brndlbc Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 You can only educate those that want to be. The truth police The truth is some educators just suck. They can only explain/teach things one way and if someone doesn't get it, they must not want to learn or that student is deemed stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 The truth is some educators just suck. They can only explain/teach things one way and if someone doesn't get it, they must not want to learn or that student is deemed stupid. Yup, I guess that's what's wrong with all us folks who support the responsibly, working-bred dog. We just suck. We can't educate because we're not always making a huge effort to make people feel good about what we consider to be unknowledgeable, otherwise well-intentioned, or even self-gratifying decisions. Why do we even bother? Masochism, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 The truth is some educators just suck. Yep, that's true. They can only explain/teach things one way and if someone doesn't get it, they must not want to learn or that student is deemed stupid. I don't recall anyone saying or inferring that about the OP. they were asking for info looking for education. Now the post that revived this thread.....up for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 I think it's called choosing one's battles. Someone who has been breeding lots of dogs and making a lot of money doing so isn't likely to change their breeding practices on the basis of comments on an Internet forum, no matter how naughty or nice those commments are. In such cases, I see no point in spending a lot of time trying to couch comments into something that might be perceived as more palatable by others--I doubt anyone or anything will make a successful breeder (by success I mean someone who is making plenty of money selling pups) change his/her formula. To think otherwise is naive. We have plenty of examples (Swafford, MAH) that bolster the belief that nothing (not even threat of removal from the registry) will change a winning breeding and puppy sales formula. Just saying. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 The truth is some educators just suck. They can only explain/teach things one way and if someone doesn't get it, they must not want to learn or that student is deemed stupid. The truth is ... the OP didn't come here looking for an education. The OP bought a pup from the closest place she could find one from (exactly 9.3 miles from Waynesville, OH to Lebanon, OH from her house to her "breeder"), and wanted to find out if anyone had pups related to her because I'm sure she's well aware that her "breeder" had been breeding for a long time (and I'm sure was told all about the fabulous lines a million generations behind her dog and not much about the dogs that her pup is actually directly out of), and knew there was a possibility that coming on to a public forum like this one might yield a related dog or two. Wouldn't that have been so fun? Any why is it that when "breeders" come on here with their sanctimonious crap, it's the board that gets criticized for not "educating" them? Why is it our job to educate people (with information full of warm fuzzies and dipped in candy coating) that do not want to be or are looking to be educated? If this makes me suck, so be it. I suck. brindlbc, where are your candy-coated warm fuzzies? I didn't see you hauling them at either the OP or the "breeder." Do you suck, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Not that you care. Don't care? What we care about are the dogs; responsible breeding; educated buyers who do their homework (and want to know what that homework is); who, if they ask questions, are at least willing to read the answers because they just might learn something; people who crank out puppies because they can and sell them however they can, with or without slick marketing, and with a host of red flags. Sure, some of the replies *to the breeder* got a bit testy and some got sarcastic, particularly after her second post, continuing to extol her virtues without ever offering up anything worthwhile to justify her breeding dogs and her breeding practices. After years of dealing with similar breeders (and people who ask questions but aren't willing to engage in a dialogue with feedback), you might be able to understand why people get a bit jaded and frustrated. Or maybe not, since what we say isn't coated in honey and feel-good phrases. Thank goodness, I say, for those who do perserve in trying to get the word out to potential buyers of dogs and pups - and who continue to offer good advice whether or not people want to listen to it. Thanks to Julie P in particular for her patience and perserverance, and to others too numerous to name - and I'm sad to see where many who could contribute great amounts of knowledge and experience just don't bother any more because folks all too often just don't get it or appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 and I'm sad to see where many who could contribute great amounts of knowledge and experience just don't bother any more because folks all too often just don't get it or appreciate it. Now Sue we were just told (scolded) that some teachers suck.....no one is stupid, it's always the teachers fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Now Sue we were just told (scolded) that some teachers suck.....no one is stupid, it's always the teachers fault You are right. I really don't think the vast majority of people who ask questions or do "dumb" things (done plenty of those myself) are stupid. Determined to do things their way, yes. Uneducated, yes. Unthinking, yes. Making a profit, yes. But not stupid. And some just don't want to hear anything but validation of whatever it is they want to do, have done, or plan to do. Someone once asked me, was I always this dumb or was I making a particular effort. The jury is still out on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 There is a Russian proverb that applies here; "There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out. It doesn´t matter if the "educators" suck or not, if someone is unwilling to learn he or she will stay ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 There is a Russian proverb that applies here; "There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out. It doesn´t matter if the "educators" suck or not, if someone is unwilling to learn he or she will stay ignorant. You are absolutely right, except in this case you may be wrong, according to brndlbc. Are you sure it's Russian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurBoys Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Brndlebc, you