jdarling Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I sincerely doubt that several people (on the dam's side at least) are puppy millers or had any intentions of pups they produced winding up in such a situation. I agree. Probably the only person that should be looked at is the person who bred the puppy and is responsible for having it end up with the Hunte Corporation or at the pet store. The people behind the pedigree have no control over that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted April 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 What is the biggest shame to me is that the ABCA continues (maybe they stopped) to allow Thomas Baumgartner to register puppies. Shouldn't someone registering 100 puppies a year raise a red flag? ETA: It's easy for me to post the info because I have no embarrassment about it because I didn't actually purchase here. We all live and learn. Before I came here, I would have happily bought a border collie from confirmation parents because that's what I thought you just do. I know better now. We all live and learn from our mistakes and hopefully we can help educate some folks along the way. Again, thank you! Now, with this type of conversation maybe "we" can do something. With a name and info it's a start imo. The only way we can fail is to not try. Have you contacted ABCA with T Baumgartners' name and asked questions or anything? I don't know how their database and all is kept but it could be they would have a hard time "connecting him" unless specifically asked. ABCA is fantastic to deal with especially if it's regarding your own dog! Education appears to not be working in many cases, however, outing these breeders and shame along with registration rights revoked (if there are problems) may help! Who knows... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted April 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 The people behind the pedigree have no control over that. I'm going to disagree with that to an extent. If they "had no intentions" then maybe they should have used LP on the papers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda-pop Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Again, thank you! Now, with this type of conversation maybe "we" can do something. With a name and info it's a start imo. The only way we can fail is to not try. Have you contacted ABCA with T Baumgartners' name and asked questions or anything? I don't know how their database and all is kept but it could be they would have a hard time "connecting him" unless specifically asked. ABCA is fantastic to deal with especially if it's regarding your own dog! Education appears to not be working in many cases, however, outing these breeders and shame along with registration rights revoked (if there are problems) may help! Who knows... actually, i did contact the abca and let them know that thomas baumgartner is a puppy miller, he's USDA registered, breeds multiple breeds, uses a puppy broker and sells his puppies in pet stores in CA. They said they weren't sure if there was anything they could actually do but they thanked me for the info. OH and, Thomas Baumgartner has recieved farm subsidies to not farm. So he gets $$ from the gov to not farm/ranch proper livestock AND he makes bank selling puppies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 >>> There's a whole list of people on a Yahoo group for a breeder out of Oklahoma that sells litter after litter of puppies for an exhoribant about of money, the list is completely moderated so nothing negative gets through, and no one happens to notice that buyers buy puppies, are very happy with their pups, and then slowly disappear off the list. If you contact these people later, you find out that their either got into it with the breeder and the breeder didn't stand by the contract or some such thing, or (and I love this) they said they finally stopped drinking the Kool-Aid. I have no sympathy for these people. What possesses someone to go online, look at a pup from a website where there's 20-some breeding dogs listed, several litters at a time, find out that it will cost them no less than a small fortune, and think to themselves, "Now THAT's what I'm talkin' 'bout. That's a great breeder!" and log on to PayPal and send off a good chunk of their life savings. They didn't do their research<<< I have been to their website. They have a video of one of their studs working stock....chasing the stock all over the place and not working correctly and then they use that stud as the basis of their herding stud. If I was going to promote one of my male dogs, I would not put a video lie that up...it's down right awful. Jodi- correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they breeding for Merles and just slapping two merle together w/o any thought for anything else? This is her business...producing puppies, one after another. