BYB

[Guest echoica]

Yeah, I guess. I mean ... what's the difference between "mass production," "puppymilling" ... or a "career"? Is a "career" just a very busy BYB? Is it perhaps a fancy name for a puppymill? Or is it someone with exceptional knowledge of breeding puppies that should perhaps open a school so others can follow the same career path?

 

I call that selfish puppymilling. Turning out that many dogs that quickly has nothing to do with improving the breed nor turning out exceptional pups. Health tested or working or whatever. It's a business of pet supply and demand. And to sell that many in such a short time...well, I would find it hard to believe that the screening process is something I would agree with...and then how many of those dogs changes hands in the first year or end up in the shelter because of it?

[Alchemist]

How about this? There's a website that shows the following:

 

Litter DOB: 12/30/09 - 4 pups available

 

Litter DOB: 1/17/10 - 3 pups available

 

Litter DOB: 2/2/10 - 5 pups available

 

Litter DOB: 3/21/01 - 5 pups available

 

Litter DOB: 3/25/10 - 8 pups available

 

Litter DOB: 3/28/10 - 6 pups available

 

Litter due: 4/1/10

 

Fancy website. Cute photos. Most adults are Optigen and OFA tested. All ABCA registered, of course. Puppies are clicker trained to come, sit, lie down, etc.

 

Are the adults proven workers? Largely unknown. If they were, would that be okay, then?

 

Respectable breeder? BYB? Puppymill?

 

Oh but, but... to quote from this website: [Father] will be OFA'd again at age 2. [From which we can infer that they're breeding a male who has not yet reached this birthday]. CLICK HERE to see a video clip of [Father's] 1st herding lesson on sheep. ...This was also his first time in a big field. He had been worked in the round pen before.

 

This counts as "proven", doesn't it? He's been in a "big field"... once? (sarcasm intended... ). IMO, the facility referred to above is a puppy mill, not a BYB. A "high class" one, perhaps, but a puppy mill all the same. Certainly not an operation I'd want a dog from - how much socialization can you expect with all these puppies on the ground at once? How many dogs, total, do you think they have?

 

Here's another example from closer to me, perhaps not as egregious. Pups are not as pricey ($500 and up, depending on color):

 

Available Aug 22, 2009: 3 pups

Aug 13, 2009: 6 pups

July 27, 2009: 3 pups

Feb. 22, 2009: 5 pups

Feb. 9, 2009: 4 pups

Jan. 6, 2009: 7 pups

Dec. 24, 2008: 7 pups

Oct. 19, 2008: 5 pups

 

That's 42 pups within a one-year period. Won't make them rich, but the total sales would be over $20K. All are joint ABCA/AKC registered, all parents' hips X-rayed and DNA tested for eyes. Pedigrees of parents are posted. But it's still so many puppies (they have two litters of Border collies and one of Aussies on the ground right now) that I'd still call them a puppy mill. No health guarantees (other than the fact that they've been cleared by the vet the day they go up for sale on the internet).

 

What's interesting to me is that some of the parents come from good working lines (though they don't work their dogs themselves - this particular operation seems to largely breed for the "sports" market). I know it's hard for breeders to control what people do with dogs they buy, but I'd be horrified if I were a breeder and found that one of my dogs was being used to churn out pups to be registered with AKC in what I essentially view as a puppy mill, no matter how sanitary the conditions. I guess it's why spay/neuter contracts (with "do not register progeny with AKC" clauses) were invented.

 

Getting back to the original thread - I can see where there might even be advantages to acquiring a dog from a BYB over one of these "high class" puppy mills. Certainly I would argue that the "high class" mills aren't breeding for the right thing - working ability - though they are admittedly checking hips, which presumably BYB's aren't. Both are likely to be breeding for traits that are at best immaterial, such as coat color (high class puppy mill) or "because they want to replicate their own dog" (BYB). The biggest difference I see is that at least with a BYB you've got a chance of a puppy that's had some early socialization, and hasn't been raised in a kennel all day stressed by 50 dogs barking all around it.

[Debbie Meier]

Yeah, I guess. I mean ... what's the difference between "mass production," "puppymilling" ... or a "career"? Is a "career" just a very busy BYB? Is it perhaps a fancy name for a puppymill? Or is it someone with exceptional knowledge of breeding puppies that should perhaps open a school so others can follow the same career path?

 

 

Your being sarcastic, it's all in the eye of the beholder, puppymill has different definitions to different people. No different then telling the difference between who should and who should not be breeding their personal trial dog and whether or not you feel that dog is of breeding quality or not.

[jdarling]

Debbie, I'm not being sarcastic at all, and I'm sorry you feel I am. I've never heard someone call it a "career" of breeding dogs. Therefore, I was asking you what you feel the difference is between a puppymill, a byb, and a "career" is.

[Debbie Meier]

Debbie, I'm not being sarcastic at all, and I'm sorry you feel I am. I've never heard someone call it a "career" of breeding dogs. Therefore, I was asking you what you feel the difference is between a puppymill, a byb, and a "career" is.

 

 

Sorry if I mistook your post, to me if you can make a living at it it is a career. Regardless if a person agrees with your career path it's still a job or profession.

 

As to the difference, there may not be a difference, it's all in the eye of the beholder

[juliepoudrier]

Yeah, I guess. I mean ... what's the difference between "mass production," "puppymilling" ... or a "career"? Is a "career" just a very busy BYB? Is it perhaps a fancy name for a puppymill? Or is it someone with exceptional knowledge of breeding puppies that should perhaps open a school so others can follow the same career path?

