Which is more important?

[SS Cressa]

So me and a breeder got into a conversation about border collie focus, want of work, "drive".

 

She thought Border Collies should *work to please* more than they work for themselves.

 

I always thought BC should LOVE and WANT a job with humans or without. SInce they were bred to be able to work with people or think for themselves.

 

So what are your thought?

 

ETA: *work to please the handler

 

I do agree both are important but I think border collie want to work more important then their want to please.

[sea4th]

So me and a breeder got into a conversation about border collie focus, want of work, "drive".

 

She thought Border Collies should work to please more than they work for themselves.

 

I always thought BC should LOVE and WANT a job with humans or without. SInce they were bred to be able to work with people or think for themselves.

 

So what are your thought?

 

"Please" who? I think a border collie needs to have that need to work first and foremost and once they "turn on", learning to work with the human follows.

 

I know a prime example of working solely to please the handler. The dog I posted about before whose owner was trying to get her ILP and was denied because the dog looks more like a mixed breed than a bc to ACK. Although this dog goes back to some nice working stock, she is so-so on sheep. Her prime focus is pleasing, i.e., making the moves that she thinks will please her owner, and so she's never gone much beyond working a far distance from the handler.

 

Once a dog turns on, that need to work trumps every other need in it's life, including pleasing whoever is working with him/her.

 

That's what I've seen over the years. That "awakening" changes the dog forever.

 

You'll probably get better answers, but I don't think they'll differ much in the message.

[Sue R]

The work ethic/desire/ability has to come first. Biddability is also essential, to channel that instinct and ability into productive work, and that along with mutual respect to produce a partnership so that the dog is working with the handler and not for itself.

[Root Beer]

I'm answering from a sport perspective, of course.

 

I want a good balance of both.

 

Too much focus on the task/job/work makes it tough to get the dog to perform precisely on cue.

 

Too much focus on the handler can get the dog "stuck" on the handler.

 

Of course too little focus on the task/job/work can make it tough to get the dog to do what you want.

 

And too lottle focus on the handler can lead to a dog in his own mental universe.

 

A dog with a good balance of both with be enthusiastic and driven for the task/job/work, but will have an eye or an ear to the handler at the same time.

 

Too much of either is a problem. A strong balance of both is, in my opinion, optimal.

[sea4th]

Sorry. I automatically thought stockdog work. Still, I think once the pup turns onto livestock, that becomes overall most important and learning to work in conjunction with people is part of their development as a stockdog.

 

As far as other activities go, I can only speak from what I've seen from my own dogs and that is the goal was not so much to please me as it was to do the task well and a benefit to a well done task was that was that it pleased me.

[border_collie_crazy]

well lets see:

 

Misty works to please ME, that is her strongest desire. she is ok on stock and ok in sports, GREAT with parlour tricks and obedience though.

 

Happy works for the desire to work, she cares about working with me and she cares about the work itself, she doesnt give a rats patoot about pleasing me. and Happy is great on both stock and in sports. boy does she ever suck at parlour tricks though! she KNOWS lots of tricks,she will follow the command because I asked her to, but dont expect any kind of immediate or happy response! now get her doing actual work, or "work" that SHE wants to do(like flyball and stockwork) and you have a dynamo on your hands!

[OurBoys]

For me, the desire to work is more important than the desire to please. I know Jake wants to please but if he sees something I don't, I would want him to take the initiative and not worry about making me happy by listening to me instead. Because, in the end, if he gets the job done (right) then that in itself will make me happy. I hope that makes sense.

[Root Beer]

Another thing that is important to me is that "desire to please" does not manifest as worry about doing something that does not please. I want my dogs to be willing to try different things, without worrying about being "wrong".

 

I didn't realize what an asset this is until I ended up with a dog who really "wants to please" and, conversely, worries about being "wrong". I've had to invest a lot into teaching him to let that worry go.

 

I guess I'd lean more toward the dog having pure desire for the task/job/work with a little less "desire to please" in order to avoid worry on the dog's part about being "wrong". But not too much!! LOL!!

