Training collars

[fergmatt]

Ok - let me have it. What are peoples opinions on training collars (i.e. "stimulus" collars / vibration collars ect...). I have heard so many people say shock collars are cruel and I have had so many people say they have worked wonders. I guess if used appropriately, they could be an effective training tool for training off leash walking and even maybe recall for those easy distracted dogs. Has anyone used them? Pros...cons....let me have it. What age did you use it if you did use it?

 

Thanks

 

PS - I am just curious

[desertranger]

Let me ask how would you like a collar that delivers an electric shock around your neck?

 

I've never used them never will. There are better methods.

[fergmatt]

I think I agree with you. Its such a smart breed that I would think there would be better more effective ways to train a dog! Anyone else? Maybe the question should be has anyone used them and what success have you had that you could get with alternate ways of training?

[Debbie Meier]

Here is a link to a thread that was posted not to long ago:

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=25876

 

This one is on a different board posted by the same OP, but with a couple different views:

http://kensmuir.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2507

[Debbie Meier]

Here is one more article that is from an all breed behaviorist trainer, directed toward the pet owner population.

 

http://www.smartdogtrainer.com/training-dogs-using-shock.htm

 

I think you should get a pretty broad opinion base within those three links.

 

BTW, I've never used them other then an early version of anti bark collars on our lab x which we stopped using due to it applying an inconsistent correction, but we have had some dogs here that previous owners tried to use them (bc's). None had success at fixing the problem by using the collar, but they also could not fix the problem without the collar. The handlers timing was off resulting in the dog getting shocked for the wrong thing. I just recently spoke to someone that used one on her Aussie after having previous success with it on her lab, her Aussie became immuned to it. And it was not due to the dog being hard headed, tough or untrainable. The dog was very sensitive and willing to learn, she just was tough enough to take the shock when it proved to not relate to anything that she understood.

[geonni banner]

I have read, and heard it said that shock collars are not ok if used by someone who is not a trained professional, and ok if the person employing them is a good trainer. It seems to me that a good trainer should be able to find a way to reach a dog that does not involve zapping it with electricity. Any dog that is not a little insane should be trainable without shocking it. Any dog that is a little insane is liable to go completely off the deep end if you start shocking it.

 

I've also heard it said that shock collars are ok if you are trying to break a dog from doing something that could endanger its life. But think about it. If your four-year-old child dashed out in the street after a baseball would you put a shock collar on him/her? Probably not. You would find a way to motivate the kid that didn't involve electricity to stop at the curb and assess the situation before going after the ball.

 

JMO...

[Olivia]

I will be a little different. I have not and would not ever use one on my border collies. I believe that they are one of the few breeds that you can actually show what's right and wrong and reason with. The best I've ever see it put is the quote on the home page of bordercollie.org. "People often wonder just what trainers give the sheepdog in exchange for its boundless willingness. Food treats and praise sit on the trainer's shelf, untouched, unused. The sheepdog is shown its possibilities, he learns what life is like for a good dog and is invited to walk in a rational world whose farthest boundaries are defined by grace." ---- Donald McCaig, Nop's Hope

 

There are, however, IMHO individual dogs of other breeds that I have used e-collars with. One was a lab who was a hard core runner. If let off the leash he would run and neither love, money, food or long lines would get him back. He had no regard to my or his owner's opinion. Even in a fenced in area it took us upwards of 2 hours to catch him, even with a long line on. I put an e-collar on him. It was set just low enough that he could feel it and would respond by stopping and wondering what was up. I would then call, if he came towards me nothing happened except he was 'good boy'. If he looked or moved away from me he was again corrected with the collar until he realized that coming towards me was the best option and the he couldn't get away from the correction. He had the power to make the decision, the collar just helped him make the right one. In this case his owners were willing to use an e-collar to help ensure the dog's safety. I am fine with using it for that reason. I am not fine with using one to teach skills that could be taught another way, example... sit, down, etc.

 

Flame away.

 

Olivia

[border_collie_crazy]