To me there's no difference. If a breeder is putting the number of litters on the ground that you and others have posted, they are a mass producer of puppies (I'll use the term mass production so as not to offend anyone's sensibilities by labeling what is clearly a mill a mill; after all, mills are commonly understood to mass produce items of any sort, but since apparently some believe that the term should be applied only to those operations that keep their breeding machines in horrific conditions, I'll just stick to mass producer). As I said in another thread, a mass producer of puppies is unlikely to be able to prove the value of the breeding (that is, that the cross produced the type of puppies that was expected--from a working standpoint or really any standpoint, because to prove anything, you'd have to put the time into the animal to see what it can do--and there's just no time if you're churning out somewhere around a litter a month). It's also unlikely that a mass producer can adequately screen all the homes pups are sold to. They're too busy whelping out bitches to spend a lot of time screening future homes for all those pups. As Debbie noted, if can be a lucrative business. And with those numbers of pups on the ground, socialization could also be at a minimum.

 

To me, a BYB is someone who has a dog or maybe a pair and they just breed them occasionally because they want more "just like Sadie," or their friends and neighbors like their dog so much that they decide to breed so said friends and neighbors can also have little Sadies. While I don't agree with BYBs, I think they should be less harmful to the breed simply as a matter of scale. They aren't producing pups at the rate of a mass producer. They probably do have the time and desire to "raise the puppies underfoot." A BYB may give more or less thought to the consequences of the mating, but is no more likely than a mass producer to actually prove the pups at any sort of work. In other words, while BYBs may be the lesser evil in many ways, they still aren't a shining example of good, responsible breeding.

 

I was discussing with my sister not too long ago a mutual friend who occasionally breeds her bitch (she has a male and a female, not border collies, but small companion dogs). She probably gets ~$1200+ per pup and if she doesn't do any testing and owns both sire and dam, her monetary outlay is small and even the occasional litter can be mostly a moneymaker for her (assuming nothing goes wrong during whelping or with the litter). While neither of us would do this sort of thing, we came to the conclusion that we could see the appeal to folks who do. After all, even if Sadie's pups are sold for $200 each, a litter of 8 grosses $1600, with little effort if no testing or anything is done. And if you have a litter of four small companion dogs that sell for $1200 each, then you've cleared $4800 (more or less; if you figure you're feeding the dogs anyway, it's really just a matter of slightly increased feeding costs, maybe minimal vaccine costs, and so on till the pups can be placed in their new homes). So it's no wonder BYBs exist.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

No different then telling the difference between who should and who should not be breeding their personal trial dog and whether or not you feel that dog is of breeding quality or not.

I disagree with this. Presumably if you (the generic you) are breeding your own trial dogs regardless of what anyone else thinks of them, you're at least starting from some sort of minimal standard (whatever that is, but apparently it would be a working standard at least). A BYB or mass producer is generally not even concerned with that minimal standard as a starting point.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

I disagree with this. Presumably if you (the generic you) are breeding your own trial dogs regardless of what anyone else thinks of them, you're at least starting from some sort of minimal standard (whatever that is, but apparently it would be a working standard at least). A BYB or mass producer is generally not even concerned with that minimal standard as a starting point.

 

J.

 

Yes, you may disagree, but how often do you hear negative about the person breeding their Pro-novice trial dog and referring to them as just byb's?

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is not set mold, it's all relative based on the individual evaluater. (did I spell that right?)

[juliepoudrier]

Personally I have never heard them called BYBs. People might disagree with the practice and I wouldn't necessarily call it a great breeding choice, but I don't routinely refer to such breeders as BYBs.

 

As for relatives, I think using that claim is just a form of cop out. If I could find Eileen's post where she discusses the whole concept of "relativeness" I'd re-post it here because I think she made a good point. I think most people know what a mass producer is, no matter how they keep their dogs, and most people also have a fairly standard definition of BYB. If you personally choose to take a different meaning from the most common usage, that's your choice of course, but it won't change the more commonly held perceptions.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Personally I have never heard them called BYBs. People might disagree with the practice and I wouldn't necessarily call it a great breeding choice, but I don't routinely refer to such breeders as BYBs.

 

As for relatives, I think using that claim is just a form of cop out. If I could find Eileen's post where she discusses the whole concept of "relativeness" I'd re-post it here because I think she made a good point. I think most people know what a mass producer is, no matter how they keep their dogs, and most people also have a fairly standard definition of BYB. If you personally choose to take a different meaning from the most common usage, that's your choice of course, but it won't change the more commonly held perceptions.

 

J.

 

So answer this, if the average person feel that mass breeders are mills and mills are bad why are the examples stated above still operating on a retail basis? It's not like they are hiding behind a pet store or wholesaler. Is it any different then those that claim that a vast majority of the population was against the healthcare bill? Yeah, maybe a vast majority of the people they polled or that they mingle with, but how big is that sample and how diverse is it compared to the general population?

 

That is just like those that say a Commercial Breeder is a fancy term for a Puppy Mill, it's not true, not even close. We have a piece of paper taped in plain view on our window licencing us as a commercial breeder, so does that mean we are a puppy mill? We breed working dogs, some may not agree with our breeding decisions, but ultimately our decisions produced 3 puppies that were available to the retail market last year, all three are in working homes, not trial homes, working cattle ranches. If you lived here in Iowa and owned more then 3 unaltered dogs you too would have the honor to hold the title of Commercial Breeder. Sorry to be touchy about it, but it kinda hits close to the heart. I have a feeling that most all of us that have more then a couple of unaltered companion dogs will be holding commercial breeders licenses nationwide, maybe not.

