Has anyone ever adopted from "Stampers Border Collies?

[juliepoudrier]

To all of you who wish to catch more flies with honey, PLEASE do. No one is stopping you from doing so in any of these discussions. If you have information to share and a preferred way to do it, then, please, have at it. It would probably be a more efficient and profitable use of your time than telling others how THEY should post. And who knows? Maybe you would make some converts if others actually saw you achieve success with your preferred means of imparting information to others.

 

Over the years I've seen many folks admonishing others that they "could catch more flies with honey," and yet often the folks doing the admonishing are not the ones who are spending their time and energy trying to actually share information.

 

True story: I was exhausting sheep for the novice classes at a trial. I had observed some (more than a few actually, and had seen this at more than one trial; that is, it was clearly a pattern for some of these teams) of the novice handlers stand at the post while their dogs did stuff like ring the sheep at the top, chasing them all over the place before finally getting behind them to bring them toward the handler. This action all taking place within 50 yards of the handler. I finally said to one handler (since this handler actually had to come over near the exhaust to run down his dog), "You know, if you'd just leave the post a couple of times and pre-empt that behavior, the dog would stop doing it, but as long as you just stand at the post and let it happen, then the dog is learning that what it's doing is acceptable to you."

 

Some may consider those words unnecessarily harsh, but they were honest, and anyone who knows me personally will know that I said it in the nicest possible manner. The handler didn't have much to say in return, but came up to me later in the day and said (paraphrasing here) that he had been a bit upset about what I had said, but once he thought about it, he realized I was right. He then proceeded to thank me for taking an interest and taking the time to offer advice that could help him improve.

 

So, IME at least, telling it like it is might upset someone in the moment, but if that person is mature and tries to keep an open mind, then they will get past the intial annoyance to see the wisdom, along with the true desire to help, that engendered the encounter/words in the first place. And when you've been in the world a while, I think it's fairly easy to discern who might be amenable to advice and who isn't, and act accordingly. YMMV.

 

J.

[OurBoys]

.........telling it like it is might upset someone in the moment, but if that person is mature and tries to keep an open mind, then they will get past the intial annoyance to see the wisdom, along with the true desire to help, that engendered the encounter/words in the first place......

Exactly.

[D'Elle]

Don't care?

 

What we care about are the dogs; responsible breeding; educated buyers who do their homework (and want to know what that homework is); who, if they ask questions, are at least willing to read the answers because they just might learn something.....

 

 

Thank goodness, I say, for those who do perserve in trying to get the word out to potential buyers of dogs and pups - and who continue to offer good advice whether or not people want to listen to it.

 

 

There is a Russian proverb that applies here; "There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out.

 

 

^

What they said.

I got my feelings hurt last fall when I bumbled in trying to get a puppy, and folks on this board let me know how ill-informed I was. But the bottom line is, I needed to be educated, in a big way. Had no one cared enough to speak up to me, however barbed it may have felt at the time, I would have eventually regretted my choice, however nice that dog might have turned out to be, once I did get properly informed. I thought I understood, but I didn't, and am grateful to those here who went to the trouble of educating me so that I truly understand. They didn't sugar coat it for me. But that's not what true caring is about. It is about telling someone the truth.

D'Elle

[Journey]

My mother always said you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar...........

 

I've heard this time and time again. I've never had the infatuation of catching flies though, obviously neither did the person who invented the *flyswatter*!

[Sue R]

...They didn't sugar coat it for me. But that's not what true caring is about. It is about telling someone the truth.

D'Elle

Right on! Caring means honesty because if you are not telling someone the truth, you are deceiving them.

 

That said, comments made to the OP here were (in general) reasonably stated for someone asking a question. Comments made to the breeder who came on to laud herself were also reasonably stated - as replies to her self-promotion and obvious but blissful ignorance.

[geonni banner]

I think D'Elle's post is most telling. I may not be an "old-timer" on the Boards, but I remember her coming aboard. She definitely got the tough-love approach from many, but look what came of it. She got an education and the right dog. Maybe our educators are not so crappy after all.

 

My stepdad used to tell an apocryphal story about a man happening upon a farmer beating a mule over the head with a 2x4. The first man remonstrated with the farmer saying, "Oh please stop! You are being cruel to the poor animal!" The farmer turned to him and said, "Cruel? I'm just trying to get his attention!."

