BYB

[Smokjbc]

oh man, how badly some people suck.

 

Yeah, I was thinking that BYB was too nice a term for the monster in that story.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Yeah, I was thinking that BYB was too nice a term for the monster in that story.

 

 

Yes, that BYB was a monster. Her barn burned down and she taped it burning with the sheep inside, screaming. The neighbor came over, called the fire dept and wanted to get the sheep out. She wouldn't let them as she wanted to tape it.

 

When she told me the story of Tess, Chip and her brother, I wanted to hit her but kept mum so I could get the pups.

[flyer]

Yes, that BYB was a monster. Her barn burned down and she taped it burning with the sheep inside, screaming. The neighbor came over, called the fire dept and wanted to get the sheep out. She wouldn't let them as she wanted to tape it.

 

When she told me the story of Tess, Chip and her brother, I wanted to hit her but kept mum so I could get the pups.

 

Dear God. I am weeping. I just find your story so hard to get my head around. Thank goodness you found those pups and had the strength to not hurt that woman.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

What makes a BYB? (BYB = back yard breeder)?

My opinion- small scale, a few dogs. My opinion of a puppy mill- more than 5 breeding bitches (being bred a lot)

 

What experience have you had with one.?

 

Tess, need I say more?

 

Plus other local small BYB. One on a Island who got a AKC/ABCA and is breeding to any available male every chance she can get. Another one has a "pretty male" that is/going to bred to any female (he needs the money). More folks have a female and a male and breed them every year. They do agility and far back in the lines they have good lines. I got a couple of their dogs and rehomed them. None of the above do eye, hips or bred/trial for working ability.

 

Did you get a dog from a BYB and details?

Tess. Lucky for me she turned out to be the BEST.

 

Did you sell a dog/puppy and the person became a BYB. Details and how did you stop it, if you did. If not, what happened?

I sold one who bred him at 7 months (it didn't take) so she bred him at 1 yr old. Unproven and no tests done. She did it because she liked how he worked. Little did I know she would do that. She used to trial but was not successful. She is a piece of work.

 

How about breeding because the dog looks pretty/handsome?

Yep, I know of people who do that. Let's breed him becasue he/she is so pretty.

 

How about breeding for color?

I get people who want to buy a red dog or bred to my red male for color. I turn them down.

 

How about breeding because they need the money?

Make money off the back of your dogs. Plsu they don't care about the pups, just the money. I see it all the time

 

How about breeding because they want to see puppies being born?

I had one person ask to bred to one of my male to see that. I gave them a horror story plus a sotry/link of the web. I never heard back from them.

 

How about breeding because they can get $500-650 per puppy?

Yes, some people see pups sold for$500 to 1500 and think they can get that too. They think because I sell my pups for $500 that people should line up in droves for their pups for $500. Forget the fact that my dogs run in Open, eys/hips tests etc...they overlook that little bit of detail!

 

How about breeding because they have a bitch and someone else has a male?

A lot of this around here. I just heard of someone who wanted to bred to a male because he was pretty. Neither had any health checks and there is a possibility of CEA.

 

What health tests did your BYB do? Or not do? If they did not do any health tests, the reasons why.

None of the BYBs around here do any health check. One gals says "Her grandparents had their hips done and they were fine so my dog is fine. And she runs just fine. I dodn't do eyes" This person has put several litters on the ground. Sad to say, two of my pups were sold to her. She was responsible then but later turned into a BYB. She rides on my coat tails too.

 

Additionally I have done many years in rescue....;-(

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Dear God. I am weeping. I just find your story so hard to get my head around. Thank goodness you found those pups and had the strength to not hurt that woman.

 

Getty (spouse) and I were just talking about Tess last night.

 

We saved her life and she saved mine.

 

A couple of times when I was recovering from heart surgery, I felt like I was slipping away (dying) and I couldn't pull myself out of the dark abyss. My body just gave up.