 

The examples above make my head spin, I couldn't imagine having that many pups, what really amazes me is the number of buyers they have buying them, exactly why is that.

 

eta: Sorry to Diane for going off topic. Me bad, and me done, gotta get to work, the leather shop is calling custom harness leather halter/bridle combination in mid production...

[juliepoudrier]

So answer this, if the average person feel that mass breeders are mills and mills are bad why are the examples stated above still operating on a retail basis? It's not like they are hiding behind a pet store or wholesaler.

 

I think you already know the answer to that question, thanks to the quote often attributed, correctly or not, to P. T. Barnum: "There's a sucker born every minute." I think many of those folks would answer as you have in some of your previous posts--something along the lines of "this isn't a true puppy mill because the dogs aren't living in cramped cages in filth" or something similar. They want instant gratification and that slick website doesn't show the dirty underbelly of the operation, so to speak. They don't have to think about it because it's not right there in front of them. Heck, even Pet Pad names the supplier of its puppies on their website. It's a "family operation" (you know, just like the good old family farm, except in this case the product is puppies and lots of 'em). They are using marketing principles to make people feel good about where the puppies come from, even though realistically a family of four that is producing puppies from 10 breeds of dogs on a scale that can keep a steady supply going to the pet store couldn't possibly be raising and keeping them in a manner that the pet store would like website readers to believe. But people will believe what they want, and if they want that puppy, they'll rationalize it away, with or without the store's (or mass producer's website's) help.

 

That is just like those that say a Commercial Breeder is a fancy term for a Puppy Mill, it's not true, not even close. We have a piece of paper taped in plain view on our window licencing us as a commercial breeder, so does that mean we are a puppy mill?

 

Just because the State of Iowa(?) calls you a commercial breeder doesn't make you a mill. And I kind of figured there was a reason behind your sensitivity to this issue. But in the minds of most people, commercial breeder will likely be equated with mass producer. You know, however, that you are NOT a mass producer of puppies, so what your state calls you in order to license you isn't completely relevant. I believe the true mills (mass producers) in Missouri and Kansas are also considered commercial breeders. And just because a slip of paper sits in your kennel window doesn't mean you have to refer to yourself as a commercial breeder on forums such as this or to potential puppy buyers. If it really bothers you, you could also post next to the license a paper with the relevant passages from the state code that defines "commercial breeder." That should make it quite clear to anyone coming on your property where you fall under that definition.

 

We breed working dogs, some may not agree with our breeding decisions, but ultimately our decisions produced 3 puppies that were available to the retail market last year, all three are in working homes, not trial homes, working cattle ranches.

 

At least the dogs are working.

 

If you lived here in Iowa and owned more then 3 unaltered dogs you too would have the honor to hold the title of Commercial Breeder. Sorry to be touchy about it, but it kinda hits close to the heart. I have a feeling that most all of us that have more then a couple of unaltered companion dogs will be holding commercial breeders licenses nationwide, maybe not.

 

But that's by a state's definition. Yep, I would be called a commercial breeder since I have (at the moment) three unaltered dogs. Soon enough that will change to just one unaltered dog. But since I'm not producing a gazillion puppies a year, I don't think I'd let it bother me if the State of North Carolina wants to call me a commercial breeder on the basis of what I own and don't breed. I think there are probably more important things to worry about.

 

The examples above make my head spin, I couldn't imagine having that many pups, what really amazes me is the number of buyers they have buying them, exactly why is that.

See my answer to your first question. People don't often look at the big picture. They want what they want and they want it now. They're used to buying stuff off the Internet and don't make the distinction between living, sentient beings and a book, music downloads, clothing, or electronics.

 

J.

[JaderBug]

As much as I never wanted to admit it, Jade's breeder was/is a BYB- however, I lucked out and got a dog with good working lines behind her. Had I known what I know now, I probably wouldn't have Jade. I think this breeder has gotten worse as time has gone on- we got our first dog (of 4) from him when I was probably about 7 years old. Looking back on their pedigrees, they have good lines, but now I see the breeder is registering with the AKC and advertises on one of those puppy sale websites, along with a bunch of cock-a-poos and morkipoos. Jade didn't come with any health guarantees, any contract, parents weren't health tested, etc. etc.

 

Otherwise, I am surrounded by BYBs/potential BYBs.

 

I know of a "breeder" who breeds bred Border Collies in a "because I have a male and female" manner- the puppies are extremely poorly socialized and poorly looked after- there were a few in a litter that he couldn't sell, the puppies fell into a well and drowned.

 

I also know of several people who have bought from BYBs around here- one person brought a puppy home at 5 or 6 weeks, the puppy became seriously ill and didn't get the care it should have- the puppy lived but is highly suspected of having parvo. This person is a smart person, but is completely clueless with this dog. More of an acquaintance than a friend, otherwise I would have helped more.

 

I have a lot of in-law BYBs. A sister-in-law breeds puggles (I've talked about this several times on here). She has two female beagles and a male pug. One female won't allow the pug to mate her, and the other has had six consecutive litters with no breaks in between, I believe she had her first litter when she was two. The dogs receive extremely little interaction from the family. I could continue, but it sounds like a broken record. These breeding dogs came from BYBs/puppy mills- I don't mean to be blunt but they are junk dogs, extremely poor representatives of their breeds. They breed for money, and because it's "fun".