 

As for the the troll thing, I never even heard of it. I don't go to a lot of BBSs, but a quick look at the subject on Wikipedia confirmed it. We have a troll. You wonder what goes through their minds. Yeesh!

[Sue R]

And I've tried to be more than kind (here and elsewhere) about this sort of discussion (responsible breeding and purchasing/adoption) and found that to sugarcoat things just allows the person you are talking to to more readily dismiss what you are saying as unimportant compared to what they want to think and do. At least if you are blunt (but polite), you may cause someone to really think about it.

[martySQ]

I just don't understand why being kinder and gentler has to be equated with sugarcoating stuff...

 

I am not comfortable with that much bluntness on a forum where you cannot read a person's face or body language.

 

Change a person---> change a dog's life, and maybe many more down the road ..

[geonni banner]

I just don't understand why being kinder and gentler has to be equated with sugarcoating stuff...

I just am not comfortable with that much bluntness on a forum where you cannot read a person's face or body language.

 

Well, in my experience people who don't know you tend not to take you seriously if there is not an edge to what you say. People who know you may feel that you are trying to be tactful and listen when you make nice. But strangers tend to blow you off. Diplomacy can be construed as either general weakness or a lack of conviction in the views you hold. They are more apt to pay attention to what you say if you "say it like you mean it." Dogs too, for that matter. (Either one may think you are a jerk, but they will listen to you.)

 

If you are trying to convince someone to get their bitch spayed because she shouldn't be bred, you can go the route of saying something vague about pet overpopulation, or you can draw a clearer picture of the deterioration of breeding stock when dogs other than top quality are bred. The first argument can be easily shrugged off "because you don't know what a wonderful dog Missy is." The second argument may sting a bit, because they have to face the fact that Missy, wonderful as she is, would be a liability in a breeding program. But it's harder to shrug off this kind of sharply drawn picture. The person may go off with their back up or stinging a little, but they won't soon forget it. And if they have any sense and/or integrity, they will see that you are right. If they don't, well, no matter how nice you are, it won't change their mind.

 

I'm all for being nice when you can. But sometimes vinegar is what's called for. You can always switch to honey when you've "got their attention." And sometimes, when you're faced with monumental stupidity, pig-headedness and/or just plain greed, it's hard not to "come out swinging."

[rushdoggie]

I'm all for being nice when you can. But sometimes vinegar is what's called for. You can always switch to honey when you've "got their attention." And sometimes, when you're faced with monumental stupidity, pig-headedness and/or just plain greed, it's hard not to "come out swinging."

 

There's a line between being straightforward and telling it like it is, and being aggressive and making it cross the line into personal. While I get your point about the vinegar, when you get too sour people walk away without listening. I haven't taken the time to re-read this thread I have seen a few examples of extremely sour here. Most of the time, stuff here is what I would define "straightforward" as opposed to aggressively rude, but I do think at times people come on a little strong. YMMV.

[OurBoys]

I know what you're saying, Rushdoggie. I really do. But these boards are nicer than they use to be. And to be honest with you, I'm surprised. Considering how many times the same thing has been said over and over and over again for years, I would have thought it would have been the other way around. I know first hand how frustrating it is to tell someone the same thing over and over and over again. But, who knows, maybe that's it. Maybe I'm able to empathize because I've walked that preverbal mile in their shoes. So trust me when I say, when your own mom pushes you to the point where you have to walk away from her or you're going to start screaming at her, there aren't too many posts on too many threads that actually look aggressive to you. In fact, there have been times I said to myself "Wow, how do they do it?" or "Wow, I'm impressed with so & so's patience".

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Everybody has a right to be a beginner. We all were. The sheepdog community is neither secretive nor exclusive. I know no special tips or tricks reserved only for those who have sworn the blood oath or know the special handshake. There's sound Border Collie information available; all of it free. This sharing isn't because the community cares about you any more than it cares about me. It cares about your dog. The community wants your dog to be as beautiful and happily beautiful as we know it can be.

 

Donald McCaig

[Sue R]

Thank you, Donald.

 

The issue here, in this topic, was not the OP (the beginner) - the OP was treated quite fairly, I feel. The hot part of the discussion was with the breeder (28 years with dogs?) who is definitely not a beginner although severely lacking in understanding.

