do you care" posts do indicate a level of pique among the sport folks when it comes to the stockworking people's attitude toward ETS.

 

Fair enough.

[MaryP]

I don't know anything about ETS and had never heard of it before it appeared on this board the first time (whenever that was). Then, I forgot all about it until it appeared on here again. ISTM, thinking about it logically, that it would be more of a behavioral issue than a genetic "defect." And behaviors can often be tough to "train out" of a dog, which might make it seem like it's not a training issue. Of course, behaviors have genetic components, too, but they are all tied up in other things and I think it would be difficult [impossible] to attribute one behavior, such as reaction to an agility jump, to one genetic component or components.

 

I compete in agility and my dog has jumping issues, but it has nothing to do with his ability to jump; it has to do with his personality. If he is too hyped up (what I refer to as, "trial head") and not really thinking straight, he knocks down bars. It's because he is not paying attention to what he is doing; or just poor handling on my part (never! ). This especially happens when he is trying to go really fast. His jumps flatten out and his timing gets messed up. I'm not sure if this would be considered ETS or just flat jumping. I just call it lead-ass syndrome (LAS).

 

I've seen dogs, mostly bc's and shelties, that tend to have problems with knocking bars. Many of the bc's that I've seen with this problem seem to be trying to go really fast and they jump flat, wide, and have bad timing (ETS?, I dunno). I wonder if the dogs that initially jumped well and then later developed a problem did so because in the beginning, they didn't fully understand the game. So, they were paying more attention to what they were doing. Then, as they began to understand the game, they started to get sloppy because they were just trying to get through the course quickly and their brains were on overdrive. The fact that the problem seems to show up in related dogs could just be because related dogs can tend to have similar behaviors/personalities. But, who knows? I'm just thinking out loud, I guess.

[Shetlander]

There's more there that maybe you overlooked. Seems maybe Donald was right, if you look at the peds. of her dogs they are half show lines.

 

I'd think the possible rightness of telling her she was wrong for the breed would depend on when she had the conversation with Donald. Was it recently, after years of owning and breeding dogs she refers to as Border Collies? Or was it when she first decided she wanted a Border Collie?

 

Because telling people their sports bred dogs are not real Border Collies and/or they aren't suited to real Border Collies is hardly going to make them seek to purchase only working bred pups. Maybe for the majority of sports people, nothing would persuade them to embrace these boards' philosophy and that is reason enough for working people not to bother trying.

[Root Beer]

I think the frustration for working folks might lie in the contradiction some of us see in the posts of some of the sport people, who often seem to say, "oh, I totally agree with what this board is all about, but I'm going to get all defensive when you suggest agility breeders are making poor decisions for the long-term health and guardianship of the breed. And if you don't like it, you guys need to be the ones who change."

 

I can't speak for any of the other sport people, but personally I don't get offended by the position that Agility breeders are making poor decisions for the long-term health and guardianship of the breed.

 

If you don't think ETS is an issue that should be studied, that's an opinion that you are entitled to. That doesn't mean that everyone else is going to fall in line and agree, though. And if you think that those who feel that it is an issue worthy of study are somehow "for breeding for Agility", that is what it is. But don't expect those who actually do feel that it is an issue worthy of study to agree with your personal assessment of their point of view. And if you think that posters are disrespectful simply because they disagree, that happens. But that isn't going to change their stance on the issue.

 

Sport people care about dog sports. Participation in dog sports is important to them. They are going to take issues that affect dog sports seriously. They aren't going to agree with those who tell them that they are just games, nobody's life depends on them, and therefore issues that affect dog sports are of no importance, so they should stop taking those issues seriously.

 

None of that is antithetical to Border Collies being bred for work. It's a different dog culture, and it is one that many people who love the Border Collie are a part of.

 

I have long held the opinion that Border Collie people in the dog sport world and stockdog people could find common ground and develop mutual understanding (even while holding different positions on some things). The offense taken toward (not by) the dog sport folks in this thread has made me doubt - really for the first time - that such understanding can actually be found. I think that's a shame because I think that Border Collie owners in both dog cultures have a lot to offer one another.

 

When it comes to ETS, I don't see how that should affect working Border Collie breeders at all. It is not something that has anything whatsoever for stockwork or breeding for it. If someone wants to purchase a Border Collie from a working breeder for sport purposes, he or she should be able to understand that ETS is not taken into consideration when breeding for work. We're grown ups - we can actually understand that. The buyer then makes a decision - to take a chance on the working bred dog or go to a breeder who screens for ETS. And by that decision the person gets what he or she gets and lives with the ramifications.

