Which dog needs the training

[steve clendenin]

I was doing some work today and the thought came to me. Which type dog needs to be trained best.

 

A dog that is running in USBCA open trial or one being used on a livestock farm/ranch. Don't just say one or the other, please say why. What kind of training the one you choose needs over the other.

 

I will post mine tomorrow afternoon.

 

Just thought there should be some good discussion on this topic.

[Sue R]

To be competitive, a dog running in USBCHA Open has to be very well trained, as well as having instinct and talent.

 

But, I believe that the dog doing the most important work is the dog that does the work on the farm or ranch. That is the dog that the farmer/rancher relies on and can often not do without.

 

The farm/ranch dog must be able to work with stock of all ages and in all sorts of situations, from out in the open to in the barn and chutes. He needs to be able to work young stock, mature stock, breeding rams or bulls, cow/calf pairs or ewe/lamb groups.

 

The farm/ranch dog has to be able to work as many hours in a day or week or month as the farmer/rancher needs him/her. It's not a 10, 15, or 20 minute trial run, as challenging and exhausting as that may be. He has to be on duty and ready to go any time of day (or night, sometimes).

 

The farm/ranch dog also has to be able to work the stock with as little stress as possible - his owner's livelihood depends on how well he/she can do his job.

 

I have the utmost respect for the USBCHA Open level trial dog (and handler). I believe the farm/ranch working dog does an essential job and, to do so well, must be well trained to be an asset to a livestock operation.

[Shelby Kennels]

Well said Sue. I am in full agreement on that.

[Miztiki]

My inexperienced guess would be that the working dog needs more training.

 

If the other dog makes a mistake, he won't win anything.

 

If the working dog makes a mistake, he could get hurt or killed or a myriad of other terrible things.

 

Hey, do we win something if we guessed right?

[NancyO]

Which type dog needs to be trained best.

Steve,

 

I think the difference is in the degree of obedience required of the dog.

 

Doing farm work often requires the dog to think and work problems out on it's own. When I need to get a mom and one day old lambs out of a corner and into a jug, my dog had better be able to get in there and move them out, without me having to tell it every step of the way. Doing farm work brings out the natural ability more in the dog.

 

For trialing I think the dog has to have a higher degree of obedience, when told to do something, it needs to do it immediately and override it's natural instincts. In this respect I think the trial dog requires more training. When doing a dog legged fetch, the handler needs to be able to override the dogs instinct to bring the sheep in a straight line to the handler.

 

Nancy O

[steve clendenin]

There is no right or wrong answers just something to think about and why you think that way.

[concrete]

I think a well trained farm dog should have no problem running an open course. There is nothing in an open course that isn't done regularly on the farm. He may not win because he might not have commands for mini-flanks, various speeds, etc, but he should do well.

I think there are dogs that are trained to run open courses but have never done farm work that could not move right into farm work. They could probably be trained in time but would not have all the skills needed right away.

I've got a friend in his 80's whose had sheep dogs all his life. His ewes are a good mile away from his barn. He'll let his bitch out tell her to go get the sheep and she heads out down a path through the wood to his pasture. By the time he's got the grain out here she comes bringing his 100 ewes through the woods to the barn. Now Wayne says he can't train a dog good enough to mess with trialing but I think that's one impressive bitch.

 

Kevin

[Pipedream Farm]

I would think (I am guessing here since I have little practical experience) that for farm/ranch work you'd want a more "natural" dog, one that does the job needed with less (less than a trial dog) input from the handler/farmer. More of an extra pair of hands that can help get the job done without being a burden. The job doesn't need to be done to perfection, only done with little stress to the livestock and little burden on the farmer.

 

For trialing you'll want the prefection and therefore more people are going to train for a "mechanical" dog. This will vary amoung handlers (I prefer a more natural dog over a mechanical dog), but here the job to be done is based upon straight lines and unless the dog does this naturally, absolute obedience will be stressed more. Then there's the nit-picking details of crossing ones course, this is where absolute obedience is required; there is no such thing as crossing your course in farm work.

 

So, Steve, not trained better; trained with a different focus. Of course the basics are the same in both cases.