 

I have a cousin-in-law that breeds Aussies. The dogs live at his parent's house and he breeds the females once a year. After a few years off, he just received a male puppy for his birthday that will be a "stud" dog. His dog aren't trained, aren't health tested, they don't work, they are there to breed. The puppy came from Indiana, they found him on a puppy-sale website, and the breeders sent him home at six weeks old. This cousin wanted me to find him a German Shorthair Pointer so he could start breeding those. I know that people looking for a GSP are usually looking for a hunting dog and want proven parents, and know full-well that he would not train the dog(s) to hunt, so I wouldn't look for a pup for him. He breeds for the money.

 

Seems that all of my in-laws think this type of breeding is acceptable.

 

I have another friend with a male "American Bulldog" (thought he was purebred, but at a year old he's developed some feathering and a longer coat... ) that wants me to find him a female to start producing puppies.

 

I have had ongoing battles with my husband in regards to breeding. He wants to breed puppies in order to make money, but after explaining that after all the health tests, etc. that there isn't usually a profit, he still wants to breed just to breed. Were planning on getting a GSD, and I can't count the arguments we've had about breeding or not breeding the dog.

 

I'm not sure how helpful this was, or how much it answered your questions, but these are my experiences with BYBs...

[Soda-pop]

What makes a BYB? (BYB = back yard breeder)?

 

A BYB is someone who doesn't breed for the sake of the betterment of the breed. They breed because they have dogs that are pretty, or because they have a bitch and their friend has a male or to see the miracle of birth or pretty much any reason other than to make the breed better.

 

What experience have you had with one?

As a shelter staff member, I have encountered numerous people who didn't want to s/n their dogs because they just wanted to have one litter. I remember in particular one family who had a sweet yellow lab female and were looking for a companion and were doing a dog introduction and we talked to them about why they needed to get their dog spayed and they didn't want to spay her because they wanted their kids to see the miracle of life. We explained why that wasn't a good idea, all the health tests (especially for a lab!) and all the labs in rescue. They were tremendously uneducated and thought the dog only went into heat for one week and didn't know what OFA certification was. Additionally, I am fairly certain that their dog was coming into heat at that point and they had no clue. The people were the epitome of BYBs.

 

Did you sell a dog/puppy and the person became a BYB. Details and how did you stop it, if you did. If not, what happened?

 

How about breeding because the dog looks pretty/handsome?

 

How about breeding for color?

 

How about breeding because they need the money?

 

How about breeding because they want to see puppies being born?

 

How about breeding because they can get $500-650 per puppy?

 

How about breeding because they have a bitch and someone else has a male?

 

Well, to the first question: No because I've never bred a dog. However, my own dog Soda-pop is from a puppy mill and her sire's breeder was byb who's offspring is now in a puppy mill. I did a lot research and tracked her down and let her know and she didn't seem overly concerned. She primarily sold her border collie puppies at horse auctions to people she hadn't met before. She also bred pugs.

 

As for the other questions: All of these things contribute to being a byb. As I stated, I believe breeding for anything other than the betterment of the breed makes you a BYB. If you have a great working dog who has great attributes and has achieved much, then that dog has great things to contribute to the gene pool then I believe that is a sound breeding. If you have a fantastic chihuahua that has a good temperament and is conformationally correct, then that dog can contribute greatly to the gene pool. I even believe that you have a great show border collie that is conformationally "correct" and has excelled in confirmation and has all the attributes that make a great confirmation border collie and you breed it to another conformation border collie then you are not a byb. You are not a breeder I would buy from but you are not a byb.

 

If you have a cool merle aussie and you breed it to a cool tri aussie that your neighbor has and both dogs are pretty nice and you're hoping to get some merles to sell and a puppy for yourself to keep because ol' Fluffy is so sweet, then yes, you are a BYB.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Everyone,

 

I appreciate trying to keep this on track and hearing about your experiences.

 

Diane

[jdarling]

I think there's quite a few of us who have bought pups from people in the past that we wouldn't buy from today. Would we call them BYB's? I don't know. I bought a pup from a guy in Georgia years ago. He didn't do any health testing, but he worked the male and the female. He didn't own his own stock, but hung out with people who did. He would answer all my emails, all my phone calls, send photos, etc. I don't remember what I paid for the pup, but I'd imagine it was probably in the $400 or $500 range. Where did I find his ad? On the internet in one of the agriculture papers or something I'm sure. Would I call him a BYB? Nah, probably not, but others would. Would I buy from him today? Probably not, but others would. The pup turned out to be severely dysplastic. He offered to take the pup back (but wouldn't promise that he wouldn't put her down, and I respected his honesty), and also offered to refund my purchase price so we could put it toward medical expenses, but I declined the offer. We had no contract, and I didn't feel it was his responsibility. The pup lives with my ex-husband. I know she dislocated one of her hips just as we split up, and he had the FHO done on the one hip and was scheduled to do the other.

 

If I were to ask the guy why he bred the litter, I'm not sure what he'd tell me. I do know that he would not say, "To better the breed." I know there are quite a few people who think a breeder's goal should be to "better the breed," and honestly, that grates on me like using the term "Border" grates on others. What is "bettering the breed"? Is there something wrong with this breed that needs "fixing"? Are there breeders who honestly feel that they can improve upon the result of hundreds of years of work done by the shepherds who depended on these dogs for their livelihood?

 

Diane, I think "What is a BYB?" is a great topic, although, it's quite a broad one and will probably attact all kinds of answers.

[juliepoudrier]

What makes a BYB? (BYB = back yard breeder)?

 

I think I've answered this already.

 

What experience have you had with one?

 

I have friends who would be considered BYBs, as mentioned earlier. I have tried to have discussions with these friends about the ethics of what they are doing, but it has mostly fallen on deaf ears. In one case, the person told me that she was breeding dogs who may not have been show quality (too much freckling, for example), but that at least were healthy examples of the breed. It's a little harder to argue with that, and it's now gotten to the point where we really just don't discuss it, for the sake of our friendship.