 

Now here's an interesting scenario. Suppose a test is developed for ETS and Border Collies who are bred only for work are tested and those who have been bred for Agility are also tested. Suppose the gene is found only, or predominantly, in the sport bred Border Collies. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if that happened, actually.

 

Know what? That proves that you were right all along and that breeding for Agility is not good. Now the working bred Border Collie stands out as something better. Why would any of you object to that? Because the gene pool of the dogs that you consider to have been bred for the wrong purpose to begin with is now going to be limited?

 

Do those of you who are in the stockdog world realize that nobody in the dogsport world thinks that you should change your breeding practices?

 

Yes, there are a lot of Border Collies in Agility, from pretty much every source imaginable - working breeders, sport breeders, conformation breeders, backyard breeders, rescues of unknown origin, and among those are well bred Border Collies, poorly bred Border Collies, Border Collies from responsible breeders, Border Collies from irresponsible breeders, and everything in between. So any kind of study done in the context of Agility is going to include an extensive study of Border Collies - from all of those sources. Results may well have ramifications for one type of breeder or another. But those studies are going to be done. If that results in a greater divide between working bred Border Collie owners and sport bred Border Collie owners, then it results in a greater divide. If that doesn't happen over ETS, it will be something else.

[juliepoudrier]

I've seen dogs, mostly bc's and shelties, that tend to have problems with knocking bars. Many of the bc's that I've seen with this problem seem to be trying to go really fast and they jump flat, wide, and have bad timing (ETS?, I dunno). I wonder if the dogs that initially jumped well and then later developed a problem did so because in the beginning, they didn't fully understand the game. So, they were paying more attention to what they were doing. Then, as they began to understand the game, they started to get sloppy because they were just trying to get through the course quickly and their brains were on overdrive. The fact that the problem seems to show up in related dogs could just be because related dogs can tend to have similar behaviors/personalities. But, who knows? I'm just thinking out loud, I guess.

Thanks for mentioning this again, though this is exactly the sort of comment that elicitied the "I really think LM has already considered and dismissed that (for whatever reason)" type posts. This explanation makes perfect sense to me, which is why I (and others) kept stressing the belief that the problem might be a mental issue (super speedy dog turning on the speed and turning off the brain, for whatever reason) as opposed to a genetic one.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

I'd think the possible rightness of telling her she was wrong for the breed would depend on when she had the conversation with Donald.

 

I can only say this about Donald McCaig. Spending time with him last year at Nationals and at my class was a delight. He was hospitable, forthcoming, and interested in everything that we discussed. He knows I am a reinforcement based trainer who does Agility and Freestyle with my Border Collies and he was nothing but supportive.

[Rave]

I've seen dogs, mostly bc's and shelties, that tend to have problems with knocking bars. Many of the bc's that I've seen with this problem seem to be trying to go really fast and they jump flat, wide, and have bad timing (ETS?, I dunno). I wonder if the dogs that initially jumped well and then later developed a problem did so because in the beginning, they didn't fully understand the game. So, they were paying more attention to what they were doing. Then, as they began to understand the game, they started to get sloppy because they were just trying to get through the course quickly and their brains were on overdrive. The fact that the problem seems to show up in related dogs could just be because related dogs can tend to have similar behaviors/personalities. But, who knows? I'm just thinking out loud, I guess.

 

The jumping problems referred to with respect to possible ETS are not as you describe. I've seen several dogs who supposedly have ETS, they stutter step and hesitate before the jump. It is VERY noticeable as something being "wrong" and not just a crazy, over-the-top, hothead BC jumping wildly. Most of these dogs were initially written off as having confidence issues, vision problems, etc... I know that was my first reaction as well. Is there a common underlying cause? That's what those with dogs with this are trying to figure out.

 

Take a look at this video:

http://awesomepaws.us/videos/potion_nov07_jumpers_stutter.wmv

[Shetlander]

Thanks for mentioning this again, though this is exactly the sort of comment that elicitied the "I really think LM has already considered and dismissed that (for whatever reason)" type posts.

 

Well, I've been out of agility for a few years but Mecklenberg lives, studies and breathes the sport, is a vet and has (or used to be --- as I said, I've been out of the sport for a while) a consistent winner at the highest levels which only a handful of competitors can pull off. Based on knowing that about her and having read many of her articles, I would tend to believe she had not only considered but believed the jumping issues were mental/training/physical before arriving at maybe it is something genetic.

 

But until this thread I wasn't even aware of ETS, so that is just my guess.

[Eileen Stein]

Its not about "what I believe the breed standard should be" and more about if you feel a dog is a good example of the breed standard does it mean that its not a member of that breed.