 

Yes, we certainly need to be polite but honest, kind but clear. And it is all about the dogs.

[bcnewe2]

Well said Donald. Well said.

[Tommy Coyote]

I just don't understand why being kinder and gentler has to be equated with sugarcoating stuff...

 

I am not comfortable with that much bluntness on a forum where you cannot read a person's face or body language.

 

Change a person---> change a dog's life, and maybe many more down the road ..

We live in the Midwest. We are not rude - to anyone. It's an unspoken law here. It makes me really nervous when things get sort of nasty or confrontational.

 

I agree with you. I don't think it's ever necessary to be rude to get your point across. Confrontation simply shuts down communication.

[juliepoudrier]

Well maybe I'm an idiot, but I still don't get why it makes more sense to tell others how *they* should post when in fact one could instead be showing by example. Seriously. If anyone has knowledge on a topic and wants to share it in a different way from the way others are sharing it, then I think that could be the most positive example you could offer. It certainly would be a better tactic than telling others how they should post, since we know that generally doesn't work.

 

After more than a decade on this forum and others I can tell you (the general you) that you're not likely to change people's posting personalities. They are what they are. And after more than a decade on this forum and others I can say that these same subjects come up repeatedly and, if it's a controversial topic, they always seem to go down this "if only you were nicer" road. IME people are either going to listen or not. Sometimes you can be only so nice. There has been some real rudeness on this forum in the past and I can honestly say that the bluntness some folks use now doesn't hold a candle to what has gone on in the past.

 

Will some people be offended by others? Sure. It happens. Will some of those people be offended by any statement, no matter how nice, that contradicts their own beliefs? Most certainly. One thing I have noticed over the years is that the folks on this forum are quick to apologize when they have caused true offense (usually the result of not having the full story), so I don't think most of the people who post here post with the intent of offending others. But they do call a spade a spade and they are willing to call someone out when they're talking out of their butts. I see nothing wrong with that. The anonymity of forums means that people can pass themselves off as knowledgeable when they're not (and really, the only way most people reading their comments would know the difference is if someone recognizes the BS for what it is and calls the person out, and there's really no super nice way to do that--the breeder in this thread being a case in point.)

 

I also know from experience that some minds won't be changed no matter what. I had a student who had a conformation bred border collie. His wife wanted to show the dog and he wanted to work her on stock. Not surprisingly, she was a washout on stock. His wife observed many of the lessons (always worrying that she was going to get hurt), saw how she compared to the working bred dogs, went to trials and enjoyed watching the working dogs do their thing. She was very friendly with many of the people who came out to my farm. I am still friendly with her. And yet, despite all that she saw and heard, in a friendly and personal way, she's still taking that dog to shows trying to get her conformation championship, and yes, she plans to breed her. All the niceness in the world didn't change that person's mind. So if some of you feel like your calls for kindler, gentler posts are falling on deaf ears, please consider that perhaps at least some of us have tried it both ways (and in fact still do), but when a point needs to be made, I for one feel it needs to be made clearly and succinctly. And doing so doesn't necessarily equate with being rude.

 

Then again, I'm the sort of person who would prefer that you just flat out tell me that my zipper is down, or there's toilet paper on my shoe, or food in my teeth rather than trying to figure out what it is you're hinting around about in the nicest possible roundabout way....

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

What I find interesting is how many of the heated threads start with a premise or statement which is in direct conflict with what is stated in Read this First and the OP not asking for the reasoning behind Read this First.

[ShoresDog]

Btw, Julie Poudrier is one of the most knowledgable, patient and helpful posters on these boards. What she says has HUGE weight. And sadly, she's right. Some people don't change their minds no matter what. But some do, and some learn, and for that I think we can thank long time members like Julie, Rebecca, Donald, Sue, and many, many more, who stick around and keep contributing. And I also truly appreciate our tarter members. That means you, Jodi! Please keep on being passionate about puppy mills, Jodi, there are dogs out there who thank you!

[Jack & Co.]

Btw, Julie Poudrier is one of the most knowledgable, patient and helpful posters on these boards. What she says has HUGE weight. And sadly, she's right. Some people don't change their minds no matter what. But some do, and some learn, and for that I think we can thank long time members like Julie, Rebecca, Donald, Sue, and many, many more, who stick around and keep contributing. And I also truly appreciate our tarter members. That means you, Jodi! Please keep on being passionate about puppy mills, Jodi, there are dogs out there who thank you!

