DeltaBluez Tess Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 I am going to do a blog on BYB. I would like input from you folks but keep it civil and polite. Personal experiences only. What makes a BYB? (BYB = back yard breeder)? What experience have you had with one.? Did you get a dog from a BYB and details? Did you sell a dog/puppy and the person became a BYB. Details and how did you stop it, if you did. If not, what happened? How about breeding because the dog looks pretty/handsome? How about breeding for color? How about breeding because they need the money? How about breeding because they want to see puppies being born? How about breeding because they can get $500-650 per puppy? How about breeding because they have a bitch and someone else has a male? What health tests did your BYB do? Or not do? If they did not do any health tests, the reasons why. Other questions you can add to this. Keep on topic, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 I had a man and his son stop by to admire my dogs as we were playing outside one day. They proudly announced that they, too, were getting a Border Collie - a puppy from a BYB I'd heard about in a rural area not too far away. Lots of white on it, a white head, really pretty they said. A few months later, they stopped on their way by again - wanted to know if I wanted their young dog. Out of control (how about training it?) and apparently deaf (double merle, maybe - the breeder said nothing about potential problems with white heads). Maybe not pertinent to your blog (and you go, Diane, I know you will do it up well) but just another small example of poor breeding, irresponsibility, and a naive buyer who isn't taking their responsibility seriously either. It seems that virtually everyone who learns we have two dogs of the same breed, wants to know if we are breeding them. I guess BYB is an assumption, a normalcy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Missy came from what I would classify as a BYB. Her father came from pretty decent lines, but her mother's 4 generation pedigree went back to the same 2 dogs. She was given to me because she wouldn't work for her owner and didn't even like him. The story I got was that she tore a lambs ear when he started training her, he corrected her and she shut down. She was scared, wouldn't come out of her kennel and hadn't been out to potty that day because her owner wasn't sure she'd come back in to him. Umm, you've had a dog for 3 years and she won't even come to you? They raised club lambs and I'm assuming that BC pups were another source of added income for their part time farming venture. They had recently bred Missy's mother when I got Miss and let me know that a pup might be an option, but they'd just give me Miss if I was interested. They did no health checks AFAIK. I thought I was looking in a good place for breeders - the only places I looked where in Sheep! magazine and our statewide sheep breeders directory. I knew that they should be bred for work and that they needed a job, I just didn't know what all that entailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Dear Doggers, Our farm lies below the county road- in full view of passing Baptists. To reduce accidents I always breed in the backyard. Donald McCaig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
books Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Dear Mr. McCaig, Thank you for putting a big smile on my face this morning. Dear Doggers,Our farm lies below the county road- in full view of passing Baptists. To reduce accidents I always breed in the backyard. Donald McCaig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicheleS. Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 I'm not quite sure what would specifically would constitute a backyard breeder, I am suspicious of anyone who breeds. Maybe that's because there are things that *didn't feel right to me* with any breeder I've ever met. Maybe my experiences have only been with the not-so-reputable breeders. (1) With the breeder of my GSD's, I felt odd that she kept a kennel full of dogs and bred a couple of litters a year (rotated different females bred every couple of years). She did do required health tests and showed proof. Very common practice for her to breed to other's dogs to "better" her lines to improve appearance and temperment of her dogs. I know this was one of her main ways of making money and that felt wrong to me. She also was involved in various dog sports (agility, obedience, schuzthund). She was very supportive with any of my questions I had and even helped me find a wonderful obedience instructor. Both of the dogs I got from her lived very long and I would say healthy lives. So this was 17 or so years ago, the shepherds were my very first dogs as an adult and I don't think I knew any better to question the things that made me uncomfortable. I do know that if I were to want another GSD, it wouldn't come from her. (2) I have a re-homed aussie. Single mom working all day with a 3 yr. son owned her. Bad situation (dog bit kid in the face), couldn't keep the dog, had no idea what she was getting into but got the dog because she thought 'the aussie was pretty'. (I did contact the breeder of this dog and he was very upset she was rehomed and even admitted to me that he felt in his gut he shouldn't sell this aussie to this lady. I told him he should have gone with his gut feeling. He was happy I had the dog now. He was a cattle farmer, bred every few years. I felt good about this guy.) 7 years later I'm contacted by former owner of my aussie, out of the blue, and given an update on her and her family. Married