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This woman and I have had words in the past about working instinct, as this 'breeder' believes it's trained, not bred into a dog.

 

RDM brought this up and I was just thinking about it relating to Kristine in particular. I was wondering how many that have seen the great dogs work but do not realize that it's not just simply training, atleast not for the special ones.

 

 

I had a woman come down from Minnesota a few weeks back that competes in Agility and herds in AKC, ASCA and AHBA events, also gives lessons. I took some of my young pups out that were just turning onto livestock (less then 16 weeks old), she about fell over. All the stuff that she had believed needed to be trained, balance, rate, pace, desire to control, feel.. was right there in front of her in one little 16 week old pup. Yeah there will still be training hurdles, but the issues will be different then when dealing with a dog that is lacking in natural abiilty or does not have the raw talent.

 

 

Unfortunately I have a feeling that there are many that have never seen a truely talented young dog, they think they have, but based on what they are buying and what type of dogs they are securing pups from I don't think they have. But then again maybe I haven't and just think I have. All I know is that I have had the opportunity to work with a few, what I call special dogs, that didn't need to be shown the proper methods as how to relate and handle livestock.

 

 

No disrespect to anyone but this carries over to other threads and those that say specifically what makes the border collie different from other dogs. In so many cases they are correct but I don't think they see the entire picture, or it is not getting relayed, the reason the dogs can execute those specific manuvers, the natural outrun and the natural gather is because they are wired to naturally understand how to relate, handle and control livestock. The real good ones have a sense of how to settle and calm and what little thing they can do that will create a sense of urgency without causing mass cauos.

 

 

Some things just can't be taught, it's inate, natural and intensified and kept in balance via intensive selection. Just one cross placing priority on something totally unrelated to the working skillset and you backslide.

 

The best way I have heard it described is that we are fighting nature, what we have in our border collies is not a natural dog as mother nature intended it, we believe it is, but it is the result of intensive breeding selection with a specific purpose in mind. If we select for a new purpose those traits that have been intensified will dull down to a natural state or to what ever state is needed for the dogs survival.

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The more I work with these dogs the greater impact I feel genetics has on the ability of the dog. I was at about 50/50; I now believe it's more than 75% genetics. There are so many things you just can't teach a dog. How does one teach a dog to slightly turn its head away from a sheep to get one sheep in the flock to alter its direction slightly or by turning its head it will release enough pressure that sheep stalled at the mouth of a chute will turn and go into the chute? How do you teach a dog that in order to move a flock of sheep across a stream it needs to go to the front of the flock (between most of the flock and the stream) to influence the lead sheep to cross the stream (without reversing the direction of the whole flock) and then return to behind the flock? To the point of this discussion, how do you get and maintain these skills (beneficial livestock working skills) in the breed by breeding for sport (or anything other than livestock work)?

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I know I've mentioned this before, but for a majority of herding breeds for which conformation came first and only now are breeders trying to put the work back in, as it were, natural just isn't there. I've had long, tortured discussions with these folks about what it means to say a "natural dog" (WRT to stockwork). It finally occurred to me (through an unrelated conversation on that same list) that the reason we never could understand one another was because I was coming from a place where the natural ability to work to a high standard still exists in the breed, and the other person was coming from a place where everything essentially had to be taught--natural work no longer existed in the breed. Of course the whole idea that you can just "put it back in" (assuming you finally admit that it is indeed gone) is also a holdover from the dog fancy.

 

In any case, I think it's probably not possible to really convey the seriousness of the breeding and population genetics issue to the average dog-savvy person, let alone JQP. Some of the examples given here make that very clear.

 

As for the flies/honey thing, which also comes up every time a thread like this (and similar topics) comes along, I'm afraid that honeyed speech will make no more of an impression than blunt speech. Again, just look at stories like Sheena's. If your friends and close associates (those with whom you should be able to not have to sugar coat) don't get it, the rest of the world isn't likely to either. It's just a fact of human nature. I want what I want, and the big picture doesn't matter to me because it doesn't affect me personally. That attitude goes way beyond dogs and dog breeding, as I'm sure we all are aware.

