Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I apologize, I just realized I forgot to copy the link where I saw this posted. Apparently someone is requesting DNA swabs from Border Collies for a genetic study. Any Border Collies for cheek swabs, plus blood samples from dogs affected by:

 

Epilepsy (okay)

Noise phobia (yeah)

Something I forgot (short term memory stinks these days)

Early Takeoff Disorder (or disease maybe?)

 

Early Takeoff Disorder? I am very, very out of the loop apparently. All I can find are a couple of vague references to the same source.

[rushdoggie]

"Early takeoff syndrome describes a jumping problem seen in some agility dogs where they do just that: they take off too early for the jumps. The syndrome ranges from a subtle hitch on the dog’s final stride to severe stuttering."

 

"With ETS, the dogs are physically sound. There seem to be certain breeds of dog and certain lines within those breeds that may be affected. This includes some of the breeds that are known for jumping problems but Shelties and Border Collies can also be affected. I do not know the cause of this problem. I do not believe it is a training issue although as I said a lack of confidence makes the problem worse. It appears to be a problem with vision and/or the dog’s perception of where the bar is in space. Many dogs with this problem have had normal cerf exams and some have even been tested for near and farsightedness (with variable results). To my knowledge, there is no test for depth perception in dogs at this time."

 

link

 

 

They may be looking for a depth perception issue.

[Pippin's person]

I had to look up early takeoff syndrome too. Never heard of it.

 

The third thing was adult onset deafness.

[jdarling]

THREAD WHERE ETS WAS MENTIONED ...

 

VIDEO SHOWING ETS

 

She was one of the first dogs that convinced me that ETS is NOT a training issue. This dog also has relatives that have what is believed to be ETS. After becoming aware of ETS, the owner/breeder of this dog spayed and neutered all of her related dogs in an effort to prevent recurrence, despite the potential for producing top performance prospects.

 

I wonder if they have a DNA test for ETS yet.

[jdarling]

Rushdoggie,

 

I just checked out the link you posted. Somewhere on there ... is this little gem.

 

Increased awareness is the first step. A definitive cause needs to be identified before prevention is possible. Because this problem does appear in certain lines of dogs, I think breeding stock should be evaluated carefully. Most breeders are probably not even aware of this problem and have not been evaluating their dogs for it. In my opinion it is a performance-limiting problem no different from epilepsy or canine hip dysplasia and affected dogs should be removed from the breeding pool until more is known about the cause and treatment of ETS.

(emphasis mine)

 

I don't even know what to say.

 

Jodi

[rushdoggie]

Well;

 

[donning flame retardant suit]

 

If you are breeding for sports (and I am not condoning this, just sayin,' we know there are people including LM that do) and you have a dog who appears to have a non-training issue with being able to clear a jump, this should be taken into consideration as to if he should be bred from. Not doing so would be irresponsible when viewed from that paradigm.

 

How you will ID this with a swab test I dunno...

[Root Beer]

I actually found the discussion about ETS on the Clean Run yahoo list to be extremely interesting. I would highly recommend that anyone who is interested in learning more join that group and read the archived posts on the topic. I think it was just a couple of months ago.

 

When I first heard about this, I poo-poo'ed the idea, but there is a lot more to it than I realized at first. I learned quite a lot from reading other people's perspectives on the problem.

[BCjetta]

I'm curious. If they think its a genetic problem, I wonder if any of these dogs did stock work, whether the issue causing them to jump early would have any impact on working stock or affect how they work.

[Root Beer]

I'm curious. If they think its a genetic problem, I wonder if any of these dogs did stock work, whether the issue causing them to jump early would have any impact on working stock or affect how they work.

 

 

I guess that depends on the exact cause. Suppose ETS is caused by a depth perception problem. Would a depth perception problem affect how a dog works stock?

 

Or suppose it is caused by a lack of clearness of vision. Would an inability to see clearly affect how a dog works stock?

[jdarling]

If they think its a genetic problem, I wonder if any of these dogs did stock work, whether the issue causing them to jump early would have any impact on working stock or affect how they work.

 

Unfortunately, they couldn't care less. If they did care, this is backwards. Breed for the ability to run through or jump over inanimate objects without catching their toenails on a bar, and then see what's left of their stock working ability?