I thought they were cruel till I needed one, mine is a total mircle worker. and after trying it on myself? seriously its not that bad, I use mine for my terrier, out of 20 levels the highest I ever need is 3..wanna know how strong that is? its so strong that 5 year old girls cannot even feel it. even at the higher level it doesnt hurt, it litterly feels like a static shock..it doesnt hurt at all, it just makes you jump in suprise. mine is awsome for my NON BCs, I used it to get my Retreiver to leave my rabbit alone..I used a spray bottle for everyone else, but it didnt do a darn thing for her, my rabbot with beat her up..nothing..it was at the point that she was trying to wrestle with my rabbit and putting her mouth on her, not acceptable! but spray bottles, shaker cans and leashes did absolutly nothing whatsoever, crating made it worse. tried the collar...worked like a charm! otherwise it is mostly for my Terrier..he has a barking problem..we thought "oh whatever" when we were told her barked a lot...we just didnt understand at the time..this is a dog that parks everytime the wind blows and will go nonstop for about 20 minuts straight, absolutly no breaks at all to try to reward the quiet, all the tricks I used for my other dogs to get them to pause? Rusty didnt even notice, I was told he needed to stop this NOW or he had to go. so I researched and invested in a high quality e-collar..worked like a charm,most of the time he doesnt even need the collar anymore and when he has his bad days, all you gotta do is put the collar on him, the collar alone is reminder enough, havent needed to actually correct him with it for months. the collar helped with his bolting too, my mom would stand inside with the remote and when Rusty followed me to close to the gates she would correct him(because he had been following a few feet behind me, then as soon as I would open the gate her would slip out and be off like a shot) he doesnt even need the collar for that now, as soon as I get within a few feet of the gate, he turns around and walks away.

 

One was a lab who was a hard core runner. If let off the leash he would run and neither love, money, food or long lines would get him back. He had no regard to my or his owner's opinion. Even in a fenced in area it took us upwards of 2 hours to catch him, even with a long line on. I put an e-collar on him. It was set just low enough that he could feel it and would respond by stopping and wondering what was up.

 

lol that was one of the issues I had with Rusty too! I had to leash him in my own fully fenced yard because there was nothing that would make him come, like your story it could take hours to catch him in a mid sized fenced yard, he had no reguard for anyone or intrest in anything, and to add insult? Rusty would pull this stunt while barking non stop the entire time!

 

it wouldnt be my first choice for a BC though, they are either to senstive, too smart or too curious! not to mention for the most part they didnt really need one! Misty is too sensitive, Happy is too curious, I tried to use it on Happy to get her to quiet lunging and snapping at the other dogs when exited..no such luck..she figered out the first time exactly what caused the shock..so she started hunting the room trying to find the source, when she found nothing she walked into another room and repeated the behaviour that got the shock last time...got the shock and started hunting that room high and low..no luck so she went on to try the next room....you get the idea! I never bothered again, and I still have the problem of her lunging snaping and frothing at the other dogs when exited.

[juliepoudrier]

I've also heard it said that shock collars are ok if you are trying to break a dog from doing something that could endanger its life. But think about it. If your four-year-old child dashed out in the street after a baseball would you put a shock collar on him/her? Probably not. You would find a way to motivate the kid that didn't involve electricity to stop at the curb and assess the situation before going after the ball.

I am not a fan of shock collars and have never even used a bark collar, but I have to disagree with the statement above. These sorts of analogies are almost always flawed: You can't really compare the reasoning and understanding processes of dogs to those of humans, even toddler humans. If you tell your 4-y.o. that you don't want her to run out into the street because she could be hit by a car and killed, she has a reasonable chance of understanding what you mean. Olivia's comments aside--and I do think border collies are highly intelligent--I don't believe for one minute that I could have the same conversation with my dog and get the same level of understanding from that dog. In the worst case, where the kid ignores my warning, I have a reasonable chance of running said kid down before she gets to the street. Can't say the same for a dog.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Along this line, I have considered getting a vibrating collar for Megan, who is essentially deaf. It's not as any form of punishment, but rather to communicate with her when she is not looking at me (I can use hand signals, even at a distance, but only if she's "checking in" with a direct look at me). It would be to give her a "heads up" that she needs to look for/at me to get a command (usually the recall, but sometimes just to see that we are changing direction and going another way).

 

Since she seems eager to do what she's told, it's often just a matter of her not being aware that I want her to recall or move in a certain direction. She's quite good at taking a good look to see my movements and commands but sometimes I need to connect with her when she's not actively looking at me (like when she's checking out a woodchuck hole or there is obstructing vegetation or terrain).

 

Anyone familiar with using a vibrating collar for this sort of thing?

[Izzysdad]

I used the citronella bark collar for Tobey. He used to bark and get so upset whenever he saw a person or dog at any distance. The collar sprayed twice, once when he saw a person and once when he saw another dog and ever since then he's been a perfect citizen. What I noticed while testing the collar that he didn't like the sound the collar made, not the actual spray.

 

I don't know enough about shock collars but I don't like the idea at first glance.

 

Tim

[urge to herd]

Along this line, I have considered getting a vibrating collar for Megan, who is essentially deaf. It's not as any form of punishment, but rather to communicate with her when she is not looking at me (I can use hand signals, even at a distance, but only if she's "checking in" with a direct look at me). It would be to give her a "heads up" that she needs to look for/at me to get a command (usually the recall, but sometimes just to see that we are changing direction and going another way).

