Training collars

[coyotecreek]

I think if you KNOW how to use one and its used on the right type of dog,in the right situation, it can be benificial..BUT BUT BUT..they have NO place in stockdog training...Every instance Ive seen it used by others when training stock, it completly took the drive out of the dog..they would simply STOP working..IMO, it is to much..as Ive heard others say in the past (I think it might have been on this board) Shepherds have been training dogs for many many years without the collar.

[Northof49]

Here is one more article that is from an all breed behaviorist trainer, directed toward the pet owner population.

 

http://www.smartdogtrainer.com/training-dogs-using-shock.htm

 

I think you should get a pretty broad opinion base within those three links.

 

 

He's not a Behaviourist - he has no certification credentials. In addition, no certified, accredited behaviourist recommends shock collars or any kind of pain to train animals.

[ejano]

I found a great website (DDEAF) but was rather dismayed at the cost of collars. I think that if the system we've got going is functioning, I probably won't get one. She's only gotten "misplaced" once or twice in a long time, and came home or found us within a short time. However, I do worry that if she got distracted and out of sight, it might be dangerous, especially since she can't hear something or someone coming up from her rear.

 

Sue Deafdogs.org has instructions on how to make a vibrating collar for a dog using parts stripped from a child's remote control car... I can't swear to the success of the collar, but here are the instructions....and the website

 

http://www.deafdogs.org/resources/vibracollar.php

How to make your own Vibrating Collar!

 

(Courtesy of Bill Bishop)

 

The basic idea is to use the guts of a radio remote controlled toy car as a means to turn on and off a vibrator fixed to the dog's collar. The car has everything you need---hand held radio transmitter/actuator, small radio receiver with antenna, and a small motor that forms the basis of the vibrator.

 

I bought the least expensive remote controlled toy car I could find. There is a wide variety available, each offering different styling and each offering different remote control options., but all you need is the simplest and cheapest. The one I used cost about $10. Its remote control feature was very limited. When you turned the car on (There's an on-off switch on the car.) it ran forward continuously. When you pulled the trigger on the remote control unit, the car's direction reversed.

 

In this particular car (and probably most others, although I'm not an expert) the battery, receiver electronics and on-off switch were all right next to each other in a plastic assembly which I 'extracted'. Basically, I broke the car apart until this was all that was left. You want these components to occupy as little space as possible because they will be hanging on your dog's collar.

 

I also 'extracted' the motor, and epoxied a small piece of metal to the side of its shaft. The idea is to fix something to the shaft that will cause the motor to be out of balance so that when it runs it will shake (vibrate). Anything will work, even a pebble. You can try a few things by first fixing them to the shaft with tape to get a feel for whether or not there's enough vibration. Heavier things will cause greater vibrations.

 

I put the motor in a plastic 35mm film canister -- you can get them free at any photo store-- and stuffed some paper in to hold it in place.

 

The battery/receiver/on-off switch assemblies, and the vibrator, are sewn onto a collar. It's probably best to sew the antenna in too, and not have it stick up where it might get in the dog's way. That's what Miranda did and it works fine.

 

If the remote controlled car you started with is normally stopped and only runs when activated, then you're finished. In my case, the car ran all the time, and reversed when activated, i.e., the motor ran all the time, only changing direction. Thus, it vibrated all the time, whether the actuator was pressed or not. In order to prevent it from running forward continuously, and only running (in this case backward, but who cares, all you want to do is have it turn) when activated, I put a diode in series with one of the leads to the motor. You can buy diodes at Radio Shack for less than a buck. Try the diode in each lead to the motor, and in each direction in each lead, until you hit upon the right lead and direction to do what you want. If this seems to hard to do, find a car that is normally stopped, and only runs when activated (either backwards or forwards, it doesn't matter).

[ejano]

 

My main two things are something to interupt the excessive barking to bring her attention back to me so she knows its ok, I see it, now stop the barking AND something to break her focus when she's focused in on something like a cat at the farm

 

 

Do you know what kind of barking it is? Is it a warning? Excited? Stressed? Attention? Until you can determine exactly why she's barking and what she's trying to say, then "one size fits all discipline" might not be as effective as you'd like.