 

Did you get a dog from a BYB and details?

 

My first dogs came through rescues, so I have no idea of their history. As an adult new dog owner (perviously all dogs had been family dogs), I knew I didn't want to go through the whole puppy stage and since I didn't have a specific purpose in mind other than companionship, I went through rescue (all breed and later breed-specific).

 

As for having gotten a dog from a BYB, I have one who came to me as a rescue through a former vet. He had belonged to an older gentleman who died and whose wife subsequently couldn't take care of him. My vet begged me to take him, and so I did. I got his ABCA papers with him. Obviously I have no idea what the real intent of the breeders was, since I didn't speak to them directly, but it appears to me from the pedigree that this was the case of two people who had bought dogs from the same breeder and then later decided to breed those dogs, perhaps to get a pretty color, since he is red. The problem with this cross is that it was a niece to uncle breeding (inbreeding) and I suspect that's why my dog has some issues (OCD, fear aggressiveness, just plain oddity), although some of that could be a product of how he was raised. He is the only one of my dogs, however, who has so many issues, many of which I would consider to have a genetic basis. My intention was to take this dog and find a home for him, but I soon realized that he would be very difficult to place, so he has been with me for the past 10 years.

 

Did you sell a dog/puppy and the person became a BYB. Details and how did you stop it, if you did. If not, what happened?

 

No.

 

How about breeding because the dog looks pretty/handsome?

How about breeding for color?

How about breeding because they need the money?

How about breeding because they want to see puppies being born?

How about breeding because they can get $500-650 per puppy?

How about breeding because they have a bitch and someone else has a male?

 

IMO, none of these are valid reasons for breeding, even if they are all excuses peopple give for doing so. I suspect my rescue was bred for color.

 

As I noted, the friends who are BYB and who I've talked to about it claim that they are doing no great harm to the breed. And I have to admit that in some cases, these BYBs are actually trying to preserve more sensible examples of the breed (e.g., bloodhounds with less droopy eyelids = fewer eye problems; Cavalier King Charles spaniels with normal-sized heads but perhaps "mismarked" and so on). When confronted with these sorts of arguments, it's hard to make the case for them stopping their breeding practices. Consider someone who is a BYB but breeds German shepherds whose only "fault" was that their hindquarters weren't acceptable for show (i.e., the dogs have a more normal upright stance and good hips). Is that necessarily a bad thing? I'm not defending BYBs, but in some cases, I think it's possible that they are serving a purpose--that is, keeping some important genetic traits within the gene pool. But I also would say that these sorts of intelligent (for lack of a better term) BYBs are few and far between compared to the ones who are breeding just for money or because they have dogs with a functioning uterus and available sperm or neat colors and the kids need to see the "miracle of life." For the latter argument, I would suggest that parents avail themselves of some of the many resources available over the Internet, where they can see the miracle of life and even the miracle of development in utero without having to actually add to the pet overpopulation problem.

 

I also think some of the MAH discussions here have spoken to some of what you ask. Someone buys a dog from a breeder like MAH, or Swafford, with no guarantee that the information on the pedigree is correct, and then those folks go on to breed their dogs and so on. Even if the animals are healthy, the potential inaccuracies in the pedigree will tend to lead a lessening of the value (from a genetic standpoint) of the entire studbook. (This is probably a tangent of sorts, but I think many potential BYBs probably start out buying from less than reputable breeders to beging with.)

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

I know there are quite a few people who think a breeder's goal should be to "better the breed," and honestly, that grates on me like using the term "Border" grates on others. What is "bettering the breed"? Is there something wrong with this breed that needs "fixing"? Are there breeders who honestly feel that they can improve upon the result of hundreds of years of work done by the shepherds who depended on these dogs for their livelihood?

I think that "bettering the breed" is a sort of catch-all phrase that's intended to connote that the person doing the breeding is at least thinking about the qualities of the sire and dam and how putting those two together would work in terms of what you'd get in the puppies. And by "what you'd get" I mean working ability and not pretty colors or something similar. Do I think I "bettered the breed" in terms of improving on border collies as a whole with the one litter I produced? Not really. But I did my best to produce dogs who were better than both parents, and I think that's what the unfortunate term "bettering the breed" is intended to mean. I think it's perfectly acceptable for breeders to try to improve on the *individual* result given to us by hundreds of years of breeding for a purpose. So, for example, even though I consider the bitch I bred to be a very good dog, I also knew what her working faults were and when I bred her, I aimed for genetic combinations (traits in the sire) that would improve on those faults. So perhaps a better way to word it would be to breed to "better the dog" rather than "better the breed." The terminology achieves the same goal in some ways because the idea should be to produce pups that turn out to be as good or better than the parents, but it ignores the fact that to some, bettering the dog might mean aiming for a specific coat type or ear set, and this is probably why the terminology "bettering the breed" works a little better. Breeding to get a color or ear set certainly isn't improving on any valuable quality *in the breed,* whereas breeding for pups that are as good as or better than their parents (working ability) could, in the long run, improve the breed as a whole (after all, that't the breeding mindset that would have brought us the working dogs we know and love today--because the creators of the breed bred to improve on the previous generation). In fact, perhaps we should say that a breeder's goal should be to improve on the abilities of the previous generation for the purpose for which the breed was created. Unfortunately it's a lot longer and a lot less catchy than just saying "better the breed."

 

J.