 

J.

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The more I work with these dogs the greater impact I feel genetics has on the ability of the dog. I was at about 50/50; I now believe it's more than 75% genetics

Yes. The longer I work with these dogs, the more I am convinced that genetics is probably about 90+%,

A

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The more I work with these dogs the greater impact I feel genetics has on the ability of the dog. I was at about 50/50; I now believe it's more than 75% genetics. There are so many things you just can't teach a dog. How does one teach a dog to slightly turn its head away from a sheep to get one sheep in the flock to alter its direction slightly or by turning its head it will release enough pressure that sheep stalled at the mouth of a chute will turn and go into the chute? How do you teach a dog that in order to move a flock of sheep across a stream it needs to go to the front of the flock (between most of the flock and the stream) to influence the lead sheep to cross the stream (without reversing the direction of the whole flock) and then return to behind the flock? To the point of this discussion, how do you get and maintain these skills (beneficial livestock working skills) in the breed by breeding for sport (or anything other than livestock work)?

 

AMEN!

 

I have a dog here now I trained up and he can do everything (in the sense of outrun,drive,shed,sorting,look back, etc). I will never breed him ... because it took so LONG and so much effort to get everything out of him. He fought me (and still does) every step of the way. I always saw talent in him but he would not/could not relax enough to let it flow - he's maturing and it's coming. BUT I don't want to sell pups that someone has to fight with every time they go out. There are better dogs out there to breed to. So, YES he's a working dog with a lot of ability but not a BREEDING working dog.

 

"AKC people" see their "pup" go around dog broke sheep think wow he HAS it ... and off to bragging and breeding we go.

 

TRUE working genius is a delicate balance of all the work required ... and is so very, very difficult to breed for - even when you try to breed for pure working ability ... what do you get when you don't even try?

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I was at about 50/50; I now believe it's more than 75% genetics.

 

Mark, as you percentage attributed to genetics goes up the number of talented and gifted dogs you identify or like goes down. You start seeing through the training, seeing the dog that didn't lean at the right time, or didn't hold the sheep/cows together as he flanked but rather allowed them to float or move apart. Then there are the dogs the don't have a inate sense of a good place to stop and have to be told, typically a little to late.

 

There are dogs that need great handlers to be great and others great dogs that are capable of making handlers look great.

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As an add-on to Kristine's question (since we're about at that point in this thread anyway), how many of you who get that breeding for agility will change the breed in a significant way try to discuss this with your sporting friends? After all, you are in a much better position to understand their perspective, so why not try to be an agent of change? Too much trouble? Unable to push effectively against the ever-increasing tide?

 

I do, and I have tried to be an agent of change in my VERY small circle of sport friends. Do I feel like little ol' me is unable to push effectively against the tide, yes, but it doesn't stop me from trying. Honestly, I suggest rescue more often, but sadly, most sport people I know around here don't want rescues. :( I've mentioned it before that I feel I helped steer one friend to a working bred dog when she was looking for a pup a few years ago. Yet on the other hand, earlier this year, I was unable to steer several friends away from buying conformation bred dogs. Even after telling one of them specifically about the upcoming litter my trainer was planning. *sigh*

 

How many of you who are seriously in to sports and "get it" make an effort to find a working bred pup vs. a sport bred pup?

 

If I were ever to buy a dog, I would 100%, without a doubt, buy a working bred pup. In fact, I had to talk myself down from the ledge over the litter I just mentioned, that my trainer was breeding. lol Seriously, though, I don't ever see myself buying a dog, so it's a moot point.

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If someone buys their dog from a pet store which gets the pups from a puppy mill, should we not tell them their pet is a puppy mill dog for fear of hurting their feelings?