 

Robin is the mouthy one in the family... when we are all playing games together he stress barks because he wants to make sure he's doing the right thing and when he's done his trick, he barks because he wants to make sure that everyone knows what a wonderful thing he's done. Instead of telling him repeatedly "Be quiet" (which wasn't working), I started telling him to lie down when he was barking. He doesn't bark while he is lying down. Now, when he starts his bark bark bark in excitement, I just look at him and he lies down and shuts his yap. Sometimes he even self disciplines himself. He'll start bark bark, then remember his manners, sigh and lie down.

 

But Robin never barks at anything outside the house (except for one time, but that was a rather shady sales person and it was one very deep WOOOF!) He leaves doorbell duty up to Ladybug (and Brodie her understudy). She gets to yap yap yap, somebody's here and that's it. No more barking. I don't mind her doing this because she (used to) hear a car pulling in the driveway before I did and knew which door someone was at...helpful when you live in the country.

 

So, I might try swapping out discipline for teaching her a new behavior...if you ask her to sit, lie down, go to her mat...you are gaining control of her barking by working on an alternative behavior without getting frustrated yelling, "Stop barking" and having her not listen. The clicker is a very helpful tool in working on this kind of behavior modification. Also, think about, do you want the dog to bark just a bit when someone comes to the door? (I do, actually.) I want them to say: WARNING THREE DOGS INSIDE..ONE AT EACH DOOR.... and a CAT! .

 

Liz

[Pam Wolf]

Ok - let me have it. What are peoples opinions on training collars (i.e. "stimulus" collars / vibration collars ect...). I have heard so many people say shock collars are cruel and I have had so many people say they have worked wonders. I guess if used appropriately, they could be an effective training tool for training off leash walking and even maybe recall for those easy distracted dogs. Has anyone used them? Pros...cons....let me have it. What age did you use it if you did use it?

 

Thanks

 

PS - I am just curious

 

Why do you need any collar for training? Aren't you the one with opposable thumbs (implying intelligence? but then if you are using 'stimulus" collars maybe not).

 

Vibration collars could be useful if the dog were deaf but w/o the shock.

 

Stimulus isn't all it's cracked up to be, just look where our national stumulus package has taken us!

[Gloria Atwater]

That is all fine and good when you have a puppy, but when you have a rescue that was apparently allowed to do this for a long time already it is sometimes impossible to train them not to. I tried every method there is to stop her from barking. I wish I could train it out of her, but she is a barker and nothing I do but the bark collar will stop her. I can't keep her inside all the time when the neighbors are here. I feel she is happier being allowed to go outside with the bark collar on then staying inside all the time and not wearing it.

 

Oh, please don't think I was aiming my comments at you! I was just stating an opinion in regards to the initial post, with emphasis on my feelings towards e-collars and stockdog training. Bark collars I regard as a little different thing, and in cases such as yours, they may be the only recourse. It's great you've found a solution that keeps both you and your dog happy.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[tim62988]

This might throw some rolling eyes ect....

 

NOT all border collies are going to be used as stock dogs: I have no intentions anytime in the near future of working my dog on any livestock, I work with cows at work so don't want to bring work home AND (this will get more eyes rolling) I live in an apartment so no where to keep any livestock

 

 

Now to give some additional background:

my pup is set off by anyone walking past the apartment, especially if they walk past with a dog which becomes a problem since we live on a corner. So the only solution currently is putting her into her crate which does work BUT doesn't solve t he problem or train it out of her

 

so that is why i'm looking to the bark/e-collars is to break the habbit/focus, i'm not looking to get one to "train" her.

 

I personally think I'm leaning more towards the e-collar (or citronella e-collar) so I can use it to break her focus so then she will actually notice my commands and respond vs. current when her mouth is open her ears are closed & brain is shut down.

 

 

I also like the idea of the collar with a remote so she learns that durring playtime she can bark, but she is not allowed to bark at people coming into the house (especially when it is someone else's house that we are in) bark at cats, or bark at people walking past the apartment

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Just a couple of questions....