[geonni banner]

I have a friend who is a BYB of Rough and Smooth Collies. Her breeding criteria are normal eyes, bomb-proof temperaments, good running gear and show-winning looks - in that order. Her dogs do not carry excess coat. She does not produce more than one or two litters in the same number of years. She screens prospective homes carefully, does spay-neuter contracts, accepts any dog of her breeding back at any stage of its life, provides excellent owner support and charges very reasonable prices for her pups. She does not breed for color or breed-ring fads. She does testing for eyes and hips. Her pups are well-socialized. She does not release pups before ten weeks, and will not air-freight. You want her pup - you go and pick it up.

 

Is she bettering the breed? I think so. In her small way. And she does well in the breed ring. Her pups have been and are assistance dogs, sport dogs (agility and obedience) and family pets. She does not do stock work. But some of her pups have gone to stock work training with their new owners and done pretty well. (Mostly smoothies.)

 

Given that the Rough Collie has always been a show dog - in particular a "head breed," I think she is doing a great job. If I wanted a Collie I would wait for one of hers. Wouldn't even look at any others. I can rely on her to provide a pup with sound hips, eyes and a well-balanced and functional mind and body - not common characteristics of that breed.

 

If she was breeding Border Collies it would not be enough. But as she produces show and companion dogs (and a lot more,) from a breed which does little else, I think she's doing a great job.

[Lana]

I would add another sub class to BYB. People who are not open handlers, and do not trial ISDS style of course. Often they have very limited if any success even in a lower class, and the same is true for the dogs being breed. The dogs have often only been "tested" on very dog broke stock( ranch work or trial field), and neither dog or handler has much real life stock experience.

 

"Success" is somewhat objective and may have different meanings to different people, but i think most of us have a pretty good idea what it is.

 

I think we should police our own back yard( working dogs) before we start going after all the other breeders of ill repute. Thou i do find the others unconscionable.

 

Lana

[AK dog doc]

What a BYB is to me is anyone who is intentionally breeding for any purpose apart from improving upon what their dog(s) already have in place. Motives like money, "wanting another dog like this one", "my mom/dad/sister wants a pup from them", color, looks, the whole stupid "miracle of life" argument (which always makes me want to suggest the parents then show their kids the miracle of death by going to a shelter and watching them euth pups who HAVE no homes, to which population the miracle-of-lifers may just have added)... those aren't good reasons to breed, IMO. If you have something in your dog which would be worthy of preservation, or could improve the breed as a whole, that's a different consideration. Very often still not a reason to breed, but at least a different consideration.

 

I'm not sure where I stand on people who have truly accidental breedings (not "I let my dog run loose and now she's pregnant", but "I confined my dog but something went wrong unbeknownst to me" cases.) In some of those cases, there was a reason the dog wasn't spayed while pregnant to prevent the litter; owners overseas, discovered late-term pregnancy on return; unobserved breeding where owners realize dog is pregnant late in gestation; owner knows dog is pregnant or has been bred, but intends possible future intentional breeding so doesn't spay; etc. Some of that is grey-zone for me.

 

As for looks... most puppies are cute. Being cute is part of the gig; it's a given, not a reason to breed. Most adult dogs are beautiful. Comes with the territory: A given, not a reason to breed.

 

I have three dogs from what might be considered BYBs. One was intentionally bred (three pups, one of which died; owners kept one pup and I took the other, in part becuase I really liked the bitch AND the male temperamentally; in part because I was looking for a dog at the time, and I was well acquainted with both parents' health and temperaments, as I'm their doctor.) The other two were accidental breedings: One BCxBC where the bitch was let outside by the three-year-old and the owner looked up from her kitchen sink only to see the dogs tied; one BCxWhippet where the owners were slightly too confident that a 6 foot fence would keep the dogs safely separated. The BCxWhippet I got as a yearling rescue (owners of the BC bitch kept him but both owners developed health concerns - one orthopedic, the other neurologic - when he was about 9 months old and could no longer safely cohabit with him. For the same reason, they also spayed their imported working stockdog - his mother - around the same time). The BCxBC... I think that breeder felt she was breeding two good dogs together to produce other good dogs, but I'm not sure what her criteria were for deciding that the dogs were good enough to be breeding-worthy. In part there was a perception that they had working ability, but this was not rigorously tested. Three litters were produced by that pair of dogs, 14 pups in total. The bitch is lovely, and I adore her, but I'm not sure how good a worker she would be with real work; some evident natural ability, but the work she was asked for was minor so I don't feel like that's a real assessment.

 

In the BYB cases, I would consider the breeders to have acted in a generally responsible manner about the fates of the puppies they produced; they would both have taken the pup back in case of a problem (in the BC case, they DID take pups back, twice, when the then-adult pup's circumstances changed, and they re-socialized the dogs and re-homed them successfully.) One pup from the BCxBC BYB dogs was bred (not sure how many pups, if any). There were no breedings from any littermate of my other two BYB-source dogs. (Since the BCxWhippet was truly an accidental breeding and the bitch was spayed after that, I'm not sure if that qualifies them as BYBs, strictly speaking, since it was unintentional and one-time-only.)

 

I do also have one stockdog, as most of you know, from Julie's good working bitch Twist. I trust that everyone here can guess the intentions of that breeding.

 

I have never bred a dog (accidentally or otherwise) and all the dogs I currently have are now spayed or neutered.