 

I'm sorry to have seen this thread detour into a familiar swamp, and very reluctant to wade in after it, but I feel a need to respond to this out of concern that you've misunderstood what was said.

 

This is how I see it, which is in line with the point Mark was trying to make. To a geneticist, a breed is a population of animals whose breeding is controlled and outcrossing limited, so that genetic selection can be exercised on it to produce a certain result. The result toward which the breeders are aiming is the breed standard. It may be written or unwritten, it may be precise or somewhat general, but it has to be a common purpose, because a lot of breeders going in different directions will never produce any sort of directed selection.

 

The border collie breed was developed to be a useful partner in the management of livestock. That has been the breed standard -- the ideal toward which breeders were striving. Dogs were produced who are good examples of the breed standard and dogs were produced who are poor examples of the breed standard. But both are logically classified as border collies, because they were bred toward the border collie standard.

 

But suppose you start breeding dogs to a different standard -- a conformation standard, let's say. You no longer care how they work, you care how well they meet a written appearance standard and how they look and move in the breed ring. This type of breeding will change the breed in a fundamental way, and after a certain length of time it will in actual fact no longer be the same breed. You can call it by the same name, but that doesn't change the fact that it has become a different breed, measured by a different standard. This happened to working sheepdogs once before, when the show Collie was developed from the working collie. There came a time in this process when a difference in name was adopted to avoid the confusion of having what had become two breeds going by the same name, but long before the name change they had in fact become two different breeds. And as with show Collies today, there can be good examples of the breed and bad examples of the breed, but they are both Collies, because they were bred to the show Collie standard.

 

Can you see the parallels with what we are discussing here? The border collies who are being bred by agility breeders are being bred to a different standard. They too don't care about stock working ability; they care about those qualities which are tested by agility trials. When agility breeders advocate eliminating dogs from breeding because of a specific weakness on an agility course which they suspect may be genetic, that is a particularly arresting illustration of this divergence. They are breeding for a different goal, and will thereby be producing a different dog -- a dog it makes little sense to call a border collie. It's not that they are a poor example of the border collie breed standard, it's that they are bred to a different standard altogether. That's the point we are trying to make. To say that breeding for agility is resulting in the creation of a different breed is not meant as an insult. It's just a statement of fact.

[Root Beer]

Based on knowing that about her and having read many of her articles, I would tend to believe she had not only considered but believed the jumping issues were mental/training/physical before arriving at maybe it is something genetic.

 

That is correct. At least according to what she has written, and I don't believe she would have written such a thing if it were untrue.

 

In fact, knowing the Agility world as I do, chances are very good that she was probably highly skeptical of the notion that it was not a mental/training/physical issue for quite some time. Pretty much everything is considered to be the fault of the handler in mainstream Agility culture. If there's a problem it's because of training, handling, what the handler is thinking, the handler's emotions, what the handler had for dinner . . . you name it! Unless it is a structural issue, injury, illness, or identifiable physical issue. To suggest otherwise will be received by most about as well as suggesting that Border Collies should be bred for color would be here.

 

That's why the idea that Linda Mecklenburg and her colleagues may have overlooked the possibility that ETS is a mental/training/physical issue, or anything else that any of us here could think of, strikes me as nearly impossible. Could there be a mental/training/physical issue in play that is somehow undetectable at this point? Sure. Did they just fail to explore every possible known way of determining that it is not a mental/training/physical issue? No way. Linda Mecklenburg would not have gone out on such a limb and put her reputation at stake over it without having done so first. That doesn't mean she's right about it being something genetic. It just means she has done a lot of work with this, with which most of us are not familiar firsthand, and that she hasn't left the obvious undone.

[MaryP]

That's why the idea that Linda Mecklenburg and her colleagues may have overlooked the possibility that ETS is a mental/training/physical issue, or anything else that any of us here could think of, strikes me as nearly impossible.

 

But, why can't it just be a "style" of jumping? Poor style, maybe. But, style, nonetheless. My handwriting is very similar to my next oldest sister. It's eerie, really, and neither one of us would ever win a penmanship competition. Two of my other sisters have very nice (and similar) penmanship. But, I don't for a minute believe that there is a penmanship gene that could be isolated with a genetic study. We just probably have some similar tendencies (the way we move, our behaviors, facial expressions we make, etc.) because we are related.

[rushdoggie]

I'm sorry to have seen this thread detour into a familiar swamp, and very reluctant to wade in after it, but I feel a need to respond to this out of concern that you've misunderstood what was said...

