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Everything posted by MagRam

  1. I thought Little Bo Peep but then remembered she lost her sheep so I think it might be a bad omen.
  2. I have a hard time understanding how a trial can call itself the "Nationals" when it is first come first entered with no qualifying - includes instinct testing and started classes as well as their own top class and gets 8 dogs entered for the advanced class on their "B" course (the AKC field course). By contrast there were 6 dogs entered in Intermediate and 22 dogs entered for Started. How can your "Nationals" have more dogs entered in your lowest class than all other classes combined.
  3. Okay. Amy - you busted me. I am in Orange County California. To my knowledge there are two of us residing in this very populated county trialing our dogs in USBCHA trials. One of us just took two dogs to Carbondale for the Nationals (guess I needed to be clear which nationals in THIS thread). BTW - it was not me. You have seen us run and you know why it was not me - yet anyway. But you are right -there are probably not "hundreds" but there are certainly dozens of AKC folk "trialing" in Orange County. And the only training available in Orange County itself is from one AKC trainer who - although not someone I would train with - has a very devoted following. That is why I make the weekly trek toi San Diego county to train with Jennifer Ewers. But I have in the past assisted in demos at Scottish Fairs in Orange County and they are always very well attended - even to the point where the Highland Games athletes get a little put out that the sheepdogs attract more attention than the athletic games. So the general public can be interested if they are exposed to actually sheepdog work Pat Grannan
  4. The recall information is false info. I tried to buy it one night at WalMart and they had taken it off the shelf due to this rumor. I checked it out with the manufacturer and it was a false rumor. The product was back at WalMart a few days later. I would not be surprised if it results in a major lawsuit by the maker for whomever spread the rumor and actually got WalMart to pull the product for a few days. Major loss of sales and injury to business reputation.
  5. Since you are going to Free to Be Ranch - a few (hopefully) helpful tiips on watching from someone who has run there before but is not running this time. First, the turn-off to the trial field is just about a mile East out of the town of Mountainair and can be easily missed if you are driving too fast. The biggest tip-off is you will likely see a bunch of trailers and RVs parked in the field. The access road off the main hwy is not short and it is narrow. If two decent sized trucks are going opposite directions one of you will need to pull to the side. If you are coming from Albuquerque my memory is that it is about a 2 hour one way trip. Typically, Geri Abrams (owner/proprietor) has multiple events occurring simultaneously on multiple fields. Generally Open will get started first on one of the fields (no signs posted - just watch where everybody seems to be headed), and after several runs some of the sheep will be taken over to a different field for Open Ranch (equivalent of Pro-Novice). The Novice and Ranch classes typically take place in a smaller fenced field and use farm flock. But all of this can be going on with three trials running simultaneously so if you want to watch a bit of all of them you will need to be walking back and forth. And wear comfortable shoes because the ground on the fields is uneven. Also if you wish to enjoy an adult beverage you can't buy one in Mountainair so get it before you arrive and bring with you. It is a fun trial and typically you will see some very good handlers and dogs. I am not going this time but I do have friends using it as a tuneup for the Nationals to get their dogs some long outruns and practice on range ewes. As for your comment about even willing to take a NQ I think that is referring to a "Qualifying Run" which is really a term used by other organizations. There are no "Qualifying" scores or runs at a USBCHA trial. Paradoxically you will find that even though the dogs and runs are generally better scores are lower than at other organizations because the judges tend to hold them to a higher standard. I think judges in other organizations at least subconsciously score higher so people can get their Q's (it helps a judge get hired again if more people get their Q's and Titles).
  6. What really peeves me about these snippets is that they never show properly trained dogs doing actual herding so they give the public the impression this is what herding is. Gives it a bad impression in my view. BTW - I personally know the trainer in So Cal and in fact almost used him as my fiorst trainer simply do to being close. Very happy I made a different choice.
  7. Sorry - My bad. They are both real cuties BTW
  8. I am confused. From your post it says you are still thinking about getting two puppies. But your screen name Jazz/Flints mom suggests you already own Jazz and Flint. Plus the picture is of two very adoragle BC puppies named Jazz and Flint. Did you already get the two puppies ?? Also seems you are in the Newark, Ohio area. I grew up in suburban Columbus and my family still lives in the area - (mother is probably about a mile from the facility you are considering for training). The facility seems a good facility for agility training but ypu may wish to consider whether you wish to expose the pups to livestock a bit later - maybe arounfd 10 months old. There are a number of very good trainers within a reasonable drive if you wish. Just suggest staying away from all breed or AKC trainers for sheepherding if you decide to try it.