 

If it is not someone that I know, I would not say such a thing. It's rude. And all it is going to do is alienate that person and any hope of actually discussing pet store dogs, and why I don't even patronize pet stores that sell them, is out the window. All that really is going to accomplish is hurt feelings. It is not likely to contribute to any dog's welfare.

 

If it is someone that I know well, with whom I have a rapport and trust, I might. It just depends. There is a "what's done is done" aspect to the situation. On the other hand, if there is a reason to try to get the point across (say, the person is considering getting another pet store dog), I might approach the topic from an angle that would lead into the conversation naturally and objectively. Perhaps if the dog were having training issues, that would be a good lead in, for example.

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RDM brought this up and I was just thinking about it relating to Kristine in particular. I was wondering how many that have seen the great dogs work but do not realize that it's not just simply training, atleast not for the special ones.

 

Yes, I actually do happen to know that.

 

Remember, I don't support breeding for Agility, although I get the distinct impression that isn't being clearly understood.

 

I don't classify Border Collies that are bred with other purposes in mind as non-Border Collies. But I do not support the breeding of Border Collies for other purposes. I do understand it might be difficult to see how I can consider a dog to be a Border Collie without necessarily supporting the purpose for which the dog was bred, but for me that is the case. The rescue dogs that I work with serve as a great example. I don't consider them to be non-Border Collies because I don't know for a fact that their parents worked stock. To do so would seem absurd to me. I'd be willing to wager, though, that in many cases I would not think that the breeding of those particular Border Collies is all that great. I know, I know - I am talking about individual dogs again, but the breed is made up of individual dogs. Generalizations made about the breed as a whole are generalizations made about the individual dogs within the breed. To really work, they need to apply to the individual dogs that make up the breed.

 

That does not mean that I am completely ignorant of the fact that what a good stockdog needs is, "not just simply training". I've quoted you there only so I don't misrepresent your words.

 

I could get behind the concept of types of Border Collies as there are types within the other breeds, as long as the names designating those types are respectful both of the dogs and those who own and handle them. For example - Working Border Collie, Sport Border Collie, Rescue Border Collie (if parentage is unknown), Show Border Collie, etc. But to me the idea of two Border Collies producing puppies of a completely different breed just doesn't work any more than the idea of two Border Collies producing kittens or German Shepherds or Fighting Fish. And why not drop the "Border" and label them all as different types of Collies? Because Collies are Lassie Collies. That would be like referring to Aussies as "Shepherds". Everyone would think you meant a GSD. I would consider to be a Show Collie to be a Conformation bred Lassie Collie. And so would those who own that breed of dog (they might not say Lassie, though! :lol: )

 

And I consider making the charge that anyone's Border Collies are "not real" to be a surefire way of completely turning them off to any other point of view on the matter. I know, many don't care about that - that has been clearly expressed in this thread and others. But, if I am not mistaken, some here have expressed desire to educate. For education to happen, people need to be open to listening in the first place, and make it a point not to alienate those that one wishes to educate. Otherwise, education will not happen. For those who do want to educate, I think that is something to seriously consider regarding the "not real Border Collie" idea. Yes you may be faithful to your philosophy in doing so, but you are ensuring that the group of people who agree with the philosophy remains about the size of what it is now, and few new people will actually be educated to your way of thinking.

 

I realize that might hurt some feelings, and if it does I apologize for that. My intention is not to offend or hurt feelings.

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And I consider making the charge that anyone's Border Collies are "not real" to be a surefire way of completely turning them off to any other point of view on the matter. I know, many don't care about that - that has been clearly expressed in this thread and others.

 

I posted this earlier (post #304) in response to rushdoggie's honey/vinegar post, but it initially came through garbled, so I'll post it again here:

 

[Your point is] not ignored. It's not a hard concept to get, and everyone here gets it. Okay, I won't make assumptions, I'll ask: Does anyone here disagree that it's important, when seeking to persuade people of your point of view, to try to be tactful and avoid giving people the impression that you are insulting them or their dogs? Anyone?