 

 

...Can you see the parallels with what we are discussing here? The border collies who are being bred by agility breeders are being bred to a different standard. They too don't care about stock working ability; they care about those qualities which are tested by agility trials. When agility breeders advocate eliminating dogs from breeding because of a specific weakness on an agility course which they suspect may be genetic, that is a particularly arresting illustration of this divergence. They are breeding for a different goal, and will thereby be producing a different dog -- a dog it makes little sense to call a border collie. It's not that they are a poor example of the border collie breed standard, it's that they are bred to a different standard altogether. That's the point we are trying to make. To say that breeding for agility is resulting in the creation of a different breed is not meant as an insult. It's just a statement of fact.

 

Thank you for taking the time to write that, but I understand perfectly what Mark meant. And, for the record, for the most part I agree with him. But what said Mark said was:

 

Bred for sports is not a Border Collie (is just another designer breed)

 

which he may not have meant as insulting but really, it kind of is. Whats thegeneral consensus among dog people when you say "designer breed?"

 

If you say this to a person who has a "sporter collie" they are going to feel a little insulted. Flies, honey, etc.

 

Now here's an interesting scenario. Suppose a test is developed for ETS and Border Collies who are bred only for work are tested and those who have been bred for Agility are also tested. Suppose the gene is found only, or predominantly, in the sport bred Border Collies. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if that happened, actually.

 

I mentioned that earlier in this thread. Wouldn't surprise me either.

[rushdoggie]

But, why can't it just be a "style" of jumping? Poor style, maybe. But, style, nonetheless. My handwriting is very similar to my next oldest sister. It's eerie, really, and neither one of us would ever win a penmanship competition. Two of my other sisters have very nice (and similar) penmanship. But, I don't for a minute believe that there is a penmanship gene that could be isolated with a genetic study. We just probably have some similar tendencies (the way we move, our behaviors, facial expressions we make, etc.) because we are related.

 

I think the reason that some believe this may be a physical issue (an underlying disease process likely related to vision) is the fact they were starting out jumping well and in many cases are handled by skilled handlers who have taught remedial jumping work.

 

In agility the light conditions and speed affect the dog's ability to decide when to collect and where to take off from. Its a more complicated process than say just jumping in or out of a car. Having good vision as far as the distance from the jump and the depth of the jump is essential to the dog being able to negotiate the jump. If they can do it, but then suddenly can't do it, that suggests something different than just a similarility in movement.

[Little Bo Boop]

Wow, wading through 9 pages of this, amazing...I have to say that IMHO ETS is about the most ludacris thing I've heard in a long time. Do you suppose that's the first thing they think of, a genetic defect, when a pro golfer, say a Tiger Woods or a Phil Michleson, slices or hooks a drive, pushes or pulls a birdie putt? I mean these guys are pros, and in some cases conisidered phenoms, they have their swings down pat, correct? So when they make a mishit it's got to be a some sort of genetic defect??? No, more than likely it's one of two things, mental glitch (enter high $$$$ swing coaches and/or gurus), or it's a physical problem, back, knee, wrist, elbow....

How and/or why these aglility folks would make the leap to a genetic predisposition is beyond me. If this condition manifested itself across the board, in all Border Collies, I notice some type of depth perception problem in one or more of my dogs or other handlers dogs (stockdogs) then I might buy it...but it only shows up in agility dogs??? Wouldn't common sense dicate that it's more likely to be some kind physical ailment, soreness etc... or in my mind, something mental, a anticipatory issue, in conjunction with the Border Collies (espcially these sport collies) tendencey to be a little amped.

I'm assuming that with this way of thinking, that I can expect genetic markers in the near future to predict whether or not a Border Collie will be a gripper, a crosser Overer ;-) will have a wide or tight outrun? Knowing all that would sure save a lot of folks a lot of money and heartache...

As others have said, I'd much prefer out $$$$ be spent on Cancer, epilepsy, noise Phobias...Early Take Off syndrome? Just makes ya want to shake your head....

 

Betty

[Kate@JIm]

The jumping problems referred to with respect to possible ETS are not as you describe. I've seen several dogs who supposedly have ETS, they stutter step and hesitate before the jump. It is VERY noticeable as something being "wrong" and not just a crazy, over-the-top, hothead BC jumping wildly. Most of these dogs were initially written off as having confidence issues, vision problems, etc... I know that was my first reaction as well. Is there a common underlying cause? That's what those with dogs with this are trying to figure out.

 

Take a look at this video:

http://awesomepaws.us/videos/potion_nov07_jumpers_stutter.wmv

 

I competed way back in the 80's early 90's and I had a border collie jump just like the video. She didn't have a health or genetic problem, she was just a poor jumper. She was always thinking what was coming next, not focusing on what she was doing, was a deep thinker. I'm relieved to know she had ETS!

 

She earned her OTCH by the way, jumping just like the video and we had a blast!