 

How is your dog with other dogs in general? Is she fine outside of the house on and off leash?

 

What else have you tried other than crating?

 

There are many things you can do to train a default behaviour like "got to place". But I don't know what you have and have not tried. I am a huge fan of training another behaviour to go with the stimulus opposed to barking.

 

Have you tried simply body blocking her, moving her away from the stimulus and having her do something else? You could also try a squirt bottle instead of a training collar.

[tim62988]

she LOVES to go nuts at other dogs

 

body blocks don't work with her

 

so far the only thing that works is either crate or put her on a leash and bring her to sit with me by the couch (which still doesn't teach her to stop barking just removes her from seeing the stimulus)

 

and a squirt bottle won't break her focus at distances because I can't reach out and distract her, so can't trust her off leash untill the solid recall is built in

[Pam Wolf]

she LOVES to go nuts at other dogs

 

body blocks don't work with her

 

so far the only thing that works is either crate or put her on a leash and bring her to sit with me by the couch (which still doesn't teach her to stop barking just removes her from seeing the stimulus)

 

and a squirt bottle won't break her focus at distances because I can't reach out and distract her, so can't trust her off leash untill the solid recall is built in

 

 

Try counter conditioning seek material on: dogstardaily.com

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I agree with Pam. Counter Conditioning should work. There is a ton of information to be had. To be able to teach your dog an alternate behaviour, especially when she sees other dogs will take some time, but the key will be to understand counter conditioning, desensitization and understanding her thresholds and stimuli. Having a solid recall and doing extensive attention work should also help.

[Gloria Atwater]

This might throw some rolling eyes ect....

 

NOT all border collies are going to be used as stock dogs: I have no intentions anytime in the near future of working my dog on any livestock, I work with cows at work so don't want to bring work home AND (this will get more eyes rolling) I live in an apartment so no where to keep any livestock.......

 

Oh, dear. I hope my responses aren't the ones creating displeasure. I assure everyone that my response to shock collars was directed solely to the original post, in which someone asked:

 

"Ok - let me have it. What are peoples opinions on training collars (i.e. "stimulus" collars / vibration collars ect...)"

 

I offered my opinion on e-collars as regards working dogs, because that's what *I* have. I certainly don't roll eyes at the many people out there who love their BCs as pets and companions.

 

Slinking away, now ....

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[Maralynn]

Hey Tim, I'm wondering what sort of training and mental exercise you give your pup? I'm not opposed to ecollar/bark collar in the right situation, but if she is bored it's just going to be a band-aid while not taking care of the root of the issue.

[tim62988]

LOTS of ball

 

but also every evening after work I go through a couple "training" sessions with her for the mental brain work (usually incorporated with ball or a walk)

 

but also did an 8week basic obedience class, started into a Rally-O class and hopefully next week (if not next week than 3 weeks) we're going to give Agility class a shot!

 

I'm hoping that agility will be fast paced enough to actually bring her attention back to me vs. Rally-O she's usually focused on me but gets bored waiting in line to go through the course (usually me and 2 others at class so its not a long wait but still enough for her to decide she wants to play with other dogs)

 

 

she is one of those dogs that THINKS she must go see and sniff every other dog

 

I believe the root of the barking:

-noises that startle her (like just now, but barked twice then quit which is why I want a remote bark collar because I feel barking twice isn't excessive, and barking while playing is fine ect....)

-dogs that are on the sidewalk outside the house, when we're elsewhere in town walking she wants to try and visit other dogs (usually) but this is HER house (or so she thinks)

-occasionally when people are walking past

-when someone walks into the house she barks, and gets very bad if they walk in via a dark hallway/dark porch where she can't see them as well (i know she would be a fear biter given the oportunity)

-the worst barking is at the 4-wheeler! she is fine untill someone gets on it then she barks at it and tries to bite the tires then when its started she's just in a dumb frenzy

 

 

I do know there is some boredom involved when i'm at work especially if i forget to put her nylabone in her crate since i spent the past week watching her pass foam from her bed! grrr (she's ok though, never missed a beat)