with twins in addition to the kid she had. Twins are probably around 4-5 years old. She has another aussie and better yet (sarcastic) bred the thing because 'her dog is a nice dog and she wanted the kids to experience the whole puppy thing'. Even better yet one of the pups was returned and she has her hands full now. I live in a different state now and she all but begged me to take the returned pup! I seriously think she hasn't a clue to know any better. I'm still in contact with her, she still has both dogs and I guess my approach is to be civil and try to educate her when the opportunity arises but I really wonder if being nice instead of blunt is getting through to her. (3) The BC I have came from a definite money-making operation. Horrible and I feel I rescued him (probably my excuse and a way I can justify getting a dog from there). I went to meet the woman at her place. BC's everywhere. Lots loose on the property. Lots more in the barn/kennel runs. She had 3 litters at once and Chase was one of 3 "leftover" puppies. I left that day without a dog. It all felt wrong. In a moment of weakness I succumbed to my husband's begging went back on the spur of the moment to get that 5 month old puppy. Besides his shyness, I wonder what the future holds as far as his health. The seller never mentioned any kind of health screenings on the dogs she bred. I wouldn't go back there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandyleew Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 I got Brew from a shelter and the owner left his papers with him. I called the breeder on the papers to try and find out more about him and also to let the breeder know that a dog that he sold was turned in to the shelter. He didn't care one bit that Brew had been mistreated and then turned in to the shelter. He had 2 dogs and bred them to sell. They did occasionally help move the cattle at his mother;s farm, but other than that they sounded bored. He told me how they dug holes all over his yard. I have since seen quite a few dogs that look a lot like Brew at the very same shelter. One of them could have been his twin. To me, this is definitely a backyard breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scomona Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Did you get a dog from a BYB and details? We got Shiloh from a backyard breeder. We were looking for a Border collie or a Border Collie mix to work with my husband at the golf courses (where he consults) and to be a companion for his off road races/mountain biking as well as a pet. We were looking at Shelter for a pup and waited for about 2 months with nothing coming up. So then we started to look at Kijiji and online at breeders. We were pretty sure we wanted nothing to do with a breeder. At that time I didnt know about this site and was uneducated about "breeders". To me a larger breeder meant puppy mill and rescue was really the only option. On kijiji we came across an add for 1 BC pup, we called the family and they interviewed us ( activity level, why we want the dog, how many hours he would be left alone) and vice versa on the phone. We learned that they bread their family dog with a breeders dog and supplied the pups to farmers and families in Ontario. I didn't understand the importance about breeding for work at that time so we didnt ask about that at all. This family dog was not a working dog, she did agility and was a hiking/biking companion. We were still unsure about buying from a breeder so we asked a friends at the SPCA to look into it for us too. She did and gave us an ok and some tips on what to look for when we went to their house. We arrived to the house and met the family and children. The bitch was in the backyard and we met her and interacted with her for awhile. She was very friendly but mostly wanted to run her agility course and was a bit ball fixed. She was obedient and the family cared for her. Her one pup was there (last one) and he was 9 weeks old. He was running outside and playing with their daughter. Inside we asked to see where the pups slept..etc... they had a little area set up with puppy pads on one side and a larger sleeping and play area where mom and babies where overnight and during the day the pups were in there or outside. We asked why they bread their dog- they said for her temperament. We asked about the Dad and was told he was bread for his temperament as well and that he produced pups with good working ability(but obviously they didn't know about her working ability since she did agility only). We asked about health and hip/eye tests and were shown a clean bill of health from testing. They provided us with a link to the breeders site that the dad was on as well as his papers and lineage (which didnt mean much to us at the time). We signed a neuter contract and they asked for monthly updates for a few months and they "insured" his health for a year or so (that they would pay for anything that came up or we could return him). They gave us a basket with his food, treats, his favorite toy and his blanket as well as puppy pads. He had a microchip and they registered it all for us with our info and he had a vaccine shedule that we also kept to show to our vet (and they asked that we have a vet). We paid $600 Canadian. After we took him home they called us 2 days after to check in, then emailed us about once a month for 4 months- they also asked to check in on him at 6-8 months in person, which we were happy to agree to....it seemed like they really cared about him which made us feel ok about getting him from a back yard breeder. I don't think I would get another dog that way- we really lucked out with Shiloh... he is a good dog, who shows natural working ability when we have had him on sheep (only about 5 times). He is excellent with other dogs and people and kids...and very very sweet. His health has been perfect. Now that I understand more about the breed I would only rescue or choose a dog from a breeder with a working farm to ensure we were doing our part to support the longevity of such an amazing breed. I dont have time right now to go back over spelling and stuff.... I hope this helps.