Barbie and Ken

[desertranger]

I'm wondering how many of you girls now grown up had Barbie dolls and all the shoes that went with her. I still find them (the shoes) around the house and my girls have grown and left the nest.

 

The other day I ran across the phrase "Barbie Collie" something I had never herd (sic) before. After doing some investigation I found more than I wanted to know.

 

For BC noobs if you don't already know a Barbie Collie is a BC raised for the AKC confirmation (show) ring. Something discussed on most BC (internet shorthand for border collie) forums. However I don't see any responses from the Barbie owners and that has left me with a lot of questions.

 

So I get to pick your brains. Only what do you know about Barbie dogs. You all own working dogs.

 

To start with I know the barbies are bred for appearence. I had a champion award wining BC the AKC turned down because he didn't look like a BC.

 

What is a BC supposed to look like? I know for a fact they come in all sizes, shapes and colors. Biggest BC I ever had weighed 70lbs (a tri). The smallest 35lbs. There are some very beautiful BC's and som every ugly ones as well but underneath they are still BC's.

 

 

Do they breed the working and herd instinct out of them? From what I read a lot of these dogs show no interest in things that move like sheep.

 

Does that also mean they breed 'eye' out of them as well? Jin shows strong herd instinct and good eye.

 

We were also talking about pets vs friends. Most of us do not have them as pets it seems. But what about the Barbies. Are they pets? Do people buy them as just pets.

 

Considering the Obama's have decided on a Portuguese Water Dog I expect to see a lot of people wanting one because Sasha and Malia have one. That makes me wonder does Tiger Woods have a BC as a house dog or does he work him and does Tiger having one make them more popular.

 

In posting this I have come to the conclusion that I would not like to see the BC population increase for those reasons. It has also left me with more questions. Does that make any sense.

[JohnLloydJones]

There appears to be three types of breeders, classified by their primary interest in the breed; those who breed for working ability, those who breed for conformation and those that breed just for the money. The top working dogs are the result of a very long selection process where only the very best were used for breeding. Their working style has been shaped by the need to work sheep on land that was unsuited to grazing cattle; the Cambrian mountains are rugged and craggy; the rock strata jut out oddly (the peaks were once the valleys in a distant age.).

 

Breeding for anything else than working ability dilutes the key characteristics and selection for the show ring will probably hasten the loss of behaviours that are not appealing to the judges. Malanie (SoloRiver) posted some preliminary work that suggests that show lines are already distant enough to begin to regard as another breed.

 

BTW: Not everyone here have working dogs; Senneca is a rescue and is simply the family dog, though I do some agility with her.

[Tommy Coyote]

There appears to be three types of breeders, classified by their primary interest in the breed; those who breed for working ability, those who breed for conformation and those that breed just for the money. The top working dogs are the result of a very long selection process where only the very best were used for breeding. Their working style has been shaped by the need to work sheep on land that was unsuited to grazing cattle; the Cambrian mountains are rugged and craggy; the rock strata jut out oddly (the peaks were once the valleys in a distant age.).

 

Breeding for anything else than working ability dilutes the key characteristics and selection for the show ring will probably hasten the loss of behaviours that are not appealing to the judges. Malanie (SoloRiver) posted some preliminary work that suggests that show lines are already distant enough to begin to regard as another breed.

 

BTW: Not everyone here have working dogs; Senneca is a rescue and is simply the family dog, though I do some agility with her.

I wish the show dogs were considered a completely different breed. They really should be. The ones I've seen kind of look more and more like small Newfoundlands or something. Lots and lots of coat. They are pretty to look at but they sure don't look or act like sheepdogs.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Breeding for anything else than working ability dilutes the key characteristics and selection for the show ring will probably hasten the loss of behaviours that are not appealing to the judges. Malanie (SoloRiver) posted some preliminary work that suggests that show lines are already distant enough to begin to regard as another breed.

I was going to say that as I was reading. I also heard someone once say (in regards to a different working breed) that breeding for "pretty" takes away the "smart".

I also think that the conformation "Barbie Collies" are fat.

[Laurelin]

Didn't Barbie divorce Ken recently?

[WildFlower]

I agree that breeding for looks ruins the brains. BCs are known for both brains and beauty but it should always be "Brains before Beauty."

 

I personally think that AKC BCs look just like black and white Golden Retrievers. They are big boned and well... just look all wrong.

[Sue_Deutscher]

Once you destroy a diamond, you can never get it back. It took a million (?) years to make, but it's gone forever.