seem to be developing a pattern. Why do you get upset or get an attitude every time someone brings up the board’s philosophy? Do you not agree with it? Personally, I wish there was a law that required people to prove their Border Collie had herding instinct and was capable of doing their job up to a specific standard before being allowed to breed. Maybe then we wouldn’t have so many dying in shelters or the need for rescues. If you don’t believe in the philosophy of the boards, there are a couple of ways to get around that. #1-If you think it’s been mentioned in a thread, don’t read the thread. There is no hard fast rule you HAVE to read that or any thread. And you won't get your feelings hurt. #2-Get over it. (You seem to enjoy using that phrase so I’m sure you won’t consider it rude.) Do you also go to Catholic churches and try to convert them over to Judaism? And when you fail, do you then call them stupid? No one used that word until you did and I really don’t know why you did. I don’t know if you realize this but these boards were created for the working stockdog and their people. I, for one, appreciate the fact they let the less-than-knowledgeable people like myself join and not shut me out. I still have a lot to learn but I feel I know more now than I did before joining. And to all you educators out there? Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions even though I’m sure some of them might have sounded silly. You never made me feel that way. You exercised patience and consideration when sharing your knowledge. There is no doubt in my mind because you did so, some of my future decisions are going to be easier to make. And believe it or not, I even thank you for those times you set me straight. Keep up the good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martySQ Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Journey and others, Of course I read the whole thread, and of course I know you all care passionately, as do I. I just prefer a kinder and gentler approach to people venturing into the boards the 1st and 2nd times! I am a blunt person when telling the truth...but not until I get to know someone well enough to know how well they will take it... if I need to be gentler at first, I am, as to gain their respect and trust before I share truth with them. I certainly don't ridicule until I know them extremely well enough for them to know I am teasing them. Other than that, I try not to be sarcastic or ridicule anymore. It just seems to make situations worse rather than better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 I don’t know if you realize this but these boards were created for the working stockdog and their people. I, for one, appreciate the fact they let the less-than-knowledgeable people like myself join and not shut me out. I still have a lot to learn but I feel I know more now than I did before joining. And to all you educators out there? Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions even though I’m sure some of them might have sounded silly. You never made me feel that way. You exercised patience and consideration when sharing your knowledge. There is no doubt in my mind because you did so, some of my future decisions are going to be easier to make. And believe it or not, I even thank you for those times you set me straight. Keep up the good work! Thank *you*! It is nice to be appreciated for the time, effort, and passion that the working stockdog people put into trying to get the information out to those who are less aware (there, wasn't that a warm and fuzzy phrase?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Journey and others, Of course I read the whole thread, and of course I know you all care passionately, as do I. I just prefer a kinder and gentler approach to people venturing into the boards the 1st and 2nd times! I am a blunt person when telling the truth...but not until I get to know someone well enough to know how well they will take it... if I need to be gentler at first, I am, as to gain their respect and trust before I share truth with them. I certainly don't ridicule until I know them extremely well enough for them to know I am teasing them. Other than that, I try not to be sarcastic or ridicule anymore. It just seems to make situations worse rather than better. Thanks. I can understand where you are coming from clearer and for the most part I may even agree. However (don't ya hate it), many times on these boards you aren't given the time to cultivate a relationship when a question such as the *original* one here comes up. If you don't get out the unvarnished truth fast and hard the consequences could be monumental. I believe the OP was hit very mildly, then apologies abounded. But..the breeder came in hard and fast and was dealt with likewise imo. Those posts were laced in goo (again my opinion) and most of us stripped it clean. Now, said breeder hasn't been back (maybe she really is working her dogs - who knows?) so cultivating a warm and fuzzy would have been a waste of bandwidth Yeah, there are people here with extreme patience but there are also people gone now with more knowledge than I'll ever dream of having. Gone cause it gets old, headbanging crazy at some of bizarre things asked, said,questioned or challenged or ya get dizzy on the merry go round! I can't speak for others but I know I have gotten plenty of "ya'll warned me but I didn't believe you" PM's. When you're talking dogs that can be dangerous or heartbreaking, depending on the situation. So steering a newbie away from what is in direct conflict with board philosophy and personal belief then pointing out the pitfalls of why quickly and truthfully gets the point across much quicker and if luck has it w/o heartbreak. And maybe someone lurking takes what they've read and learns as well. Good doG I've written way too much gotta quit evening coffee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Being able to recognize the truth is like being able to recognize spoiled food. If you don’t have the knack for either you’re apt to swallow things that are bad for you, regardless of what people do or say to prevent you. I don’t have any experience with working Border Collies. I came here with some amazingly stupid notions, and some of those who set out to set me straight were a bit salty. But what they said had the ring of truth, and so I stayed to continue learning. If I had been totally convinced that my way was the only way I could have clutched my idiocy to me and flounced off, but even if I hadn’t, the most sweetly-voiced sense would not have moved me. Fortunately for me, I stayed. If people care only about