 

Jan, you read my mind and put it into great words! I am so grateful to our "elder statesmen" members who are willing to repeat ad nauseam the philosophy for preserving the working border collie in order to never let the important issues fall by the wayside. I know they tear their hair out in frustration many times, particularly when they are criticized for being "mean" or "prickly" yet they stick with it and continue to post in the General Border Collie Discussion section. I think some readers mistake their PASSION for "aggression".

 

So many of our long-time members have stopped coming around and I miss their knowledge and expertise. I am so appreciative of the ones who continue to share their valuable information with us.

 

What I find interesting is how many of the heated threads start with a premise or statement which is in direct conflict with what is stated in Read this First and the OP not asking for the reasoning behind Read this First.

 

Mark, this is so perfectly said! A great observation! Wish the Read This First was a pop-up that had to be read before forum membership could be completed.

[D'Elle]

Then again, I'm the sort of person who would prefer that you just flat out tell me that my zipper is down, or there's toilet paper on my shoe, or food in my teeth rather than trying to figure out what it is you're hinting around about in the nicest possible roundabout way....

 

J.

 

Me too.

I also appreciate Donald McCaig's post. And, of course, the caring I was referring to in my post above was caring for the dogs and the breed, not for me personally. Which is as it should be.

D'Elle

[Barefoot]

they have a very nice web site

They have a very nice website selling Border Collies clearly bred for cool colors, but promoted as coming from working lines that "have several International and National Supreme Herding Champions in their lineage from Scotland and England". Such as Wiston Cap. Really? Try to find a BC without Wiston Cap somewhere in their pedigree; nearly impossible.

 

These are the worst sort of breeders; proclaiming themselves protectors of working ability while at the very same time breeding directly against it. Sadly many newcomers will believe them, and feel they have the working interests of the breed at heart. Breeders like Stampers are hip to the fact that stating "Working" as many times as possible is a good marketing ploy. Unfortunately, it means naught these days.

 

And to digress a bit, and likely throw gas on the fire, they also loudly state their affiliation with the ABCA while clearly not breeding in a manner aligned with the stated purpose of the ABCA.

[mbc1963]

We live in the Midwest. We are not rude - to anyone. It's an unspoken law here. It makes me really nervous when things get sort of nasty or confrontational.

 

Which is one of the problems with online communication! What the Midwest considers rude, many of the northeasters in here consider a heated, spirited, vigorous debate. I don't get at all nervous during hearty expressions of disagreement. In fact, I rather enjoy them. So... your tolerance may be very much less than mine, based on where you were raised and how people act there.

 

Am I rude?

Are you a milquetoast?

Obviously, it's all subjective.

 

I wouldn't come into a forum and call someone a milquetoast, and I would hope that someone else who doesn't understand my POV wouldn't call me rude, just because I express myself more vociferously or less cagedly.

 

Mary

[geonni banner]

Btw, Julie Poudrier is one of the most knowledgable, patient and helpful posters on these boards. What she says has HUGE weight. And sadly, she's right. Some people don't change their minds no matter what. But some do, and some learn, and for that I think we can thank long time members like Julie, Rebecca, Donald, Sue, and many, many more, who stick around and keep contributing. And I also truly appreciate our tarter members. That means you, Jodi! Please keep on being passionate about puppy mills, Jodi, there are dogs out there who thank you!

Hear hear! And I'd like to add some others - Tea, Anna G.,and Of course Eileen, who doesn't say a lot but when she does it's worth listening to.

 

And leave us not forget the relative newcomers like myself who create all sorts of opportunities for wiser heads to instruct when we put our big size 9 1/2s in our mouths!

[amc]

Wish the Read This First was a pop-up that had to be read before forum membership could be completed.

 

Oh yes. And then they'd have to take a test on what they read. How's that for educating?

 

Amy

[Sue R]

Oh yes. And then they'd have to take a test on what they read. How's that for educating?

 

Amy

Absolutely!

 

It never ceases to amaze me how many people come to these boards totally clueless about board philosophy and get upset when they post something entirely contrary, and just don't realize why no one validates their opinion. Not that I have ever done so anywhere where I was new...