[Eileen Stein]

This (if it's not a joke, and I frankly don't care enough to investigate whether it is or isn't) is a prime example of how breeding for agility will change breeding criteria, and thereby change the dogs.

[jdarling]

I hope this is a joke.

 

NANCY GYES - Lesson Time for All

 

Katy Robertson and I swabbed every border collie at the trial this past weekend that had not been done in the recent past. We got at least 30 new samples. If you are willing to hand out swabs at a trial, and send them back postage paid by the researchers, we will be farther along the road to getting thousands of DNA samples of border collies for the control group for epilepsy, deafness and the ETS study. If you write to me at powerpaws@aol.com I will see that you are sent a package of swabs and you can join us in helping with the research.

(Emphasis mine...)

 

So now what? They are trying to find the genetic marker for ETS so they can breed against it? Or am I reading too far into this?

[Journey]

Ok, time out....thought they were a bit odd in trying to call this a genetic factor but who in Sam Hill is actually doing "this" research? Personally to me this is a huge waste of time, funds and brilliant minds if these people are for real. Please someone say it's not funded or part of ABCA funding.

[rushdoggie]

I hope this is a joke.

 

NANCY GYES - Lesson Time for All

 

(Emphasis mine...)

 

So now what? They are trying to find the genetic marker for ETS so they can breed against it? Or am I reading too far into this?

 

I suspect they are looking for a similarity of something that links the dogs who have ETS, that might point towards the cause (LM states in a lot of places she isn't sure what the cause is except it doesn't seem to be a training issue).

 

Is LM doing the study (she is a vet, afterall)?

Edit: found elsewhere on Nancy's blog

 

Just to clarify a few details on the early takeoff study. That study is one which had it’s inception a short time ago and was initiated by Linda Mecklenburg. Allison Ruhe is also organizing that study but it is more complicated than just sending in blood work. A video of your dogs jumping will need to be analyzed to determine if your dog does indeed have symptoms of early takeoff. A website may be developed and more information will be forthcoming soon on how you can participate.

[Eileen Stein]

Ok, time out....thought they were a bit odd in trying to call this a genetic factor but who in Sam Hill is actually doing "this" research? Personally to me this is a huge waste of time, funds and brilliant minds if these people are for real. Please someone say it's not funded or part of ABCA funding.

 

The ABCA has not contributed any funding to a study of Early Takeoff Syndrome, and I feel confident in saying we will not be contributing funding to any such study in the future. I had not heard of the existence of such a study before today.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Am I crazy in thinking dogs naturally have lousy depth perception, to varying levels, anyway? I assumed this when raising pups (its really not funny when pup gets "stuck" on something four inches tall) and training dogs in water.

 

Before we start testing their ability to triangulate sound - they don't do that well either.

 

Um, puppies get really crazy in the inner ear department while they grow. Large, fast growing older pups especially. Before someone starts swabbing for Falling Off the Dogwalk Syndrome. Just sayin'.

[Journey]

Thanks Eileen! Ok, I did some poking around, it's not just a BC thing, it's all breeds they claim.

 

Becca, I agree with your eye thought. This link http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/juvenile-onset-shyness-juvenile-onset-myopia makes the most sense (why can't I insert from a mobile like I can from a pc?) Then we have this report http://www.workingdogs.com/vision_coile.htm

 

After watching a few vids of what is claimed to be ETS I have to wonder if speed and being "frantic" with it along with all the glaring brightness of an agility course plays a part.

 

Patti Mah ran a Mal many years ago. Too bad they all can't run as quiet, controlled, fluid and sensible as she did. That was a team to watch.

 

ps. I hope the links work!

[Liz P]

I dunno. Frankie and Hazel can catch a tennis ball flying at their head at an alarming rate of speed with no warning. Lots of Border Collies are fantastic at catching frisbees. Wouldn't they need good depth perception to do that?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Depth perception is a function of offset forward facing eyes, right? Cats actually have terrible depth perception too, because their pupils are too close. You'll see a cat swivel its head left and right slightly before a tricky jump.

 

I'm pretty sure though, that a one eyed dog can catch even fast moving Frisbees and balls. My seventeen and a half year old Maggie still catches tiny treats, and she's stone blind in one eye.