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Having a tough time thinking of a breeder that focuses on good working dogs that would not be classified by some as byb. Lots of AKC breeders that dot the "i"'s and cross the "t"'s health, contract, etc wise, but not many working breeders.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewie'sMom Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 I'm certainly no expert, but IMHO anyone who isn't breeding to improve the breed or use it for what it has been bred to do is a BYB. Good luck with your blog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest echoica Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Both of my dogs are rescues, but I can tell you what I do know or heard about the breeder Rikku came from even though I did not buy her from the breeder directly: She breeds the same red bitch every heat cycle. She advertises the pups on KIJIJI and sells them for $250-350. She lets the pups go at 5 weeks. A lot of the pups end up in rescue by the end of the first year so clearly her screening process is something to be desired (the girl who originally purchased Rikku from the breeder and consequently gave her up did not vet her or socialize her in any way for over a month!!). I have no idea if her dogs are working or if they are registered with anyone. I contacted her shortly after I got Rikku asking to see pictures of the sire/dam...a friendly email not to scare her off in case she is a BYB. 3 emails later she finally responds and asks ME for pictures of the puppy. I send them to her and never heard from her again -- she has not responded to subsequent emails. I can only assume she does not care that much for the pups she is producing nor the homes they end up in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLloydJones Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 What makes a BYB? (BYB = back yard breeder)? Not everyone uses the term exactly in the same way, but for me, BYB implies two things: small scale irresponsible breeding My ever returning foster, Rhys bach, is a product of a BYB. They owned his parents and kept him as their stud dog until, for unclear reasons, they dumped him in the pound. He had been kept in a small back yard (chained, because he would jump the wall) and had little or no socialization with people and was evaluated as fearful and scheduled for euthanasia. Our rescue had been in contact with the owners previously, so he was recognized when we pulled him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 My recent rescue came from a farm in PA. As far as I know both parents were on site and it was not a intentional breeding, when Rievaulx came to us at 5 months all the other 10 puppies were still at the farm. The dog spent his days tied up. Despite this Rievaulx is a really well balanced dog, and at 8 months has shown no issues at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Dear Doggers,Our farm lies below the county road- in full view of passing Baptists. To reduce accidents I always breed in the backyard. Donald McCaig This is quite potentially the funniest thing I have ever read. I would pay for this on a bumper sticker. Sorry for the hijack, Diane... Did I tell you about the people who said I could tape Hoot's ears if they didn't stand up, and who were dismayed to find Nick was castrated when he was such a "rare" color? They wanted to breed their dog to him (nevermind that, all other things aside, Nick is a recessive dilute! Genetics, anyone?) They looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language when I asked them about the dog's working ability. BYB in the making... All this took place at the dump, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted March 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Dear Doggers,Our farm lies below the county road- in full view of passing Baptists. To reduce accidents I always breed in the backyard. Donald McCaig Did your kids at least work? ;-) Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 I was going to mention John's foster Rhys, but he beat me to it. He is a great example of what happens to a dog that's single purpose is to make money for the owners by breeding. John has brought him a long way from where he was, but the effects of his former life will always be there. A BYB IMHO is someone who breeds dogs over and over again, with no concern for anything besides profit. They don't care about the physical or mental health of the dogs or placing of pups, just the money the dogs bring in. I don't think one litter makes you a back yard breeder, maybe a poor decision maker, but not a back yard breeder. For example, my crazy girl Ceana was the result of a poor breeding decision, not a BYB IMO. Both her parents were worked on their respective farms, but, from what I have learned here, not nearly to the caliber a breeding worthy border collie should. The women who put their two together to get my looney bin truely thought they were doing a good deed since the sire of Ceana's mom was imported from Scotland and was "from good working lines." I was uneducated on border collies and