 

Even people here whom you find offensive understand and agree with your point. Either they aren't very good at being tactful, or they feel that there are certain facts they need to state to explain their position, even at the risk that some more sensitive listeners will be offended at hearing those facts. But they get your point.

 

So I don't accept your statement that many here don't care about turning their listeners off. We all care. None of us wants to turn our listeners off. But if my point is that border collies that are bred to a different standard than the one that shaped the breed necessarily become a different breed, how do I "educate" someone to that fact without saying that border collies who are bred to a different standard than the one that shaped the breed necessarily become a different breed? I may be met by many with "I don't want to hear that, you're saying my dog isn't a real border collie, that hurts my feelings," but it would be utterly pointless for me to respond with, "Okay, then I won't say that anymore, I'll say something different." And I will still hope that some people, perhaps only a few, will be willing to consider a fact they had never thought of before.

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I don't consider them to be non-Border Collies because I don't know for a fact that their parents worked stock. To do so would seem absurd to me. I'd be willing to wager, though, that in many cases I would not think that the breeding of those particular Border Collies is all that great.

 

They will never be bred so it's a "non-issue". That's the main theme ... don't breed if they aren't working quality. If someone gets in touch with me and says I want a Border Collie - don't want to work it - I send them towards rescue first.

 

One of my main issues with breeding Sport Collies (good name :@) is that they take what's BEST about the Border Collie (that came from generations of careful breeding) and use it for THEIR "wants and needs". They don't "breed for the breed" - they breed for themselves and their "games". Do you see why we get so upset? That's why I used the example of my dog that won't be bred ... it's NOT good for "THE BREED". Yet WE are the ones that are suppose to educate, inform, enlighten, while they are the ones takeing away something VERY precious (working ability).

 

Do I think they love THEIR dog ... sure do! Do they take good care of THEIR dog ... I'm sure they do. BUT Do I think they respect the BREED ... nope.

 

 

 

I realize that might hurt some feelings, and if it does I apologize for that. My intention is not to offend or hurt feelings.

 

I'm not offended nor have hurt feelings and I appreciate the fact that you cared enough to worry about it. Hopefully you will be able to convince a few in your sphere of influence.

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So, in addition to Robin's point that sport people appear to be focusing on individual dogs while working folks are focusing on the breed as a whole, another disconnect seems to be that sport people, even many on these boards, understand and agree that breeding for a different standard is bad for the border collie as we know it, but they don't understand or agree that breeding for a different standard over time results in another breed entirely.

 

And they just plain like the name of the border collie (and all the associated connotations gained from the reputations of working-bred border collies), so (while it'll admittedly be co-opted) they won't give it up because this doesn't bother them much.

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So, in addition to Robin's point that sport people appear to be focusing on individual dogs while working folks are focusing on the breed as a whole, another disconnect seems to be that sport people, even many on these boards, understand and agree that breeding for a different standard is bad for the border collie as we know it, but they don't understand or agree that breeding for a different standard over time results in another breed entirely.

 

And they just plain like the name of the border collie (and all the associated connotations gained from the reputations of working-bred border collies), so (while it'll admittedly be co-opted) they won't give it up because this doesn't bother them much.

 

Wow I don't get that at all. All I see is the sports people writing "hey we agree with you, but let me tell you what the other guy is going to respond with, you know the ones not on this board who really could care less about the plight of the working dog because they're happy with their gene pool." I'm pretty sure you can go back 10 years and find posts that I (and others) wrote stating the breed would become 3 distinct breeds/types/whatever you want to call them: working, sport and conformation. And here we are many years later saying the same thing. That's why my initial posts in this thread were, "hey guys, nothing new here." Sure sport breeders may be taking it a step further now, but still the same general principles we've seen for years, and the same discussions about them.