[Mark Billadeau]

Our last litter we focused on desire to please (biddability); we really didn't think about desire to work (we take it for granted) because we only breed dogs we feel are great workers (stock work).

 

Mark

[Bill Fosher]

Is it more important to be good looking or rich?

[Mark Billadeau]

[Shetlander]

I'll leave it to the experts to comment regarding stock work.

 

For performance, I'm with Kristine in wanting a nice blend. Probably I'd want drive foremost but bidability not far behind. The thing I love about Border Collies is their enthusiasm and their desire to interact, be part of what you are doing. Quinn is probably the most "helpful" dog I've ever had. He will pick up things I've dropped, put his toys away, bring me his bowl after he finishes a meal, place small items in the laundry drop, etc. All my dogs want to hang around me, but I feel like Quinn sees himself as being a part of what I am doing. My trusty assistant, so to speak.

 

I guess I'd lean more toward the dog having pure desire for the task/job/work with a little less "desire to please" in order to avoid worry on the dog's part about being "wrong".

 

The softness factor. My Shelties were like that. Very desirous to please combined with traditional (though gentle) obedience training early on resulted in dogs who wanted to be told what to do and then they would happily do it. It took a lot of effort to get them wild and crazy out in the agility ring, but was a fun kind of project. Very rewarding to see their confidence and daring bloom. I do wonder if much of this is simply a Sheltie trait more than the way they were raised. If I ever get a Sheltie puppy, that can be my experiment to see how he turns out with a different approach to early training.

[desertranger]

I wouud actually prefer a dog who would want to please a bit more over being driven. However I have learned that you are stuck with what you get so I make the best of it. It would be nice if you couls pick that out of a pup unfortunately you can't.

[Shetlander]

It would be nice if you couls pick that out of a pup unfortunately you can't.

 

I think that is true to a large extent, but I will say that Quinn's breeder was quite accurate in her prediction for him as an adult, other than she thought he'd be Velcro and he is far from it. But otherwise as far as his activity level, overall "drive," and even looking at everything as a grand game (though he is different about sheep than sports) was spot on. And the puppy testing that showed he held a grudge (I forget what they call that category) which I dismissed at the time has been more of an issue than I ever imagined, mainly in some very ostentatious sulking. He has been a drama queen since the day I brought him home.

[G. Festerling]

I actually would prefer biddable to be exactly 1% higher than the drive.

Biddable as in naturally wanting to work with a person. Not a manufactured "having and agreeing" to work after all kinds of contortions and training.

All the drive in the world is annoying if it is a constant struggle with a dog and if you can never turn your back on a dog working.

I also do not think of a dog that is biddable as either strong or weak. I have seen some very strong dogs that I would certainly consider biddable and some weak dogs that where anything but.

And as far as the thinking and working independent...that is all fine and dandy but only takes place after I take the dog to do work for me. And as such he works for me and should be biddable. On the other hand, I should butt out when it comes to letting the dog make certain decisions while he does the job.

[Root Beer]

Biddable as in naturally wanting to work with a person. Not a manufactured "having and agreeing" to work after all kinds of contortions and training.

 

Using training and conditioning to bring out biddability in a dog isn't really antithetical to it being natural to the dog. There are many traits that are natural to our dogs that we need to foster in some way to bring to full potential.

 

If it isn't there, though, no amount of "contorting" is going to bring it out in the dog. At least not to a great extent.

 

I'd say that's actually true of both biddability and drive.

[mum24dog]

To refer to a "desire to please" is misleading. It implies that the sole reason a dog will do something is because it makes us feel good.

Dogs do whatever is rewarding for them - they aren't altruistic. What dogs find rewarding differs greatly from dog to dog - one dog may be satisfied with a simple "Good boy" or even just to get out and about, another with a game or a treat, and another with the chance to work.

It isn't either or, it's all the same thing in differing degrees, but give me a dog with strong drive any day - I can use it as a trade off for cooperating with me.