 

but the main barking issues are ones that are focused AT something, so I would be looking to use a remote citronella spray to break her focus which i'm hoping would open her ears and let her hear & respond to me again

 

^just the idea running through my mind....don't know if it would work or not

[Alchemist]

A bit OT, perhaps, but yesterday at the park there was a gentleman with a standard poodle that was barking nonstop as dogs were fetching sticks from the stream. The owner came armed with sticks: clearly he was hoping that his dog would get some exercise in chasing other dogs. Duncan was delighted to oblige by fetching sticks for as long as the gentleman was willing to throw them. The poodle, as well as the red and white (spaniel mix?) in the photo mainly barked nonstop and chased the fastest moving object in the scheme (read: Duncan).

 

 

After ten or fifteen minutes of hearing his poodle bark, the gentleman abruptly told the dog "no barking", pulled out a remote, and zapped the dog. I was stunned that he only decided that after having allowed the dog to bark for so long.

 

Here's my question: aren't these bark collars inadvisable under conditions where the dog could get it wet?

[jasper7777]

Here is a link to Anna Holland a herding dog trainer in New Zealand has written about the e-collars. I think what she wrote is very good.

 

http://www.annaholland.co.nz/electricdogtrainers%20-%20thedosanddonots.html

[jasper7777]

To answer a question someone asked about wouldn't water effect the collar. If you get a collar get one of the best brands, not a cheap one made in China, they can hurt your dog. The good brands are water proof. One of the biggest users of electric training collars is hunters and people with bird dogs that swim in water. They use them for many reasons but one of the reasons is there dogs may run a mile away through the woods and they can signal the dog with the collar to come back. They use them in the water too.

[jasper7777]

Also, a bark collar is completely different than a e-collar used for training. The guy who zapped his dog for barking is stupid and you are never supposed to use the e-collar for things like that. A good barking collar senses vibration and tingles right when the dog begins to bark- so the timing is right. The training e-collars are more sophisticated, you control it by hand remote and you don't use it for barking— if you don't do it correctly you can hurt your dog, or train him to be afraid to go in the back yard, or outside.

[Kelleybean]

Unless the dog is in eminent danger (ie: chasing cars) I would never use one. There are better training methods using positive associations and you could end up with a fearful dog using this technique. BC's learn so fast, and are so responsive that it doesn't seem to be the best alternative--unless their life is in danger.

[rushdoggie]

Unless the dog is in eminent danger (ie: chasing cars) I would never use one. There are better training methods using positive associations and you could end up with a fearful dog using this technique. BC's learn so fast, and are so responsive that it doesn't seem to be the best alternative--unless their life is in danger.

 

+1

 

While I am certain there are people who are very skilled at using an e-collar for basic training, I am most certain they are successful not necessarily because they are using the best tool for training but because they are very good at their timing and skilled observers, so the dog gets a small correction times exactly right. No different than the guys I used to know who trained with a well timed pop.

 

The problem is, most people aren't that good, and even the most observant person can't always tell whats going on in a dogs mind. I am certain those who use an e-collar would be equally as successful using a less punitive and painful method if they applied those powers of observation and timing. The problem with them, like all corrections is they shut down an behavior without teaching the alternative. In addition, used to correct a reactive dog, the dog may become more reactive or phobic about what set him off in the first place, because now that thing shocked him. Applying a painful stimulus when he sees something that amped him up is likely to amp him up even more. And, it doesn't really teach the dog anything.

 

I won't say there is no use for an e-collar ever, I think there are a few instances where if all else has failed that they could potentially save a dogs life (chasing cars, dogs who refuse to come when called), but more often than not there are better ways to solve a behavior problem.

[hmbmarohl]

i use a "choke collar"--the cloth ones on my dogs (BC and a lab). works great for on leash stuff and if you are with them and they are doing something you dont like, leave the leash on and grab them and correct them appropriately (do not leave on them when not with them). as for off-leash, go to an obidence class that works with off-leash. i've trained several dogs for off leash using their methods without the need for a shock collar.