 

I have a number of clients who I think are BYBs. I always counsel them to think about the reasons they're breeding and advise them they need to be willing to take puppies back and so on, and in cases where health checks are a good idea we talk about that as well. I also tell them to set aside $1500 in case they need a C-section. That cools a few jets, let me tell you. Oh, and the person who brought in her Labradoodle and told me she was going to get another and breed them...? Once I explained to her what happens when you breed two F1 crosses together she got a lot less enthusiastic. She paid about $2000 for the Labradoodle (YIKES!) and her eyes were practically spinning around with excitement over the huge piles of money she was going to make by breeding two Labradoodles together.... until I rained on that particular parade. I'm such a spoilsport.

 

No matter how hard I try to get people to see reason instead of dollar signs, some people aren't going to listen. Some do, though. Some people WILL do the health checks, and will decline to breed if they come back poor. Some people have a romantic idea about someday breeding their dog and A) never get around to it, so eventually spay or neuter, or B ) have a reality check when the pup enters its "terrible twos" and reconsider, or C) do actually listen and decide that breeding is not for them. I think I reduce the number of BYBs in my small little circle of influence, but I certainly don't think I eliminate it entirely. I do at least try to get people to think about WHY they're doing the breedings they're doing, and to consider the consequences.

[geonni banner]

"I have a number of clients who I think are BYBs. I always counsel them to think about the reasons they're breeding and advise them they need to be willing to take puppies back and so on, and in cases where health checks are a good idea we talk about that as well. I also tell them to set aside $1500 in case they need a C-section. That cools a few jets, let me tell you. Oh, and the person who brought in her Labradoodle and told me she was going to get another and breed them...? Once I explained to her what happens when you breed two F1 crosses together she got a lot less enthusiastic. She paid about $2000 for the Labradoodle (YIKES!) and her eyes were practically spinning around with excitement over the huge piles of money she was going to make by breeding two Labradoodles together.... until I rained on that particular parade. I'm such a spoilsport."

 

AK Dog Doc

 

You know what the argument against breeding the pet dog that is most effective for deterring the average person? Poop math. "Six baby puppies poop six times a day and then (unless you are extremely vigilant) walk in it, sit in it and generally make for a lot of time getting acquainted with processed puppy food." This is terrifying to the great majority of them.

 

All the warnings about cost, the trouble of finding homes, the noise, and the work seem to pale to paltry insignificance against the approaching tsunami of s**t. They can't wait to get their bitch spayed!

[Soda-pop]

I think that "bettering the breed" is a sort of catch-all phrase that's intended to connote that the person doing the breeding is at least thinking about the qualities of the sire and dam and how putting those two together would work in terms of what you'd get in the puppies. And by "what you'd get" I mean working ability and not pretty colors or something similar. Do I think I "bettered the breed" in terms of improving on border collies as a whole with the one litter I produced? Not really. But I did my best to produce dogs who were better than both parents, and I think that's what the unfortunate term "bettering the breed" is intended to mean. I think it's perfectly acceptable for breeders to try to improve on the *individual* result given to us by hundreds of years of breeding for a purpose. So, for example, even though I consider the bitch I bred to be a very good dog, I also knew what her working faults were and when I bred her, I aimed for genetic combinations (traits in the sire) that would improve on those faults. So perhaps a better way to word it would be to breed to "better the dog" rather than "better the breed." The terminology achieves the same goal in some ways because the idea should be to produce pups that turn out to be as good or better than the parents, but it ignores the fact that to some, bettering the dog might mean aiming for a specific coat type or ear set, and this is probably why the terminology "bettering the breed" works a little better. Breeding to get a color or ear set certainly isn't improving on any valuable quality *in the breed,* whereas breeding for pups that are as good as or better than their parents (working ability) could, in the long run, improve the breed as a whole (after all, that't the breeding mindset that would have brought us the working dogs we know and love today--because the creators of the breed bred to improve on the previous generation). In fact, perhaps we should say that a breeder's goal should be to improve on the abilities of the previous generation for the purpose for which the breed was created. Unfortunately it's a lot longer and a lot less catchy than just saying "better the breed."

 

J.

 

Thank you, Julie. Yes, this, pretty much exactly. I've no talent for semantics and am most prone to using what seems most convenient and assuming everyone will catch on to what I'm meaning.

[flyer]

Well considering I just bought two pups in the last two years I can tell about some of my experiences.

 

My husband knew the first breeder thru work. Colt was bought at what some would call a puppy mill and yet...this was not the breeder's intention. Their business kind of devolved into this for awhile. It was not what looked like a puppy mill at all. Breeder presented themselves very responsibly. They said they only bred every once in a while for another dog for themselves and sold the rest of the pups to BC savvy homes. The breeder said all the right things and asked me all the right questions re: BC's. I loved the dogs there. The facilities were professional and clean and the dogs had large kennels and acres to run loose on both wooded and field. Very social dogs and well trained.

 

On my second visit, I had three, I saw there were more pups and another litter on the way. I was told Colt's litter was accidental. OK. I also kept meeting more and more dogs each visit. Three breeding bitches were Merles, all from working lines at least that is what I was told. Colt's mom was a merle. His dad a blk and wht. Truth is this breeder trained their dogs in another avenue and was very successful. That other avenue dried up for a while and so they bred pups for money. I dealt with this person at that time. Hard times. I never felt really good about buying Colt, I was worried, his dad was shy and all the other stuff that had leaked out, but because of the personal connection and because my kids were in on this too and because more information was leaking out so gradually we were in too deep to refuse him. He was our guy. I don't regret this as Colt is a wonderful dog, but now that I understand much more about the BC I wouldn't and in fact didn't do it again.