  9. A curiosity question from this year's finals - which I did not see. I noticed that in the Nursery Final run I believe there were three dogs tied on score (points) and the tie was broken on time. The shortest time won under the time and points rule. Does anyone who was there think it less likely there would have been a tie if all elements were judged ? And would judging have rewarded a different dog ?? And do you cattle people like it as is ? I assume from my conversations with at least one (Anna) that you cattle dog people like it as is. These really are just curiosity questions.
  10. Anna I knew I would hear from you and I almost e-mailed you directly to ask the same question and also to ask if you were going. But I thought it would be interesting to see more generalized responses as well. Yes - I know - as you well know I know - that USBCHA cattle trials are not usually "judged" - that's why I was able to be the judge - or more accurate "counter of heads through obstacles" at the veery first cattle trial I attended (you know this but others reading this likely do not). Seems to me that the dual sanctioning creates a lot of interesting and possibly problematic scenarios. For example if the AHBA is "judged" and the USBCHA is "time and points" as would be traditional for each - then does the "judge" have to keep two score sheets for each run ?? Is the fast but off line run that hits all the obstacles the winner for USBCHA while the slow on line run that has 1 head miss an obstacle the winner for AHBA ? On the same course and the same run ?? Can a handler choose to run for only one sanctioning body ?? Is there a different strategy for the same run depending on if you want USBCHA points or AHBA titles ? How do the AHBA levels apply to USBCHA - is level 1 - novice, level 2 - PN and Level 3 - Open ?? I just wondered if this was more common than I thought and how it is handled.
  11. That's fine. I just wanted to point out generics are also subject to stringent manufacturing protocols and required to show bioequivalency. The generics are required to go through FDA approval as to their quality - just not required to fully replicate all clinical tests because they have already been done. I think it is common to be a bit skeptical until the generics have been out for a while. I trust generics for myself so I am inclined to trust them for my dogs as well. Each person should make their own decisions on that but since I did not know this was available until my wife saw the ad on tv last night I thought I would let people know. I have no interest in either company or sale of either product. I just know many of my friends are on constant lookout for ways to cut expenses when they can so I thought I would share. BTW - I asked a vet friend also and he was not yet aware of generic but his colleague thought there was more than 1 generic already available with similar results to Frontline.
  12. I noticed recently that an upcoming local cattle trial is being advertised as sanctioned by BOTH the USBCHA and AHBA. One run - sanctioned by both organizations. I have not seen this before and wondered if it was more common in cattle trials ? Also, wondered whether people think it is a good idea or not ?
  13. Most vets sell Frontline in their offices - often for higher prices than available in the store. I have even had some (falsely btw) try to tell me I needed a prescription or an office visit to buy Frontline. There is a financial incentive for vets to continue to push FrontLine over generics. Plus there is the natural tendency to simply stay with what works. Generic drugs are, however, subject to the same rigid controls by the FDA. See FDA Statement on Generic Drugs See the following excerpt from the FDA about generics. Obviously it is referring to human testing as that is most of what they do but the same standards apply: Myths and Facts about Generic Drugs MYTH: Generics take longer to act in the body. FACT: The firm seeking to sell a generic drug must show that its drug delivers the same amount of active ingredient in the same timeframe as the original product. MYTH: Generics are not as potent as brand-name drugs. FACT: FDA requires generics to have the same quality, strength, purity, and stability as brand-name drugs. MYTH: Generics are not as safe as brand-name drugs. FACT: FDA requires that all drugs be safe and effective and that their benefits outweigh their risks. Since generics use the same active ingredients and are shown to work the same way in the body, they have the same risk-benefit profile as their brand-name counterparts. MYTH: Brand-name drugs are made in modern manufacturing facilities, and generics are often made in substandard facilities. FACT: FDA won't permit drugs to be made in substandard facilities. FDA conducts about 3,500 inspections a year in all firms to ensure standards are met. Generic firms have facilities comparable to those of brand-name firms. In fact, brand-name firms account for an estimated 50 percent of generic drug production. They frequently make copies of their own or other brand-name drugs but sell them without the brand name. MYTH: Generic drugs are likely to cause more side effects. FACT: There is no evidence of this. FDA monitors reports of adverse drug reactions and has found no difference in the rates between generic and brand-name drugs. What Is Bioequivalence? Generics are not required to replicate the extensive clinical trials that have already been used in the development of the original, brand-name drug. These tests usually involve a few hundred to a few thousand patients. Since the safety and efficacy of the brand-name product has already been well established in clinical testing and frequently many years of patient use, it is scientifically unnecessary, and would be unethical, to require that such extensive testing be repeated in human subjects for each generic drug that a firm wishes to market. Instead, generic applicants must scientifically demonstrate that their product is bioequivalent (i.e., performs in the same manner) to the pioneer drug. One way scientists demonstrate bioequivalence is to measure the time it takes the generic drug to reach the bloodstream and its concentration in the bloodstream in 24 to 36 healthy, normal volunteers. This gives them the rate and extent of absorption-or bioavailability-of the generic drug, which they then compare to that of the pioneer drug. The generic version must deliver the same amount of active ingredients into a patient's bloodstream in the same amount of time as the pioneer drug. Using bioequivalence as the basis for approving generic copies of drug products was established by the Drug Price Competition and Patent Term Restoration Act of 1984, also known as the Hatch-Waxman Act. Brand-name drugs are subject to the same bioequivalency tests as generics when their manufacturers reformulate them.