 

In just a few generations, if you breed for looks instead of ability, you lose what came along with the ability. You never know what you're going to lose. It could be intelligence, herding instinct, tenacity, distinctive personality, and on and on.... It's gone forever.

 

It has happened to other breeds. It can happen to the Border Collie, too.

 

If you don't understand this, if it's confusing at all, please don't make more Border Collies. If your Border Collie doesn't EXCEL at herding, please don't make more Border Collies. Please don't make me extinct. We will all lose what a Border Collie is REALLY about.

 

Pete

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

It doesn't matter what conformation Border Collies LOOK like. By making choices that favor recessive roughs over smooths, heads a certain way, angulation, etc - that have nothing to do with actual working ability, and then not training the result to a high working level before breeding, they don't know what they are culling out of the breed.

 

This is true across the board. If you select for fast response times for a sport dog, you don't know what that's doing to the formerly balanced working package, either.

 

You can't take a breed that was previously maintained in mental and physical soundness by work, drop the work suddenly, and still have the same mentally and physically sound breed.

[JohnLloydJones]

they don't know what they are culling out of the breed.

Another possibility is that they do, but don't care.

[Tommy Coyote]

It doesn't matter what conformation Border Collies LOOK like. By making choices that favor recessive roughs over smooths, heads a certain way, angulation, etc - that have nothing to do with actual working ability, and then not training the result to a high working level before breeding, they don't know what they are culling out of the breed.

 

This is true across the board. If you select for fast response times for a sport dog, you don't know what that's doing to the formerly balanced working package, either.

 

You can't take a breed that was previously maintained in mental and physical soundness by work, drop the work suddenly, and still have the same mentally and physically sound breed.

Exactly. And I think that is why there have been so many just plain weird dogs that have come out of these breedings.

 

The same thing happened when these same people started breeding for color. They just ignored everything else and they got a lot of weird colors and dogs that often were a real mess healthwise and temperment wise.

 

But my thought is that the working instinct was culled on purpose. It got in the way of people training for obedience. And probably for sports, too. These people wanted this dog that was bidable and fast and smart but didn't care about the working instinct at all. So they just tried to breed it out. Or ignored it.

[bc friend]

My rescue dog, Katie, is a bc/springer but her mom was a akc papered bc (taken in by the same rescue as Katie). Although I "blame" a lot on her springer genes, Katie is classically marked bit much larger boned, heavier, longer coated, and not nearly as fast or agile or graceful as the other bc's I've had/have. She has NO eye whatsoever, runs AWAY from sheep, goats and cows so I think you can safely say that she has no herding instinct. Also has no interest in fetch, frisbee, agility or flyball. She does love to hunt (springer genes?) small mammals and routinely brings me "gifts" of half-grown petrified critters (rabbits, squirrels, opposums, even mice!) - she's soft-mouthed and doesn't hurt them.

 

However, Katie and every other Barbie I've met have wonderful temperaments as family pets. Aside from the "gifts" she is easy to live with, entertains herself, non-destructive when bored, and absolutely LOVES children. Although she's never unsupervised with children, I cannot imagine her nipping a child - I've seen toddlers pull her ears/tail and she turns licks the child in the face!

 

I wouldn't get another Barbie if I wanted a bc and I HATE seeing the bc breed diluted by Barbies, but I do think in general they make lovely family pets - they just need to be called a different breed so you don't expect the same behaviors as you do from a bc.

[juliepoudrier]

We were also talking about pets vs friends. Most of us do not have them as pets it seems. But what about the Barbies. Are they pets? Do people buy them as just pets.

I don't get the above statements. Are you saying pets are something different than friends? I thought the two terms were pretty much synonymous when talking about dogs. That is, the definition of a pet dog is pretty much a dog that is the human's friend, no other attributes necessary. What am I missing?

 

J.

[IronHorse]

Well lets not leave out another example of a Barbie Collie.

This is my Barbie Collie bred from ABCA bloodlines.

She has a wonderful temperment, good intelligence, excellent health and overall probably the best pet dog I have owned.

As far as working ability, none,zero,zip unless collecting box turtles count.

 

 

Now if I want to move stock I use this Border Collie

Also from ABCA bloodlines with a good temperment,amazing intelligence, excellent health and outstanding natural working ability.

Not what I would concider a good family pet dog though, snippy around kids and high energy,although she has a very good off switch.