 

Since she seems eager to do what she's told, it's often just a matter of her not being aware that I want her to recall or move in a certain direction. She's quite good at taking a good look to see my movements and commands but sometimes I need to connect with her when she's not actively looking at me (like when she's checking out a woodchuck hole or there is obstructing vegetation or terrain).

 

Anyone familiar with using a vibrating collar for this sort of thing?

 

 

Sue - Google 'deaf dog training' and you'll come up with some web sites that will talk about vibrating collars. I'll see her in a couple days and will ask what she thinks.

 

Ruth

[Sue R]

Thanks, Ruth. I am interested in something that will work but I also have concerns about it needing to be a very mild "reminder" as Megan (maybe increased by the deafness, but still a trait when she had fine hearing, indicated by a BAER test when she was younger) is quite startled by touches that she doesn't realize are coming (because she's not aware someone is coming up on her).

 

I will check that out.

 

One thing that is interesting is that, when her hearing was fine, she would go out of sight and get so involved with checking out woodchuck holes that she sometimes got herself "misplaced" somewhere on the farm. When she finally realized she was alone and we were gone (and we always went searching for her), or when she could hear us calling her when we got close enough, she would come straight home or to us.

 

Now, with little if any hearing, she rarely goes out of sight or only if she's simply preceding us on a walk, and she tends to look up regularly to check in with us and look for a recall (I do an arm-across-the-chest-swing for recall). She's also very aware of body language, especially with the dogs and can seem to hear us sometimes when what she's really doing is seeing their reactions and following suit.

[Sue R]

I found a great website (DDEAF) but was rather dismayed at the cost of collars. I think that if the system we've got going is functioning, I probably won't get one. She's only gotten "misplaced" once or twice in a long time, and came home or found us within a short time. However, I do worry that if she got distracted and out of sight, it might be dangerous, especially since she can't hear something or someone coming up from her rear.

[geonni banner]

I am not a fan of shock collars and have never even used a bark collar, but I have to disagree with the statement above. These sorts of analogies are almost always flawed: You can't really compare the reasoning and understanding processes of dogs to those of humans, even toddler humans. If you tell your 4-y.o. that you don't want her to run out into the street because she could be hit by a car and killed, she has a reasonable chance of understanding what you mean. Olivia's comments aside--and I do think border collies are highly intelligent--I don't believe for one minute that I could have the same conversation with my dog and get the same level of understanding from that dog. In the worst case, where the kid ignores my warning, I have a reasonable chance of running said kid down before she gets to the street. Can't say the same for a dog.

 

J.

 

Point taken... Dogs (even Border Collies) aren't humans. The point I was unskillfully trying to make is that both the bolting dog and the kid charging after a ball are acting on impulse. But I think in most cases the impulse to bolt, jump the fence, etc. can be addressed without resorting to shock collars. I was however, very interested to read about the poster who tried the collar on herself. What she reports doesn't sound so draconian as my experience of seeing shock collars used in the 80's and 90's. Perhaps they have been refined from the "blunt instrument" status that I observed while watching hunting dogs being trained back in those days.

[border_collie_crazy]

lol believe me that draconian thing is what I used to think as well! HOWEVER I would never reccomend just any e-collar, if they are not well made that can malfunction, and a malfunctioning e-collar would be very bad..I have seen the results of that..a dog with bad and deep burns in his neck.. this is an item I did a lot of serious research on, and I payed a lot of money(almost $400) on a top of the line collar, one that is very safe and one that I would have total control over.

[mbc1963]

I don't know anything about training collars, but wasn't aware of how sharp the pain from a shock collar is until I saw some teenage boy win "America's Funniest Videos" by wearing one and allowing himself to be filmed as he was shocked. I'm gathering that it's very painful, on the highest setting! These aren't the ones from AFV, but they get the point across:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rvqsK_G4Po

 

Mary

[BayouBC]

I found a great website (DDEAF) but was rather dismayed at the cost of collars. I think that if the system we've got going is functioning, I probably won't get one. She's only gotten "misplaced" once or twice in a long time, and came home or found us within a short time. However, I do worry that if she got distracted and out of sight, it might be dangerous, especially since she can't hear something or someone coming up from her rear.

 

I've never used them for this purpose myself, but I've known a couple of clients through vet clinics who had deaf dogs that wore collars. They didn't use a special type of collar (not sure if that's what you found on the deaf dog site). They just used regular e-collars that had a vibration only setting.

[pammyd]

I dont like any of them at all

Deaf dogs have been well trained by teaching them to check in regularly and using light and hand signals

 

I have problems in many ways with the use o these devices - but two examples I saw in real life just show me how they can go wrong by the most well meaning of people

 

One friend was trying it for her car chasing collie - it did distract her slightly but she was still chasing the car - but when she lay down for a rest the device shorted and started squirting her for no reason - she freaked out and they couldnt get her to go near the collar again

and imagine what would happen if it shorted out when she was looking at a child or something??