  14. For those of you still using Frontline and Frontline Plus apparently then patent protection expired in March. Generics are starting to hit the market now. The first is called Pet Armor and is currently available only at Sams Club and Walmart. More generics are expected on the market soon. The cost is about 3 - 4 per dose less than Frontline.
  15. Random thoughts and you should probably get ideas from someone with much more experience than I. Also I most likely will not come to the trial as it is simply to far for me to travel. With regard to Nursery - it is usually pretty easy to get two nursery runs in and this is something of a draw. One thing that is done often is to make the Pro Novice a combined Nursery/Pro-Novice - age qualified dogs run on the same course mixed into the same run order. They can either be judged Nursery only or for both Pro Novice and Nursery. If they want the run to count for both they simply pay a somewhat higher entry fee and the score counts for both. Sonoma does their PN run this way and very successfully. Your proposed schedule seems to run from the Novice Classes to the more experienced classes. This can be rough on the novice class dogs if you are using difficult sheep (range ewes or only semi-dog broke sheep as you describe). Often it helps for the sheep to have been run by more experienced teams before the less experienced handler teams get them. That said - having only very recently moved to Open I always appreciated being able to run on the weekend when running Pro - Novice as the class order schedules are very often built around the Open class. Mixing flocks for the sheep is a bit tricky. It can make for uneven groups. If some handlers get mixed sets from both groups the sheep may not want to stay together (although that could help with the shed). If the groups are not mixed then some handlers will get sheep from flock a and some from flock b. This could result in uneven sets and some handlers getting more favorable groups than others. Also at 120 sheep total and approximately 50 runs per day you will be re-running the sheep during the day. This is common although not ideal because the sheep will start to behave differently the more times they are re-run. Anyway these are just random thought5s. You are to be applauded for stepping up and putting on a trial. Get lot's of help and have fun.
  16. I don't know specifically about the Belle Grove trial but these are general answers: First, welcome and come on out. Usually free or very low entry fees. Usually you can bring your well behaved dog - but keep it on leash and try not to have it barking too much. Bringing your own chair and shade and refreshments is usually a very good idea. Sometimes, but not always, food and drinks are available for purchase - bringing your own chair is always a good idea. Most trials start early in the morning. 8 a.m. is actually a late start and go until done - sometimes late afternoon - sometimes mid afternoon - depends on how many dogs running. The only things to steer clear of - don't let your dog on the actual trial field or too close to the fence to the trial field (it can influence the sheep). Also, you will tend to see handlers line up two to three at a time near the entrance to the field with their dogs. These are usually the handlers who are next in the run order and they don't want to be bothered while getting ready for a run. Also let them have a few minutes to decompress after their runs. Other than that DO approach and ask questions - most everybody will be very happy to talk to you and offer helpful advice about what is going on - how to understand the course - and where you might go to try this if you are so inclined. Have fun and beware - it is addicting.
  17. MagRam

    First open run

    Having made the same move recently I can offer the following. The advice to relax is good - but it is much easier said than done. As long as you do not draw up first in the run order, make sure to watch the runs in front of you carefully. You can learn a lot about how the sheep are going to behave on that particular day and which strategies seem to be working. If the sheep are being rerun before your run make sure you pay careful attention to how the rerun groups behave. The draws may have changed. Walk the course - at least the drive and get your line of sight cues identified in advance. Most importantly - expect your dog to do well - a positive attitude can mean a lot and can transfer to your dog. Even while expecting to do well - anticipate your dog's realistic trouble spots and be ready to deal with them. Be proactive as soon as your dog goes wrong - don't simply stand at the post hoping it will get better. Realize that the pressures are different on the bigger Open courses than they are on PN courses - even on the same field. Remember the larger space between panels and other obstacles on an Open course actually gives you more time to correct problems. Most of all - enjoy the experience. It is amazingly fun.