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Interesting. That kennel is very big in the sports world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 >>> There's a whole list of people on a Yahoo group for a breeder out of Oklahoma that sells litter after litter of puppies for an exhoribant about of money, the list is completely moderated so nothing negative gets through, and no one happens to notice that buyers buy puppies, are very happy with their pups, and then slowly disappear off the list. If you contact these people later, you find out that their either got into it with the breeder and the breeder didn't stand by the contract or some such thing, or (and I love this) they said they finally stopped drinking the Kool-Aid. I have no sympathy for these people. What possesses someone to go online, look at a pup from a website where there's 20-some breeding dogs listed, several litters at a time, find out that it will cost them no less than a small fortune, and think to themselves, "Now THAT's what I'm talkin' 'bout. That's a great breeder!" and log on to PayPal and send off a good chunk of their life savings. They didn't do their research<<< I have been to their website. They have a video of one of their studs working stock....chasing the stock all over the place and not working correctly and then they use that stud as the basis of their herding stud. If I was going to promote one of my male dogs, I would not put a video lie that up...it's down right awful. Jodi- correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they breeding for Merles and just slapping two merle together w/o any thought for anything else? This is her business...producing puppies, one after another. Diane Is that the first breeder you come across if you Google for border collie oklahoma yahoo? Otherwise, would you mind a PM to tell me who? I couldn't get any of that website's videos to play for me to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 About 20 years ago I purchased a little black and white male dustmop from the pet store in Regency Mall, Racine, WI and gave it to my mom for her birthday. As the little bugger grew up he developed a overslung lower jaw and some allergy issues. When he was two, dad was approached by a lady that had a female of the same breed and asked if he would be studded out, dad said fine and took a pick of litter. The reason I'm sharing this story it because it is the story of a typical American Family, atleast from the part of the country I'm from at the time I grew up there. You purchase pets at pet stores if you want to show you purchase puppies from breeders, if you want a mutt (Heinz 57 is what dad referred to them as) just get one for free out of the newspaper. I think it goes back to when Sears, Grants and the old Wells store had puppies available in their pet department, along with kittens, fish and I always remember escaped birds flying around the store. I guess changing people's perception as to where they should purchase a pet puppy from is part of the uphill battle. Most arn't aware of possible health problems until after they bring their little pride and joy home, some not even then. In many cases puppies are impulse purchases, how do you change that? Hey, how about a 5 day waiting period with a requirement that they research their purchase and Federal Background Checks? The background checks will stop a bunch of people from buying... ...I'm joking... Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 but aren't they breeding for Merles and just slapping two merle together w/o any thought for anything else? No, I don't think she's doing any merle to merle breedings. A lot of breedings, yes. Working ability largely unknown, yuppers. Breeding certain colors to fill the demand on the waiting list, yessiree. ... But they are hip tested and eye tested up one side and down the other!!! Gotta have those because those are what make a good breeding, don'tcha know?!?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I'm going to disagree with that to an extent. If they "had no intentions" then maybe they should have used LP on the papers. What she said. There are steps that breeders can take to make it harder for their names to end up on puppy mill papers, but breeders rarely use them. Selling pet/sport puppies on limited registration is one of them. Not foolproof, but it helps. Spay/neuter contracts are another. Interesting. That kennel is very big in the sports world. I have noticed that, and it boggles my mind because one of the main criticisms that sport friends of mine have leveled at working breeders is their perceived lack of responsibility. The sports people claim that sports breeders are better because they do all the health tests and use the Superpuppy program and sell pets on spay/neuter contracts, etc. -- but when they want to patronize a "working" breeder they go to that one? It doesn't make any sense at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 The reason I'm sharing this story it because it is the story of a typical American Family, atleast from the part of the country I'm from at the time I grew up there. You purchase pets at pet stores if you want to show you purchase puppies from breeders, if you want a mutt (Heinz 57 is what dad referred to them as) just get one for free out of the newspaper. I think it goes back to when Sears, Grants and the old Wells store had puppies available in their pet department, along with kittens, fish and I always remember escaped birds flying around the store. I think that's why a lot of people buy puppies from Amish breeders, too. Hey, everything else the Amish produce on their farms is considered a good thing. We buy their milk, their eggs, their produce, and their baked goods. These things are usually less expensive and fresher than what you get in the grocery store. If you don't know any different, buying a puppy from an Amish breeder sounds like a really great thing. Most people just don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 >>No, I don't think she's doing any merle to merle breedings. A lot of breedings, yes. Working ability largely unknown, yuppers. Breeding certain colors to fill the demand on the waiting list, yessiree<<< OK, I couldn't remember. Also the video that I was referring to is now gone....there was a lot of plastic bag waving and stock going several directions and no control. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I think that's why a lot of people buy puppies from Amish breeders, too. Hey, everything else the Amish produce on their farms is considered a good thing. We buy their milk, their eggs, their produce, and their baked goods. These things are usually less expensive and fresher than what you get in the grocery store. If you don't know any different, buying a puppy from an Amish breeder sounds like a really great thing. Most people just don't know. We didn't have any Amish communities in our area, so I was real surprised to hear that some deal in puppy production. I could see people thinking that the Amish would have good farm dogs if they didn't know any differently. We have a horse trader in the area that runs around with a magnet on his truck, Ponies and Reg. Border Collies, people think that he has real working dogs, NOT!!! Last time I ran into him he asked me I could send some buyers his way, I told him not unless he could prove to me that his dogs worked, he said, but they do. I told him that I had worked with a couple of them and they did not show me what I needed to see. He said "Well, they will hold a gate, they work." Kinda funny, yeah they hold gates alright, just by being in the openning and fearing to go in with him. Oh yeah, he does not like our dogs, they want to work too much.... Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I basically skimmed the thread since I would never buy a pet store dog of any kind. However you also have to watch out for breeders. I once got a dog from a renowned BC breeder and the dog I got was inbred so bad that it eventually killed her. We could do nothing. Carefully investigate anyone you consider getting a dog from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted April 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I basically skimmed the thread since I would never buy a pet store dog of any kind. Psssttt Ranger, let me tell you a secret - that's what this thread is about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 and the dog I got was inbred so bad that it eventually killed her. What does that mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 We didn't have any Amish communities in our area, so I was real surprised to hear that some deal in puppy production. I could see people thinking that the Amish would have good farm dogs if they didn't know any differently. They do, and big time, especially in areas like Lancaster County PA. They especially produce loads of small dogs (popular pets) and whatever else sells well. For some, it doesn't matter what condition you keep them in - "animals don't have souls" so it doesn't matter if you treat them like dirt. They are certainly not the only group, with religious ties or not, that participate actively in making a misery of dogs' lives for income and profit. Some of the most notorious are all about patriotism (RS) or religion or whatever, and I'm sure they stress some of those "values" because they make good selling points and convince the gullible that they are dealing with honorable, ethical breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 It's funny you mention the one OK breeder. Being a sports person and living in Oklahoma they were the first breeder suggested to me. I had to say no no matter what they were producing simply due to the big Pay Pal sign on the site and the massive amount of litters every year. I know a lot of sports people do think highly of them but they don't sit well with me at all. Don't know too much, just my noob impressions and intuition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 If your going to bash the Amish you should say Who/What/Where. Such blanket statements like that is totaly not fair in my eyes. I would just bet there is some Amish breeders that actually take care of there dogs, believe it or not <---- course that is just assuming also I havent seen any Amish here with there dogs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Even good breeders can end up with dogs in a puppy mill. Those guys just pretend they are a nice family looking for a dog. They lie thru their teeth. They never wlk in and say that they run a puppy mill and want to buy a puppy for breeding. And the breeder thinks these are nice folks just looking to buy a pup. A lot of puppy mill people try to get good breeding stock to breed. And they will pay a lot. But look how much they can make from the sale of those pups. They often answer ads in the paper. One man I knew bred Belgian Tevurians. And he was a careful breeder - only had a couple of dogs that he bred and then not that often. One of his puppies ended up in a puppy mill. He found out about it and tried and tried to get that dog out of there. I don't remember hearing if he was ever able to get his puppy back. But he was absolutely sick about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 I was not, and made of point of not, bashing all the Amish as puppy millers. It is a known fact that there are a lot of puppy mills (high-volume multi-breed breeding operations) that are a business proposition among some Amish communities. They are not, as I pointed out, the only "group" that is associated with puppy mills. What is a sad fact is that many puppy mills can trace their history to the federal government (USDA?) encouraging the production of puppies as a supplemental farm income in the time period between the two world wars (I think I have the time frame right). I have known people who, within the last couple of decades, purchased a stud dog and some bitches from a breeder for that express purpose - to produce puppies to provide supplemental farm income. No group or location - Amish, Fundamentalist, retired military, patriotic, redneck, Missouri, you-name-it - has a monopoly on puppy mill practices. There are, however, some groups or individuals in the afore-mentioned groups that for one reason or another are particularly "active" in this practice, and it is a known fact. Try a Google search for references. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda-pop Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 What is a sad fact is that many puppy mills can trace their history to the federal government (USDA?) encouraging the production of puppies as a supplemental farm income in the time period between the two world wars (I think I have the time frame right). I have known people who, within the last couple of decades, purchased a stud dog and some bitches from a breeder for that express purpose - to produce puppies to provide supplemental farm income. Soda's puppy miller gets farm subsidies to not farm and they make up the difference by puppy milling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Even good breeders can end up with dogs in a puppy mill. Those guys just pretend they are a nice family looking for a dog. They lie thru their teeth. They never wlk in and say that they run a puppy mill and want to buy a puppy for breeding. And the breeder thinks these are nice folks just looking to buy a pup. A lot of puppy mill people try to get good breeding stock to breed. And they will pay a lot. But look how much they can make from the sale of those pups. They often answer ads in the paper. One man I knew bred Belgian Tevurians. And he was a careful breeder - only had a couple of dogs that he bred and then not that often. One of his puppies ended up in a puppy mill. He found out about it and tried and tried to get that dog out of there. I don't remember hearing if he was ever able to get his puppy back. But he was absolutely sick about it. There have been a lot of article recenty about the Amish puppy mills. And they are really bad. They believe that God gave man dominion over all animals and therefore it is OK for them to have puppy mills. Which is strange because I think they treat their farm animals well. But they can make a lot of money selling dogs. The conditions are often just horrible. Some dogs have never even set their feet on the ground before. And the crates are so small that the dogs can't even stand up. But Pennsylvania has passed some new laws regarding how those dogs must be treated. They have to have vet checks every so many months. The crates have to be big enough and the dogs have to be exercised. Now if they can only enforce it. One Amish farmer got into trouble with the inspectors. He went home and just shot all 80 of his dogs. Not illegal. This stuff makes me crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Warning Tangent! Could some one explain what the farm subsidy to not farm is all about please? Why is the government paying people not to farm? Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Chittenden Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Most of the dogs coming into our rescue these days are coming in via Rainbow Kennels and the Debby's Petlands throughout New England. The breeder of most of these dogs is a Holly/Chad Kahnkee. Her name appears on the USDA list of licensed breeders. The paperwork just says "unregistered" border collie. In the past we have had a smattering of dogs that came to us via Hunte Corporation. I actually contacted the breeder of my Drake (I adopted at 13 months, originally a Hunte Corp/pet store pup. He sent me photos of his mom and dad and signed an ABCA transfer so I could get him registered. The photos of the litter were in a garage. He is not USDA licensed so I would guess that he had a litter and somehow Hunte got the pups? Bradley Wallace is the breeder. One note to me says that Drake's grandmother works cattle. Drake actually works sheep quite nicely although I only do this in my backyard, no time for sheep trialing along with agility. Harold Kemp and LR Alexander are some names in the pedigree - if I find it I'll scan it in - somewhere there is a stack of pedigrees from rescue dogs as I occasionally try to study them for links... Two of our other dogs came in unregistered through Rainbow Kennels/Debby's Petland. Keegan came into rescue at age 10 months and we adopted him. A year later at the age of 23 months another BC came into rescue. We named him Tristan and when we looked at the Debby's Petland paperwork we realized we had littermates. I adopted Tristan out 2x but he came back each time - seems his OCD behaviors came out in his new households - so he also stayed. I wrote to their breeder, an Arie Byl. He wasn't registering any dogs but he did sent me the pedigree to their mom which I have to go look for. He said the mother was red and he was trying to get red pups but all he was getting was black and white. A few years ago there were 3 dogs that all came into different rescues in New England. They were littermates. I can't remember that breeder's name but when a friend contacted him he actually had the nerve to ask for $300 to get the ABCA paperwork signed for a transfer! Anyways, I don't blame the people who purchase from pet stores. People are not born with this knowledge. Lots of what we learn we need to learn from life experiences. And unfortunately, many of those experiences are not good ones:( Here is a short youtube video I made afer accepting a young pup into rescue from one of these families. It is sad all around... Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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