defending their views, even if none of the evidence before them supports those views, then talking to them, however diplomatically, is a waste of breath. Still, when you see a child start to run into a busy street, you want to yell something. Typically it does not begin with, “Now, Sweetie-Pie…” I am grateful that there are a number of folk here who cared enough about Border Collies to tell me to get my head out of my butt. In many ways it was a breath of fresh air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brndlbc Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 OK, the other day I replied to a comment with a direct but vague reply about educators. I did this deliberately. My tone was deliberate. I knew full well what I was doing, what the reactions would be and they were exactly the ones I was looking for so that I could make a point. I kept the comment vague to see how many people would just assume they knew what it is I meant(there are a lot of people on these boards that like to tell other people what they mean). The reactions that came illustrates what many people "outside" the loop get put off by and leave these boards because of. I might suggest that some are too close to "the cause" to see this objectively. No where did I say that "all" educators sucked nor did I direct my comments at any single person or group on these boards including those who replied directly about it. I was hoping that someone would ask for an explanation but realistically I knew that it would probably not come but also knew that it would end up "here" anyway. So I proceeded with my post. Like I said above, the comments were expected as was their tone. Many of my comments over the last few weeks have been put out for reaction. You gave me what I was looking for. I will suggest that some of the replies many offer up on these boards along these lines and tone, are as offensive to some, including "newbies", as my "educator" comment was to many of you. I would hope that some of you use this as food for thought. Lately I researched others posts, "turned the comments back on the commenter", been snarky and disagreeable. All done deliberately. I essentially played the game as many here play it. It was not well received. I will let you decide what that means. In the end, I think what surprised me most though is that when the chips were really down, my dogs got dragged into it. What is that about? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Good reason to simply ignore your posts, obviously. While others were engaged in serious discussion, taking what you wrote as your honest opinion, you were playing games and being deceptive. Nice. (Wait, that's not true so I'd better not be deceptive or misleading so - not nice.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 In the end, I think what surprised me most though is that when the chips were really down, my dogs got dragged into it. What is that about? Tim I'm not even going to attempt to infer, assume or try to figure out the bulk of your post and your actions. But what on earth are you talking about in the above quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurBoys Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 I did this deliberately. My tone was deliberate. I knew full well what I was doing, what the reactions would be and they were exactly the ones I was looking for........ I might suggest that some are too close to "the cause" to see this objectively. My DH has a niece that would deliberately get her dog to jump up on her (paws on chest) so she could deliberately knee him in the chest/stomach. In her mind, she thought she was teaching him not to jump up on her. In reality, she was punishing him for doing what he was told to do. In some odd way, you remind me of her. And personally, I don't think you comprehend the seriousness of "the cause". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 So Brndlbc, if I understand your long winded last post right, you are actually telling us that basically you are a troll. That´s good to know, that means I can ignore your posts from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 ^^Exactly. I've been thinking this for a while now. I guess he set out to prove a premise to himself and has succeeded in doing so. But I kept wondering why he kept posting to threads and not adding anything useful or helpful. Now I know. Thanks for clearing that up, Tim, because I had been willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but as Smalahundur has said, since you've outed yourself as a troll, you'll now be relegated to that status. And I too am completely confused about where the "my dogs" comment comes from, since the last I remember anyone talking about your dogs was when you posted pics in the gallery ages ago. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 I have placed brndlbc on moderation because of his announcement that he has been systematically and deliberately putting up snarky and disagreeable posts with the intention of giving offense to other posters, and thereby somehow proving to them that their own posts are offensive. If anyone is in doubt as to why deliberately posting snarky and disagreeable posts with the intention of giving offense is not acceptable on the Boards, please contact me privately for an explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 OK, the other day I replied to a comment with a direct but vague reply about educators. I did this deliberately. My tone was deliberate. I knew full well what I was doing, what the reactions would be and they were exactly the ones I was looking for so that I could make a point. Well, I'm an educator (of humans), and I knew exactly what you meant. Chose to ignore it. It's a weak, adolescent argument parents toss out to excuse themselves when their spoiled kids won't study or do their homework. (If my kid isn't learning, it MUST be your fault!) However, I think it's highly ironic that you admit that you willfully chose a an inflammatory means of posting, in order to try to educate people, when you are right now preaching a sermon against inflammatory means of educating people. Mary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 my, my my. Its good to see that even tho Ive been out of the loop round here for awhile,.....that some things never change. Same story, different day. Lol Keep up the good work friends keeping trolls in line and keeping the passion real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CebakaLaika Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 My mother always said you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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