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

Okay, I'll take a stab at it. I think the (strictly) trial dog would need more precise training (as Kevin said, half flanks, pace changes, etc.) whereas the farm dog would probably need more situational training. For example, if I want to sort sheep and am working at a gate, I want my dog to be able to walk up on the flock at any location I indicate ("there") and split the sheep I don't want and move them toward me where I stand at the gate (or conversely hold the sheep I do want back while the others move to the gate). This isn't quite the same as a trial shed, as my dog would be doing the shed with me at some other location. This is what I mean by situational training. I expect my open dog to figure out what it is I'm trying to do in a particular situation and then try to help me do it. In that sense it's not really training so much as the freedom to think. Obviously there are many more situations that can happen in regular farm work, some of which have been noted here, than might occur on the trial field, so from that viewpoint I would say that the farm dog would actually require more training. The flip side to that is the farm dog that is used for nothing more than bringing in the cows at milking time and needs to know only to get the cows and bring them in a direction they probably want to go anyway. Clearly such a dog hasn't had a great amount of training to do what is natural and happens pretty much the same way every day.

 

And all that said, I can't imagine having an open trial dog that didn't also have to do all that practical work as much as possible (I'm sure folks will point out the error of my thinking here). I honestly don't believe that the consistently successful open dogs are able only to do trial courses and can't do the down and dirty daily work for hours at a time if need be. At least I wouldn't really want a dog that couldn't do both. In which case, the training question would be moot because obviously the dog would have the training required for both tasks. In that sense I agree with Kevin in that a well-trained and useful farm dog should have all the basics that would allow him to go out and not embarrass his handler on the open trial course.

 

But I think many farmers also just do the practical and expedient thing with their dogs and don't care about precision as long as the job is done properly, which is why I said that the trial dog requires more precise training (though not necessarily *more* training).

 

My 2 cents.

 

Edit: I see Mark posted as I was writing my missive and said basically what I said, only shorter and sweeter.

 

J.

[Pipedream Farm]

Awwww, aren't you nice Julie. Glad to see you're relaxed and ALL back together.

 

I do have one example of a type of dog that can do well in Open but wouldn't be ones choice for chores, a dog that's antsy and has to make things happen even when you don't want them to. This personality trait can be managed on the trial field, but gets tiring while trying to do chores.

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

Hey Mark,

I have examples in my own dogs of ones who are good on the trial field but may not be as useful in farm work. But my ideal is to have them do both. So for me that means that I have to quit reaching for the dog who is great at doing the farm work and decide to take the time and have the patience to let the other dog (you know, the one who's like a bullet and was recently missing) do that work instead. All theoretical now since I don't exactly have a farm nearby where I can do practical work, or any work, for that matter. I need to get friendly with some of the cattle farmers around here....

 

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that with time (which many of us are short on because we also have regular jobs), I believe you could turn the antsy dog into a more useful farm dog, but if you have a choice of dogs, then you might not want to. The exact pit I've fallen into--it's much easier to take the dog who's really good at it to do the chores rather than struggle through with the less-good dog, even though the less-good dog could certainly benefit enormously from having to do that work.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I suspect I know why this occured to you Steve!

 

I disagree that farm work requires less obedience. It DOES require more natural work, but the two cannot be mutually exclusive in real multifaceted farm work. There are many, many occaisions when you'll be asking a dog to do something that seems really stupic to the dog - the dog legged fetches in trials to me speak more to farm work. And as someone said, refusals to obey on the farm can mean the difference between a job done easily and safely, and loss of time or health of dog, stock, or handler. So the obedience required of a trial dog has great application on the farm.

 

On the other hand, stock sense is required to a greater degree - so there's a lot more "training" - or maybe guidance is a better word for it - involved in shaping it. As Julie said, there are a lot of task-oriented things that WE know how to do, but it may take a few exposures to the dog to figure out.

 

I've been taking the Golden Girls out for a walk every day, which require that they be pulled out of a pen where they are perfectly happy, and walked all over the field for excercise. Two of them are heavily pregnant Polypay/Suffolk crosses, one is a Tunis with a lamb and a bad chronic cough, and one is an old Dorset that keeps wanting to go back to the lambing paddock because three weeks later she is STILL looking for the lambs I pulled off her. There's no way you'd see this situation in a trial, but there it is - and Random is learning to deal with it. He's using some of his trial skills (driving, pace, handling draws) and a guess you'd say he's having to go to a new level (dealing with a ewe and lamb, pacing for a sick sheep, handling sudden "notions" that the different sheep get without losing the lot). Penning is fun - the Polypays want to go in but wait for the old Dorset, the Dorset is dead set against going in, and the Tunis freaks out when her week-old lamb goes and says hello to Random.