 

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

If you don't work your dogs on stock how do you know the relative merits of one dog versus another in terms of potential on stock? And "snippy around kids" I wouldn't consider to be a mark of a good personality.

 

I don't get it, why of all people are you the champion of people who want to breed Border Collies wily-nilly with no regard for the standard that made the dogs what we have today?

 

Would you also support people who wanted to breed "teacup Great Danes"? Because, you know, most people live in apartments these days and there's no place for an estate dog.

[juliepoudrier]

Hmmm...teacup great danes, now there's an idea. Becca what say you and I get working on that? We can probably make our fortunes and then retire to our respective ranches with semi-clear consciences and good working dogs, just no teacup danes.

 

Ironhorse,

First off, if the dog is strictly ABCA then by definition it's not a Barbie Collie, since that term refers to conformation-bred dogs out of conformation lines (of course she most likely was bred for color anyway, which means that working ability wasn't put first, so I don't know how you'd draw any parallels between barbie collies--real definition--and your color-bred ABCA registered dog). But I'm guessing that at least one of those dogs is a puppymill dog, which illustrates one main point that's often made on this forum: bad breeding is bad breeding. (And by bad breeding, I mean breeding without a worthwhile purpose in mind, but just to make a buck, which includes millers, BYBs, and those who are breeding strictly for the pet market).

 

J.

[JohnLloydJones]

... the definition of a pet dog is pretty much a dog that is the human's friend, no other attributes necessary.

 

I try to avoid the word "pet" because it appears to mean different things to different people, including disposable item and fashion accessory. Friendship implies a level of social interaction that many pets do not get.

[juliepoudrier]

Well it's all relative I suppose. I consider my dogs and cats my pets and they are not disposable, nor are they fashion accessories, and they probably get way more interaction with me than many other animals people have, whether they call them pets or friends. I think it's a false dichotomy.

 

J.

[IronHorse]

If you don't work your dogs on stock how do you know the relative merits of one dog versus another in terms of potential on stock? And "snippy around kids" I wouldn't consider to be a mark of a good personality.

I never said I did not use my dogs on stock.

As for snippy around kids,perhaps I should of expounded upon that and stated that she has in the past snipped at a couple of kids who are brats and insisted on antagonizing her by their teasing with balls and sticks. Doesn't IMO warrant a bad personality.

 

I don't get it, why of all people are you the champion of people who want to breed Border Collies wily-nilly with no regard for the standard that made the dogs what we have today?

 

 

Would you also support people who wanted to breed "teacup Great Danes"? Because, you know, most people live in apartments these days and there's no place for an estate dog.

 

I think you are confusing my position of defending an individual's right to pursue breeding livestock as a money making endeavor as a position of support.

If two individuals are raising chickens, one for egg production the other for meat and I didn't like eggs but did like chicken meat well I wouldn't say to the egg producer "you don't have the right to raise chickens because I don't like eggs.He just would not get my support because i wouldn't buy his eggs.

I would however support his RIGHT to pursue his endeavor as long as it was being done reponsibly. If nobody bought his eggs then he would soon be out of buisness.

( yea yea I realize you can't have one without the other, but we wouldn't have Border Collies as we know them today had our predecessors not hatched a few wolfs into something other then what they were breeding for)

Does this clarify my position to you?

[jdarling]

IronHorse, do you breed your dogs?

[IronHorse]

Ironhorse,

First off, if the dog is strictly ABCA then by definition it's not a Barbie Collie, since that term refers to conformation-bred dogs out of conformation lines (of course she most likely was bred for color anyway, which means that working ability wasn't put first, so I don't know how you'd draw any parallels between barbie collies--real definition--and your color-bred ABCA registered dog). But I'm guessing that at least one of those dogs is a puppymill dog, which illustrates one main point that's often made on this forum: bad breeding is bad breeding. (And by bad breeding, I mean breeding without a worthwhile purpose in mind, but just to make a buck, which includes millers, BYBs, and those who are breeding strictly for the pet market).

 

I realize the term Barbie Collie was coined to refer to conformation-bred dogs but here once again I believe that the definition has spilled over to alot of ppl who since its coinage have included the bred for color dogs in what they concider the Barbie Collie group.

Perhaps thats the answer,,create a registry for the Barbie Collie.

It is the term I use when people come up to me and ask what type of dog is that? when refering to"Jazmine"(my $5,000 merle).

I simply reply "well she is a Barbie Collie" which often times leads into a very productive conversation with those who reply back "I've never heard of that breed,where does it come from?"