 

Tess pawed me hard until I came back (so hard that it raised welts on my arms) and licked my face until I woke up. I truly believe if she wasn't there that I would not be here today.

 

Diane

[AK dog doc]

Yes, that BYB was a monster. Her barn burned down and she taped it burning with the sheep inside, screaming. The neighbor came over, called the fire dept and wanted to get the sheep out. She wouldn't let them as she wanted to tape it.

 

When she told me the story of Tess, Chip and her brother, I wanted to hit her but kept mum so I could get the pups.

 

That's when I'd snatch the camera out of her hand, smash it, and go help the sheep. I'd invite her - in fact, encourage her - to file a police report to recoup the cost of the camera, because I'd LOVE to see what they had to say about her allowing the barn to burn with live animals inside it while she stood by filming it for her own entertainment. I'd also be THRILLED to discuss it with the local paper and every farmer, pet owner and veterinarian in the county.

 

Bless your heart for having the grit to bite your tongue 'til you had the pups in hand, Diane, and bless Tess's heart too, for helping you when yours was ailling. Things like that restore my faith.

[geonni banner]

I think you should give this poor, deluded woman a nice box of chocolates. Laced with cyanide. Lots of it.

 

Burning sheep.

 

Shovel and shotgun mangled dogs.

 

Can't you at least report her to animal control? Or the police? Or your local hit-person?

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Lana

What about people who don't like trialing, and therefore don't? I don't think that automatically paints them as a less then satisfactory breeder. If the dogs that these people breed are proven workers, and that is after the potential buyer who knows how a dog should be worked, sees them work, why would there be a problem? For instance, what if you decided you didn't have time to trial your dogs, but bred either Kell or Blue, say a few years down the road? Sometimes life takes you in other directions. I wouldn't hesitate at ALL to buy a dog from you, even if you hadn't trialed that dog's parent(s).

I find that I prefer working my dogs to actual trialing, and I would imagine there are lots of folks out there just like me.

 

I think BYB is a perjorative broad sweeping term, when it's hard to actually define it. But, we know it when we see it.

 

 

 

I would add another sub class to BYB. People who are not open handlers, and do not trial ISDS style of course. Often they have very limited if any success even in a lower class, and the same is true for the dogs being breed. The dogs have often only been "tested" on very dog broke stock( ranch work or trial field), and neither dog or handler has much real life stock experience.

 

"Success" is somewhat objective and may have different meanings to different people, but i think most of us have a pretty good idea what it is.

 

I think we should police our own back yard( working dogs) before we start going after all the other breeders of ill repute. Thou i do find the others unconscionable.

 

Lana

[juliepoudrier]

Julie,

I can't speak for Lana, but obviously Kell and Blue have already been proven at home and on the trial field, so even if she did quit trialing them now and breed them later it wouldn't be a big issue. The problem with folks who don't like to trial, in general, is a problem that happens to many folks, even those who do trial: kennel blindness. It's all too common for folks to think that the work their dogs do at home is superb, when they themselves have never asked for superior work and so don't know what it is really. One of Twist's littermates helped her owner bring in the dairy cows every day. She was great at her job and he loved her and wanted another just like her and in fact asked the breeder to repeat the breeding, but I wouldn't count the work that particular dog did on a daily basis as the type of work that would prove the dog for breeding.

 

If Lana quit trialing and then bred an offspring of Kell or Blue who had never been trialed, I would look at her past trial record and the kind of daily work she has on her farm and conclude that she has the "chops" to determine whether a dog is breedworthy. Compare that to a handler who has never trialed above the lower levels or the farmer who has never done anything more than the daily routine on familiar ground and familiar stock and I personally see a world of difference.

 

For example, Henry Kuykendall rarely trials anymore, but my best dogs go back to his bloodlines. I would still buy a dog from him because he has put in the time (walked the walk) and is a stockman with more than 60 years of experience raising sheep and nearly that many years of experience breeding good working dogs. He's still raising sheep and using his dogs at home and in demos off the farm. So it's not really just about trial victories, but about clearly having the knowledge of the dogs and the work and experience to back up breeding decisions.