  18. I have the SARS form of Panel Fever. Resistant to all forms of treatment attempted so far. No panel too wide that we can't zig zag around and miss it. Still looking for the cure though.
  19. I just watched this. I only watched the winning run thinking that would be the place to start. Wow it is very different from what we are used to in ISDS/USBCHA trialing. Closest thing I can think of in my experience would be an AHBA Ranch Trial course. First the trial field is small enough that it is what we would tend to think of as an arena. Then there is a whole section in the middle where they are moving sheep around from one small pen to another without ever letting them out on the field. Actually it seems it would be pretty complicated to remember what you are supposed to do. Then they let the original group of sheep back out and go through a set of panels, an interesting sort of loading ramp to nowhere, and then a pen. All of the obstacles are done with the handler able to standright at the obstacle (as opposed to our drive panels in ISDS style trials). As far as working style it seemed to me the kelpie was much more upright than the typical border collie. I don't think it was ever asked to lie down. It seemed to be more waiting direction than free thinking that you will see in top border collies. There were several "stalls" of the sheep and the Kelpie never really seemed to walk into the sheep mainly getting them going by flanking back and forth. Also there were several times when the sheep would come through an obstacle where the handler would send his dog to the head and cross the course to simply hold the sheep while the handler moved to the next obstacle. Just a very differnt thing than ISDS style trials.
  20. Just a further comment - I went to the YouTube site and looked at about 5 or 6 other dog videos from the sale. The only dog that did not cross over also did not move its cattle and was the lowest sales price from this years sale. So I can easily see that what the cattle rancher buying a dog at Red Bluff is different than what I would be looking for for a sheepdog trial. BTW - I would not want the one that could not move its stock either.
  21. Anna - you are correct. Since you know me you can correctly surmise that IF I were looking for a dog I would be looking for one for sheepdog trialing where a tendency to cross over would be a serious flaw that would need to be fixed. Thus, observing a tendency to cross over would cause me to lower the amount I would pay. Reality is I will listen to my professional advisor and pay what she tells me. It has worked pretty well for the last two dogs. But for work on a cattle ranch where the important thing is to get the cattle moving and under general control this does not seem to be as critical a factor. (Unless of course there is the cliff to one side that we always talk about). The dog did not seem to upset the livestock as it got out there and it definitely got the job done. For a young dog it held up to stock that wanted to go where they wanted to go. For someone looking for a useful dog on the ranch this is likely a very good dog. BTW - Hope to get down to your cattledog trial in a couple weeks for a look see at a cattle trial. Pat
  22. Not saying it would be a deal breaker. But not what I would be hoping to see in a $10k dog. It would give me pause and cause me to hesitate before spending that much. For that amount of money I am more cautious.
  23. Thanks for this info. That is what I thought but I was not sure. Certainly any dog - and esp young dogs - can and do cross over but if the question is whether I would pay $10K for a dog I would not want to see it crossing over 2 times out of 2 runs. But then I would be buying a dog for a different reson thanthese ranchers likely are.
  24. What Debbie said - different dogs being marketed for different purposes. BTW - Grit was sold at the 2011 sale a couple weeks ago so the proce comparisons are current. A question from watching the videos though - it looked to me like Grit crossed over on both outruns. Is this not as important inworking cattle as working sheep ?
  25. No one off to the side. The sheep generally wanted to squirt to the handler's left as you look up the field. There was a stand of trees to that side and another route up the hill to the left of the trees which the sheep tried hard to get to. Once they made up their minds to go that way very few dogs managed to get around them and bring them back. This trial is famous BTW for the sheep wanting to escape around the hill or through the stand of trees. At the risk of embarrassing myself by showing one of my poorer runs the video of my PN run from the same trial may give a bit of an idea where the sheep wanted to run. We did not do a particularly good job but it can give an idea of how the sheep wanted to behave. Although we had some splits and some attempted escapes I thought my dog showed some initiative in putting them back together and retrieving them from an attempted escape. But clearly not a good run. http://www.youtube.com/magrammedia#p/u/8/fzrjhesD5_A
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