 

I beg to differ that breeding livestock to "make a buck"/earn revenue is not a worthwhile purpose.But I believe that is a topic more suited for another venue then the General Border Collie Discussion forum.

[MagRam]

I realize the term Barbie Collie was coined to refer to conformation-bred dogs but here once again I believe that the definition has spilled over to alot of ppl who since its coinage have included the bred for color dogs in what they concider the Barbie Collie group.

Perhaps thats the answer,,create a registry for the Barbie Collie.

It is the term I use when people come up to me and ask what type of dog is that? when refering to"Jazmine"(my $5,000 merle).

I simply reply "well she is a Barbie Collie" which often times leads into a very productive conversation with those who reply back "I've never heard of that breed,where does it come from?"

 

I beg to differ that breeding livestock to "make a buck"/earn revenue is not a worthwhile purpose.But I believe that is a topic more suited for another venue then the General Border Collie Discussion forum.

 

 

You paid $5,000 for a Border Collie that does not work at all ?? !! Why ?

[Debbie Meier]

Hey, here's something I don't get, why do people think that Ironhorse has no working dog background, based on past posts my feeling was that there was a lot more working knowledge there then there is with many other posters on the boards.

 

 

The $5000 comment, I kinda took that as that's how much has been invested not how much the dog cost. Sorta like the horse that always gets hurt, it's your $10,000 horse, don't work worth a shit but the most expensive one you have.

 

But maybe I'm totally off base.

 

Deb

[IronHorse]

IronHorse, do you breed your dogs?

 

Nope

 

Do you breed or could you breed yours?

[desertranger]

Exactly. And I think that is why there have been so many just plain weird dogs that have come out of these breedings.

 

The same thing happened when these same people started breeding for color. They just ignored everything else and they got a lot of weird colors and dogs that often were a real mess healthwise and temperment wise.

 

 

But my thought is that the working instinct was culled on purpose. It got in the way of people training for obedience. And probably for sports, too. These people wanted this dog that was bidable and fast and smart but didn't care about the working instinct at all. So they just tried to breed it out. Or ignored it.

 

That brings up the Q; Regardless of what traits Jin shows (good herding traits) is it possible he's not suited to herding, SAR or something else. Perhaps I should ask is there a way to find out what he would excel at.

 

 

 

 

I don't get the above statements. Are you saying pets are something different than friends? I thought the two terms were pretty much synonymous when talking about dogs. That is, the definition of a pet dog is pretty much a dog that is the human's friend, no other attributes necessary. What am I missing?

 

J.

 

 

I try to avoid the word "pet" because it appears to mean different things to different people, including disposable item and fashion accessory. Friendship implies a level of social interaction that many pets do not get.

 

 

I like John, he has a way of expressing my thoughts. Thx. The thing is you not only answered my questions but raised a lot more.

 

None of the animals here are pets really. They all have something to do even the lowly cats. I think after reading this more than ever I'm going to discourage people from getting a BC unless I know what kind of a home it owuld be going to.

[SS Cressa]

What is a BC supposed to look like? Everyone already has an idea of what an ideal border collie should be. According to AKC: The Border Collie is a well balanced, medium-sized dog of athletic appearance, displaying style and agility in equal measure with soundness and strength. Its hard, muscular body conveys the impression of effortless movement and endless endurance. The Border Collie is extremely intelligent, with its keen, alert expression being a very important characteristic of the breed. I can get into more detail but I am pretty sure you don't want me to about the politics and the reason behind how show border collies came to be what they are today.

 

Do they breed the working and herd instinct out of them? Does that also mean they breed 'eye' out of them as well? From the history of the UK show border collies. Basically they got the leftover border collies from farms. The dogs that show no interest in herding. And bred them. There was a lot more info then that but that is the basic.

 

I do know of several show border collie breeders who also herd with them and trial with them. No I an not talking about AKC herding trial. And I also know of show border collies breeders who don't trial but use their border collies around the "farm".

 

I do know of at least one breeder who is striving to keep the, for lack of better words, the herding gene in her lines. She even has one of their pups impress "a top hat" so much that he took her home to train it for trials with the owners permission.

 

We were also talking about pets vs friends. Most of us do not have them as pets it seems. But what about the Barbies. Are they pets? Do people buy them as just pets. I am not quite sure what you are asking... but I know some show border collie breeders that do advertise their puppy as making good pets and I know of some breeders who discourage getting a border collie as a pet since border collies need a job.