 

J.

[Lana]

The dogs have often only been "tested" on very dog broke stock( ranch work or trial field), and neither dog or handler has much real life stock experience.

 

 

Lana

 

 

Kelpiegirl, The above statment refers to ranch work and real life stock experience. I think more ranch dogs should be breed. By ranch dog i am describing a dog that has the stamina to work long hours, and the grit and talent to work on un dogged stock.

 

Time and again on these boards some of the biggest BYB shouters have no real trial or stock experience, 6 broke sheep, and yet still they breed dogs.

 

As you mentioned Blue and Kell, Blue is 10 and Kell is 8. Both are neutered, and have never been breed.

 

Lana

[stockdogranch]

^^^ I agree with Lana...and I think there are a lot of people out there who maybe even trial their dogs, maybe even in Open, but not notably. So they have "Open dogs," but the dogs are not what *I* would consider "breed-worthy." After all, all one has to do to have an "open trial dog" is to pay a few entry fees and show up. I see far too many of these dogs being bred, and bred, and bred. What to do about it? I don't know, as all of those people are certain their dog is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

I think that a trial is a great place to see what kind of chops a dog really has, since most of the time (out here, anyway) at a trial, the dog is faced with some pretty "recalcitrant" stock (sheep and/or cattle). And while a dog might look great at home, it is those situations with previously-unworked stock and unknown terrain that can really show whether or not a dog "has it." So in addition to a dog being able to work "all day long," a trial is a great proving ground.

 

I have no answer, just lots of observations...

A

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I wasn't there at the crazy BYB barn burning incident but heard lots about it from her friends as well as her. Sometime you have to bite your tongue...because if I had said anything, I would not have Tess.

 

She quit breeding dogs but started breeding Paint horses instead.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I would add another sub class to BYB. People who are not open handlers, and do not trial ISDS style of course. Often they have very limited if any success even in a lower class, and the same is true for the dogs being breed. The dogs have often only been "tested" on very dog broke stock( ranch work or trial field), and neither dog or handler has much real life stock experience.

 

"Success" is somewhat objective and may have different meanings to different people, but i think most of us have a pretty good idea what it is.

 

I think we should police our own back yard( working dogs) before we start going after all the other breeders of ill repute. Thou i do find the others unconscionable.

 

Lana

 

 

So true of the above. There are some who bred their Novice dog and state "she/he won an ISDS or USBCHA class".....forgetting to mention it was a Novice class. Or won in arena trials with dog broke sheep.

 

The proof is in the pudding. Look at the Finals and how many dogs have mother, son/daughter/grandpups running/qualified? How may dogs run in both venues (sheep and cattle) wiht success?

 

Too bad Lana fixed Blue as I would loved to have a Blue pup. I have always admired that dog....a tremendous heart.

 

I love Lana's Blue so very much that I got my Scott who is related to him.

[kelpiegirl]

That's what I was trying to say

 

For example, Henry Kuykendall rarely trials anymore, but my best dogs go back to his bloodlines. I would still buy a dog from him because he has put in the time (walked the walk) and is a stockman with more than 60 years of experience raising sheep and nearly that many years of experience breeding good working dogs. He's still raising sheep and using his dogs at home and in demos off the farm. So it's not really just about trial victories, but about clearly having the knowledge of the dogs and the work and experience to back up breeding decisions.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

I agree with you.

 

Kelpiegirl, The above statment refers to ranch work and real life stock experience. I think more ranch dogs should be breed. By ranch dog i am describing a dog that has the stamina to work long hours, and the grit and talent to work on un dogged stock.

 

Time and again on these boards some of the biggest BYB shouters have no real trial or stock experience, 6 broke sheep, and yet still they breed dogs.

 

As you mentioned Blue and Kell, Blue is 10 and Kell is 8. Both are neutered, and have never been breed.