 

Most of what the sports people have been doing here is explaining to you all how outside of these Boards and working BC environments your philosophy may not be well-received or agreed with.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, got a working bred, poorly-bred working and couple sport-bred pups to go play with. B)

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Wow I don't get that at all. All I see is the sports people writing "hey we agree with you, but let me tell you what the other guy is going to respond with, you know the ones not on this board who really could care less about the plight of the working dog because they're happy with their gene pool."

 

Hmm, I thought folks seemed to be saying they agree up to a point, but they would never believe that a dog created from two dogs recognized as border collies could be anything but a border collie. And that show collie and sport collie were not good candidates for renaming non-working-bred border collies because they sounded too much like Lassie collies.

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Seems silly doesn't it, but then again, much of what we argue about on forums like this one is just as silly to the real world who really doesn't give a rats ass. So does that make us the weird ones? :P

Seriously. I beg people to purchase fish from responsible breeders. Birds and other small animals too. It's so worth it.

 

Beta splendens do need at least a bit of spunk, enough to "flare" occasionally, so their trimmings will stay healthy. Shyness can cause reluctance to swim freely and surface for air.

 

Just as with anything though, too much fight and they have stress related issues.

 

Balance is everything. In a working breed as finely tuned as the Border Collie, I do fear there will be even more disappointment waiting for breeders working with this generation pool.

 

Root Beer, you've suggested a couple times that the ETS issue may be something that only exists in the agility bred dogs. I highly doubt it. There simply is not any clear division yet.

 

Whatever it is, I'm sure it has its origins firmly in the working genetics.

 

What if they do find a distinctive marker, and it is anticipatory. This is the same skill which guided my Sam pup to start alerting on my idiopathic disasociative episodes.

 

Having Sam's early warning has allowed me to reduce my meds by half, get back to driving and teaching my kids, and his trained tasks make sure I'm safe in public situations.

 

Eliminate the problem and also eliminate the population of medical alert dogs in the "agility Border Collie" breed? Bummer.

 

I'm grateful for those who remain committed to the true balanced working stockdog.

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It's no different than evolution. Small differences between 2 populations must build up slowly over time before they can be considered different species. It is nearly impossible to point to the intermediate animals and say that they are one species or the other.

 

You can't say after a single generation that they are not Border Collies, just a poor example of the breed. After many generations there have been enough changes, whether on purpose or through passive genetic drift, for them to no longer be the same breed. As far as I am concerned, the show bred Border Collies from Australia are absolutely not Border Collies any more than Collies, English Shepherds or Aussies are.

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Hmm, I thought folks seemed to be saying they agree up to a point, but they would never believe that a dog created from two dogs recognized as border collies could be anything but a border collie. And that show collie and sport collie were not good candidates for renaming non-working-bred border collies because they sounded too much like Lassie collies.

 

Well here's what I said, and I'm reading the same thing from other sports people posting here as well...

 

most of the rest of the world outside of stockwork will not believe that two purebred dogs of one breed will not produce a purebred dog of that same breed in the short term

 

and this, to which there was agreement...

However if working breeders approached sport BC breeders and said hey we want you to change the name of the dog you're breeding, then they would be laughed out of the room. Not because they're hung up on a name, but because they're not the ones who think there's a problem.

 

If by some miracle, the ABCA copyrighted the term "Border Collie" tomorrow and only proven working-bred dogs could be called that, I doubt most sport breeders would have a problem with another name designation, as long as their end product remained the same. (although not being a breeder, I'm making some assumptions here)

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ten years [snip]working, sport, conformation.

 

About twelve or more actually. When did the BCSA add "Herding" programs? I'd date it from that beccause then a breeder could play strictly within a sandbox completely disconnected from commercial livestock production.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, got a working bred, poorly-bred working and couple sport-bred pups to go play with. B)

 

Hmm. I know one sport bred dog. Two girls I know, and one girl you'd need to hide if you still lived in VA 45 min from me. You have forgotten how to count Ms. Engineer. :D;):):lol: <-- hoping that's enough submission and smilies!

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