 

So the short answer is that I believe there's a higher level of training for the farm dog but it's something that will take longer because it's harder to set up the situations and they are not as straightforward.

[amc]

I think a top trials dog has to have incredible adaptability...the ability to cope with a brand new field, new stock, maybe unbroke or undogged stock, travel, different sounds, weather...the list goes on and on. A farm dog at least has the advantage/comfort of familiar surroundings and familiar livestock.

[Denise Wall]

Here's my opinion.

 

You don't train dogs to do what comes naturally, you only develop and refine it. What you do train is for them to listen to you when their instinct tells them otherwise, such as off balance flanks.

 

Trial work requires more of this type of training so I'd say trial work requires more training by my definition of training.

[steve clendenin]

Let me start off by saying that what I'm saying is my opinion not the answer. I have read all of the other post and anyone could say it is right.

 

This has not always been my feeling on this subject.

 

My opinon is that a dog that is not a sicam dog working on a livestock operation needs the most training to truely be the dog that can go to the pasture or barn and help do the work that has to be done correctly.

I can not use a so called natural working dog on my operation. Don't have a heart attack for me saying this.

Examble of what I am trying to say. I can take a dog that has somewhat flanks and that will come thru sheep and most likely get around a trial course to some degree. I see this at ever trial I go to. The handler is a whole lot better then the dog and they place.

 

Examble of farm training. If I try to move my flock from one pasture to another my dog has to have very solid flanks or I have to go down a lane to be in the right place for him to bring the sheep to. He/she had better be moving my ewes at a steady pace or they will not like me for correcting them.

If I have a ewe with lambs (I lamb in the open) that has move away from the rest of the flock to give birth the dog needs to heel to me until I send it around the single ewe and lamb. I expect the dog to bring the pair towards me or where ever else I direct the dog to take them. Not take a notion to do the natural thing and put everthing together and bring them to me. A dog has to have square flanks to move the new mother and lamb or a fight will break out and I don't like that either. Let a dog slice it's flanks and i will promise you there will be a free for all and the lamb is always the loser

 

I always use my young dogs to do the lambing work. It is the best time to train them to work and work right. They have a chance to learn how to handle stock in a cool calm controled method. I have been ask more then once how I train pace on my dogs. This is the perfect time to give a dog time to learn how to pace themself.

 

I let my dogs work with the least commands possible. They are free to work until I give them a command, then I expect them to honor my command.

 

I tell the people that i have helped to train there dog to work and the trialing is icing on the cake.

 

Doing what a I have said is sometime time consuming with a truly green broke dog but it pays great dividend in the long run.

I am one of a few people that bought the dog for the sheep and not the sheep for the dog.

 

Please don't let this thread stop with my post.

 

Greetings from Jan, Hap, Rick, Cass, and Hac. watch out for the last three they are my future, if they and I live through another lambing that started Monday. Three down 48 to go.

[Howdyjabo]

I think your original question is a little faulty.

 

How about which dog NEEDS to have the best instincts? Wether or not you do alot of official training or not.

 

Slam Dunk-- the farm dog.

 

This is where I think trialing MAY be failing the breed-- I see too many dogs being very sucessful trialing-- but have severe doubts that they have the necessary inherited instincts to make a good farm dog.

It could just be that they have had "reacting" to their inherited instincts trained out of them--- but can we be sure?

 

Karen

[Jeanne Bell]

In my opinion it's the farm work that trains the trial dog. All those little chores we do around the farm are lessons for correct work. Correcting faults in everyday farm work creates good working habits that carry over to the trial field.

 

Mark mentioned that an antsy dog who can't stop moving could be successful at trialing but maybe not farm work. I disagree. I thnk the farm work is the best way to make a useful trial dog with this personality type. To do farm work, he has to learn to relax and listen. This will transfer over to the trial field. Our job as a trainer is to figure out how to get through to this dog's mind and in my opinion correctly done farm work is the tool of choice.

 

I have limited trial experience, but I really believe that you won't find a sucessful trial dog who doesn't do farm work well. I believe both types of work require an equal amount of training for the dog.

 

Jeanne Bell

(Buried in snow in the West Virginia Mtns.)

[Sue R]

Jeanne, What part of WV are you from? We live in North Central WV, about a half hour east of Morgantown.