 

I lay on the ground a lot (yeah) and can see where some of a dog or sheep's hesitation might come from. Not sure about cattle. If your eyes are max, eighteen inches from the ground, the world looks a lot different.

 

Have you ever packed a bunch of sheep in a pen and lay down in there? On purpose I mean. Not sit, lie down at dog level. Id totally include this on my list of Things Newcomers to Dog Handling Must Do.

 

As to the bars - I'd go many a mile before I assumed something wasn't a "training issue."

[Root Beer]

Thanks Eileen! Ok, I did some poking around, it's not just a BC thing, it's all breeds they claim.

 

No, it's not just Border Collies. Most of the dogs that I hear are affected by it seem to be Shelties. Of course there are a lot of Border Collies and Shelties in Agility so that doesn't really indicate that it would be specific to either breed. Apparently dogs of many different breeds seem to be affected.

 

After watching a few vids of what is claimed to be ETS I have to wonder if speed and being "frantic" with it along with all the glaring brightness of an agility course plays a part.

 

I think that's what the research is all about. To find what actually is causing this. I'm sure that stimulation levels, training holes, structural issues, etc. were all the first things considered.

 

From what I've read, one interesting aspect of this is that it seems to affect dogs who often started out as solid and reliable jumpers, and then this developed later on. Many of these dogs have been put through remedial jumping training, which typically does the trick for jump problems that are caused by training holes or stimulation levels, and the training does not help in the way that it typically does.

 

Another thing is that it seems to affect only the jumps, not the weave poles. If the problem were caused by speed, stimulation, and the brightness of an Agility course, weaves would most certainly be affected, probably even more than jumps.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

By bars I meant, you know, hurdles. Not, let's go out for a drink.

[rushdoggie]

As to the bars - I'd go many a mile before I assumed something wasn't a "training issue."

 

Linda Mecklenberg is a very, very experienced agility trainer and handler as well as a veterinarian. It appears she has been studying this phenomenon for some time. Based on her experience, if she says its not a training or handling issue, I am inclined to believe her. I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of identifying it as an issue related to choosing breeding stock, but thats another issue.

[Root Beer]

As to the bars - I'd go many a mile before I assumed something wasn't a "training issue."

 

Linda Mecklenburg has gone many, many, many, and many more miles with this before coming to the conclusion that it is not a training issue.

 

If you really are interested in learning more about why many people in the Agility community are taking this seriously, I highly recommend getting hold of her Clean Run article, or reading her posts in the archives of the Clean Run list.

 

ETA: Rushdoggie, I didn't see your post until I had finished this reply!!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Well, I meant dismissing a difficulty as being "not a training issue" without examining in depth it outside the context of that one particular sport. For instance, when I'd work with a dog with antisocial behaviors, it helped to establish a really basic relationship, then test those simple expectations against many different environments.

 

I'm not putting myself up against Dr. Mecklenburg, by any means. I'm an autistic, antisocial sheep farmer with a broken brain. I'm never going to be a world class anything. But I always instinctively rebel against anything that seems like a generalization.

 

Or maybe I get fired up at "labels". Are they really disabled? Maybe there's a way for them to suceed no one's thought of yet!

 

Projecting much? Awesome. :eyeroll:

[juliepoudrier]

I guess what I don't understand is if this happens across a number of breeds, why study just the genetics of the border collie? Is it because a majority of agility dogs are border collies? Or that they already have so much DNA on hand from border collies for the other studies being done, so easier just to collect more from the same breed (don't want to say population, because the populations are different).

 

To the person who asked how depth perception could affect stockwork, I'm not sure of an answer. I don't know enough about depth perception in dogs in general to hazard a guess, but I'd think in the regions where the breed was developed that good eyesight would be important--to see stock, to avoid hazards, and so on. How that translates or compares to dog running over obstacles in an agility setting, I have no idea....

 

I have seen working dogs take tumbles over ditches at trials but generally attributed that to the dog looking up the field and not seeing the obstacle right in front of them (and where I've seen this most often, the grass is also usually rather tall, so the ditch wouldn't be easily visible), and I think we've probably all seen dogs who are so focused on one thing that they sideswipe an obstacle that happens to be along their path, but don't know if those are related to the issue at hand either.

 

J.