 

another friend had hers on to stop her dog barking, the other dogs realised that when they barked the other dog got zapped so they ran up to him and barked in his face to get him zapped - funny but another dog may have become agressive to dogs coming over to it

 

the potential to go wrong is too great

 

They are generaly used as a shortcut for people who are to lazy or not as smart as thier dogs and cant be bothered to find a kinder method to train

[trailrider]

Years ago I had one border collie who would jump over a gate or fence, isolate one sheep and keep her from leaving, even if it meant keeping her lying down. I borrowed a shock collar for a week. She stopped going over and through to get to the sheep. Didn`t take much to get her to respond the way we needed.

[tim62988]

i've been reading around the boards for a bit and i don't know if i fit in with the "typical" crowd BUT:

 

i must say i'm sortof at the end of my leash some days when it comes to my pup which is causing me to consider either an e-collar or a citronella bark collar.

 

I rescued a BC pup in June. She was born in January but given up in June when she nipped the farmer's young daughter, but what happened between January & June???? NO CLUE.

 

She is set off by:

most males (except me my father and my girlfriend's father)

other dogs unless they are allowed to approach her and wanting to play

4-wheeler

anyone walking past my apartment

 

and as with a BC if she sees something that is running she wants to chase or if it locks eyes with her, which my cat hasn't learned to not do either so she gets the upstairs and the dog downstairs.

 

 

So I agree that training collars can be used improperly and make a dog worse BUT what is people's insight for putting the collar on the dog while I'm home to cut out the excessive barking (i want her to know its ok to bark once or twice and when playing as long as its not excessive) so not wanting to go straight to the bark collar but more something that I can give a verbal command and when not followed use an e-collar as a way of breaking the habbit.

 

My main two things are something to interupt the excessive barking to bring her attention back to me so she knows its ok, I see it, now stop the barking AND something to break her focus when she's focused in on something like a cat at the farm

 

right now she's left on about 60feet of rope so I can regain control while playing ball but still give her some freedom to run.

 

 

 

On other people's comments: if you research the bark collars & e-collars they're built a lot better, levels of 0-20 or more, some just having a tone (its a consideration down the line of a beep = the command of "focus") and just like anything it CAN malfunction and in the wrong hands NOTHING is good

[SecretBC]

I think it depends on your reasons for wanting to use them. I'm close to ordering one -- hopefully in a size that will fit both Luke & Secret, either that or I'll order two.

 

Luke has a horrid, horrid barking problem. Mostly just in the car. Secret joins him, but doesn't do much when he isn't there, so Luke is definitely the main problem. Luke will also sometimes bark when people come in the office -- Not cool. His barking really needs to stop. He barks in situations when I have a difficult time correcting him.

 

Secret is good off leash 99% of the time. It's the 1% of the time when she runs off and stands in the middle of the rail road tracks eating some rotting carcass and I can't get to her that I find I would REALLY like to have the "long arm" of an e-collar available to me. I don't feel that it would take many corrections to get the point across to her.

 

It may be considered a lazy way of training, but it's effective when used properly.

[sandyleew]

I tried everything to train Taz to stop barking excessively and for no reason. I finally resorted to a bark collar. I live on the lake and have neighbors that are only here once in a while and they have a dog. She will literally bark every second she is outside if the dog is there. She won't if the bark collar is on. I don't put it on her all the time, but in those instances, it works well. She knows when I put it on and just doesn't bark.

[Gloria Atwater]

I can't speak for the use of e-collars on any other breeds, or for any other purpose, but I loathe and despise the use of them for stockdog training. From what I've seen, the end result is most likely to be a dog that's shut down, mechanical and hesitant, using only part of the natural talent it would display if it were trained, rather than punished. I actually saw an Aussie that would *flinch* from a sharp verbal correction by twitching its head to one side - anticipating a shock even in the absence of an e-collar.

 

I'm sure e-collars have their place in the dog training world. But I abhor them. The best cure for a bad behavior is to stop it when it begins.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

 

ETA: I made this response to, and only in response to, the original post, which asked, in part: "Ok - let me have it. What are peoples opinions on training collars (i.e. "stimulus" collars / vibration collars ect...)"

[sandyleew]

The best cure for a bad behavior is to stop it when it begins.

That is all fine and good when you have a puppy, but when you have a rescue that was apparently allowed to do this for a long time already it is sometimes impossible to train them not to. I tried every method there is to stop her from barking. I wish I could train it out of her, but she is a barker and nothing I do but the bark collar will stop her. I can't keep her inside all the time when the neighbors are here. I feel she is happier being allowed to go outside with the bark collar on then staying inside all the time and not wearing it.