[Pipedream Farm]

I think I'd have to say the trial dog. My own dog illustrated my point (at least in my mind) just the other day. We have ewes and lambs right now, as well as another group of sheep that will lamb later. I only have one area that I feed, but I keep these two groups seperate. This means, when the ewes with lambs finish their grain, I need to lock them in our shed temporarily so I can feed the second group. Rae got a bit excited the other morning when the lambs didn't go right in the shed. She ran in fast and tight to cover the lambs, but ultimately got the job done quickly with no injury to the lambs. The shepherdess side of me was simply glad to have the job done so I could go back in the house (it was a bitterly cold morning). It was the trial side of me that made me go back out later and practice her flanks with the lambs. What she did was good enough for getting the job done, but it wasn't pretty. My other thought is that I hear of dogs all the time that don't make the cut as a top trial dog, but are then sold as farm dogs. I don't hear people saying "my dog's just not making the cut as a farm dog. I guess I'd better sell him to be a trial dog."

Renee

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

I'm just starting out so I'm about as bright a shade of green as you can get so I'll ask a question instead. Wasn't the sheep trial invented to compair and choose which farmer had the best sheepdog? I understand that dogs can be trained exclusively for the trial work (like any sport) but isn't that self defeating to the breed? Much like shutzhund trials were/are a method of testing or proving which working police/military/protection dog was the cream of the crop? I'm reading but will go back to lurking in this section (probably where I belong : ) )

Annette

[cgt]

Annette: I think you've got it just fine. I'm glad you raised this point.

 

In my (not so experienced) view, the trial is a test to see which dog is best. Just like in school, tests aren't perfect, some are better than others, etc. Sticking with this metaphor, in school you can "study for the test", possibly even getting a good grade on it without being truly good at the subject. (Trial dog, in the bad sense.) A variety of tests usually gives a more accurate assessment. And we all know people in school who know the subject, but they don't test well. (Work dog that doesn't do well at trials.) But, in my experience anyway, the very best students know the subject inside and out AND can consistently crush the tests.

 

charlie torre

[Sue R]

Annette, I just love your comment on this.

 

As a small-time practicing farmer and a very small-time novice trialler (trialling is not my goal with my dogs, our farm work is), this question Steve raised has fascinated me.

 

Now I have your comment to ponder about, as well!

[Tassie]

Green here too ? but enjoying the discussion. Renee?s post rang real bells with me. My little bitch (not working bred ? hey, I didn?t know any better) is turning out to be a reasonably handy little farm dog, but I doubt she will ever make a trial dog ? especially here, where the only game in town is the highly choreographed 3 sheep trial. Of course, having a novice handler hasn?t really helped either ? but we can get most jobs done, in a reasonable sort of fashion ?but definitely not according to the ?textbook?. The more work she gets, the more confident she becomes, especially in situations where she?s done the job before. And for the most part, we are working with big mobs - 100 - 350, and only occasionally with smaller gorups, unless we deliberately set out with smaller packets for training.

 

And I guess this raises another point ? the farm dog who is likely to stay on that particular farm, gets used to the topography of the farm, the layout of the paddocks, yards, etc., and the characteristics of the sheep on that farm ? in our case, Saxon Merinos. The trial dog OTOH has to be confident and versatile enough to adapt to different sheep, different venues and much more pressure in terms of time/handler?s nerves etc. ? apart from the precision of the work required.

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

OK here I am again : ) Just thinking with a very open mind. I guess we (humans) used to have to take our stock to market on foot and through villages so farm dogs would get that experience of terrain versatility naturally-and at market is where farmers might trade sheep. Something we don't do anymore. Farmers of old probably selected breeding dogs that handled novel situations well. You'd hate for all hades to break loose in the middle of a town. I guess I'm talking from experiences (things I've seen) in the North of Spain where they still have to do things very archaeicly (is that even a word?). They don't use BCs there tho- little wire haired fuzzy dogs that herd very well and handle large flocks also.

[Susan M. & Skipper, Annie and Ben]

Ok, another extremely green novice handler here.

 

I, too, have been following this thread with a high level of interest and it made me wonder if there are any top level open trial dogs whose lives haven?t involved living and working on a farm? Can a dog and handler team, without every day, real life experience, make it to the top of the trial world? It seems to me that the real life farm work is necessary as a foundation to trialing. Wouldn?t polishing those skills for the trial field be the next step for winning a trial, if that was one?s goal?