 

In my search for my second pup I was finding things that surprised me. BYB's that were breeding to winning trial dogs even though the bitches never worked, puppy mill/BYB's that used semen or breedings from very excellent lines, again winning trial dogs that would breed the dogs up country and then ship them down to another farm on the mainland for selling. I found two of these. One selling dogs from a state over. Studs being advertised by known handlers for breeding all over the countries.

 

It is not so cut and dry. BYB? Puppy mill? Reputable breeder of proven dogs? The lines can be very blurry and when one is a novice one can make mistakes easily no matter how responsible one wishes to be.

 

Bea, my youngest pup came from a dairy farmer who bred a litter every four or five years over the past forty years when he needed to start a new dog. A number of the sheep and dairy farmers in the area had numerous dogs from him over the years. They gave me references to check out and said I could go meet any of those dogs. So, no, not trial proven, but good useful working dogs that prove to be very capable on the farms.

 

I think your blog could be a very useful tool, Diane. I wish it was out there when I began my journey. I think one of the challenging things will be, to really make your point. I consider myself an intelligent well meaning person who researches everything, but it's kind of like having kids, one has to actually have one to totally get it.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I posted this in another thread but this also works here...

 

***********************************************************

 

My dear sweet, Tess, is a product of a BYB. The BYB had the dam that was well bred. She managed to con her out of a working farm up in Canada. The sire was imported from Germany and had lines to Price’s Davey. Tess’s litter was fed crappy dog food and when a lamb died, the dead lamb was tossed into the kennel for the pups to eat. They were not fed until the lamb was gone. At 8 weeks of age, the pups were outside and didn’t come when the BYB called. She had not trained them to recall at all and when they didn’t recall, she picked up a shotgun and shot the nearest pup. The pup survived but to this day has numerous pellets in her body. That was Tess.

 

They were mistreated and afraid of everything. The ABCA would not register the pups since the sire was not ABCA papered and the ABCA did not recognize the German Registry. She tried to sell the pups for a ABCA registered price. She sold all but two, Tess and Chip. The BYB did not do anything for the pups. She bred Tess’s dam over and over again with no regards to eyes, hips, working ability or temperament. It was just merely a money making product for her and when she was done with a bitch, she gave it away to the people on the reservation or shot them. Tess’s older brother (earlier litter) did not recall so she beat his head with a steel pipe until he bled from his nose and ears. I bought him and placed him with a couple that adored him. She told me all of this and more. There is a lot more but if I write it, my blood just boils.

 

The BYB would head to Arizona for the winter. Since she could not sell the last two pups she was going to shoot them. Through negotiations, we managed to buy Tess and Chip, just a few hours from being shot. As part of the deal, the pups would not enter rescue but placed via privately.

 

We planned to send Tess and Chip to the midwest. Needless to say, Tess wormed her way into our hearts and never left. Tess was afraid of life and would pee if you looked at her. She was afraid to get off the porch to go potty. She would run and hide behind you. She loved us dearly and the husband fell for her hard. I loved her dearly but he was smitten. She would see him and run and throw herself at him, he would pick her up, she would pee all over him and he would laugh and love her. Finally at a year old, she quit peeing. Her nickname was “Pee Pee Princess”

 

We spent many hours in her first year, taking her everywhere, stock work and training. She has repaid us tenfold with her love, making me a Open handler and taking care of me when I was so sick from the heart surgery. We joke that she is our child but with four legs. It’s true!

[rushdoggie]

oh man, how badly some people suck.

 

I posted this in another thread but this also works here...

 

***********************************************************

 

My dear sweet, Tess, is a product of a BYB. The BYB had the dam that was well bred. She managed to con her out of a working farm up in Canada. The sire was imported from Germany and had lines to Price’s Davey. Tess’s litter was fed crappy dog food and when a lamb died, the dead lamb was tossed into the kennel for the pups to eat. They were not fed until the lamb was gone. At 8 weeks of age, the pups were outside and didn’t come when the BYB called. She had not trained them to recall at all and when they didn’t recall, she picked up a shotgun and shot the nearest pup. The pup survived but to this day has numerous pellets in her body. That was Tess.

 

They were mistreated and afraid of everything. The ABCA would not register the pups since the sire was not ABCA papered and the ABCA did not recognize the German Registry. She tried to sell the pups for a ABCA registered price. She sold all but two, Tess and Chip. The BYB did not do anything for the pups. She bred Tess’s dam over and over again with no regards to eyes, hips, working ability or temperament. It was just merely a money making product for her and when she was done with a bitch, she gave it away to the people on the reservation or shot them. Tess’s older brother (earlier litter) did not recall so she beat his head with a steel pipe until he bled from his nose and ears. I bought him and placed him with a couple that adored him. She told me all of this and more. There is a lot more but if I write it, my blood just boils.

 

The BYB would head to Arizona for the winter. Since she could not sell the last two pups she was going to shoot them. Through negotiations, we managed to buy Tess and Chip, just a few hours from being shot. As part of the deal, the pups would not enter rescue but placed via privately.

 

We planned to send Tess and Chip to the midwest. Needless to say, Tess wormed her way into our hearts and never left. Tess was afraid of life and would pee if you looked at her. She was afraid to get off the porch to go potty. She would run and hide behind you. She loved us dearly and the husband fell for her hard. I loved her dearly but he was smitten. She would see him and run and throw herself at him, he would pick her up, she would pee all over him and he would laugh and love her. Finally at a year old, she quit peeing. Her nickname was “Pee Pee Princess”

 

We spent many hours in her first year, taking her everywhere, stock work and training. She has repaid us tenfold with her love, making me a Open handler and taking care of me when I was so sick from the heart surgery. We joke that she is our child but with four legs. It’s true!