 

Lana

[juliepoudrier]

That's what I was trying to say

But I think it's an important distinction between novices (or even some open handlers as Lana and Anna noted) who don't like to trial and still think they're qualified to breed dogs and old-timers who have already put their time in and are more likely to be qualified to breed dogs. More often than not, the former don't like to trial because they aren't very successful at it, whereas the latter may be accused of resting on their laurels, but thanks to the time they *did* put in and the experience they gained, they'd have a much better idea of what it takes to produce a good working stockdog. (Not picking on you; just trying to clarify what I see as a difference.)

 

J.

[flyer]

I wasn't there at the crazy BYB barn burning incident but heard lots about it from her friends as well as her. Sometime you have to bite your tongue...because if I had said anything, I would not have Tess.

 

She quit breeding dogs but started breeding Paint horses instead.

 

I have to ask because now I am very concerned for this woman's horses. Did anyone ever report her to the proper authorities such as the police. She admitted to and there were witnesses to various acts of cruelty on her part. This person should never be allowed to own another animal.

[Grizel]

For example, Henry Kuykendall rarely trials anymore, but my best dogs go back to his bloodlines. I would still buy a dog from him because he has put in the time (walked the walk) and is a stockman with more than 60 years of experience raising sheep and nearly that many years of experience breeding good working dogs. He's still raising sheep and using his dogs at home and in demos off the farm. So it's not really just about trial victories, but about clearly having the knowledge of the dogs and the work and experience to back up breeding decisions.

 

Exactly. Reputable breeders are people who have worked to acquire knowledge and experience enabling them to breed with an intelligent plan in mind. I see BYBs as people who haven't earned their stripes taking a privilege they haven't earned. It has nothing to do with the bloodlines of the dogs they are working with.

 

I have a friend who is a BYB of Rough and Smooth Collies. Her breeding criteria are normal eyes, bomb-proof temperaments, good running gear and show-winning looks - in that order. Her dogs do not carry excess coat. She does not produce more than one or two litters in the same number of years. She screens prospective homes carefully, does spay-neuter contracts, accepts any dog of her breeding back at any stage of its life, provides excellent owner support and charges very reasonable prices for her pups. She does not breed for color or breed-ring fads. She does testing for eyes and hips. Her pups are well-socialized. She does not release pups before ten weeks, and will not air-freight. You want her pup - you go and pick it up.

 

I wouldn't categorize your friend as a BYB. She sounds like a conformation breeder who is quite reputable under the definitions of the conformation culture. Because conformation breeding requires a plan, I don't categorize those breeders as BYBs (even if I personally don't agree with conformation as a major breeding goal). However, it sounds to me like your friend has her priorities in order, within the inherent limits of this kind of breeding.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I have to ask because now I am very concerned for this woman's horses. Did anyone ever report her to the proper authorities such as the police. She admitted to and there were witnesses to various acts of cruelty on her part. This person should never be allowed to own another animal.

 

She moved to Az and never kept in touch. That was about 11.5 yrs ago. We managed to get all of her dogs when she made the decision to bred horses and placed all of her dogs.

[flyer]

She moved to Az and never kept in touch. That was about 11.5 yrs ago. We managed to get all of her dogs when she made the decision to bred horses and placed all of her dogs.

 

Ah. Your story has stayed with me for the past couple of days. Can't shake it.

 

I have done a lot of work and continue to do so in the area of human cruelty to other humans and I can handle all the stories I am filled with, but...probably just menopause.

 

I am glad that Tess was there for you as you were for her. Animals are gifts to us in so many ways.

[Alchemist]

I'm with Flyer. The story of this woman has been haunting me. I fell asleep night before last with visions of that burning barn, screaming sheep, and blithe videotaping playing in my mind.

 

Although I'm not a psychiatrist, I don't think I'd be far off the mark to label her as a sociopath. I'm so glad that Diane was able to rescue the dogs that she did. And it warms my heart to hear how well Tess has repaid her! Good girl, Tess!