believed them whole heartidly because they believed what they were saying as well. They did this only once and never planned to do so again. I still believe that they would never breed again because we bought Ceana for $100. It was enough to cover puppy shots, food, and the up coming spay of Ceana's mother. In rescue here in Arizona I see more of these singular poor breeding decisions resulting in puppies entering our rescue. BYBs are not numerous, or at least well known. We have gotten a suspicous amount of white headed BCs and Aussies between the two Aussie rescues and our border collie rescue. I wouldn't be surprised if we keep splitting litters from some BYB, but a hunch isn't evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluj Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 A BYB IMHO is someone who breeds dogs over and over again, with no concern for anything besides profit. They don't care about the physical or mental health of the dogs or placing of pups, just the money the dogs bring in. I don't think one litter makes you a back yard breeder, maybe a poor decision maker, but not a back yard breeder. I'd actually go the other way, and call the first one a puppy miller. A backyard breeder to me isn't someone who makes a large portion of their income off of their dogs (puppy mill again), but someone who doesn't understand or care about the effect of their decisions on the gene pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 How about this? There's a website that shows the following: Litter DOB: 12/30/09 - 4 pups available Litter DOB: 1/17/10 - 3 pups available Litter DOB: 2/2/10 - 5 pups available Litter DOB: 3/21/01 - 5 pups available Litter DOB: 3/25/10 - 8 pups available Litter DOB: 3/28/10 - 6 pups available Litter due: 4/1/10 Fancy website. Cute photos. Most adults are Optigen and OFA tested. All ABCA registered, of course. Puppies are clicker trained to come, sit, lie down, etc. Are the adults proven workers? Largely unknown. If they were, would that be okay, then? Respectable breeder? BYB? Puppymill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 I got my boy, Rig, from what I'd call a BYB. I don't know the reasons behind the breeding, probably just that she could, and there was a couple of bucks to be made. Most support questions get an initial response, but follow up questions have been ignored. My ex GF found him for me on Kijji, I believe, and she handled the details since I was pretty new to BCs. However, Rig is the most wonderful dog ever, and my heart dog. He's the smartest thing ever, and loves me more than life itself. He has some great dogs in his past (3 &4 generations ago - Amanda Milliken dogs, Allister McRae dog, other Intnl champs) and actually shows some potential for stock work. Will he be great? I guess that depends on me. Am I sorry I got him? No. Although I wouldn't have made that choice now, knowing what I do. My latest pup is out of Peter Gonnet's lines, and she's a great dog too, but Rig is special and I'm glad we found each other. I recall tests were done, but I haven't seen documents. If he turned out to be a great open dog and a candidate for breeding, I would have to assume no tests were done and retest(not likely to ever be an issue -lol) I brought him home as a companion dog, and he is perfect for that. The fact that he excels at agility and flyball, and hopefully stock one day, are just added bonuses in my journey with BCs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 How about this? There's a website that shows the following: Litter DOB: 12/30/09 - 4 pups available Litter DOB: 1/17/10 - 3 pups available Litter DOB: 2/2/10 - 5 pups available Litter DOB: 3/21/01 - 5 pups available Litter DOB: 3/25/10 - 8 pups available Litter DOB: 3/28/10 - 6 pups available Litter due: 4/1/10 Fancy website. Cute photos. Most adults are Optigen and OFA tested. All ABCA registered, of course. Puppies are clicker trained to come, sit, lie down, etc. Are the adults proven workers? Largely unknown. If they were, would that be okay, then? Respectable breeder? BYB? Puppymill? How about $50K + / year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 How about $50K + / year... Multiply that number by 3 and you have a more accurate estimate. Those pups sell for $1200 each, and that is only a small portion of the annual puppy count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Multiply that number by 3 and you have a more accurate estimate. Those pups sell for $1200 each, and that is only a small portion of the annual puppy count. Well, I was crediting for the potential of working dog prices....either way, it's a full time job or career breeding dogs, not a BYB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 either way, it's a full time job or career breeding dogs, not a BYB Ok ... so is that a good thing then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Ok ... so is that a good thing then? Is it a good thing to be able to make a full time career out of dog breeding, is that your question? edit...sorry...my spelling sucks today, just like every other day it seem...I don't know why I keep typing carrier when I'm thinking career... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Yeah, I guess. I mean ... what's the difference between "mass production," "puppymilling" ... or a "career"? Is a "career" just a very busy BYB? Is it perhaps a fancy name for a puppymill? Or is it someone with exceptional knowledge of breeding puppies that should perhaps open a school so others can follow the same career path? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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