Angel_55 Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Sometime in the near future I *might* be looking to add a new BC into the household! Don't know for sure yet, depends on how things work out, but in the meantime, I thought I'd get some breeders to check into. I don't mind shipping a puppy, but I would prefer a more local breeder. I am located in Idaho... And now for 2 kind of off topic questions/comments: -I have a friend who is looking into getting a pup from Rising Sun Farm http://risingsunfarm.com/index.html are they a good place to go to? -Also, our local animal shelter has four adorable puppies that look like full BC's to me... had to post a link. I would get them, but they will probably be gone before I'd be ready for another pup http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=12987675 http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=12987676 http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=12987678 http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=12987679 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Is your friend in Idaho also? I wouldn't go to the trouble of shipping a pup sight unseen from anywhere when we have great breeders right here in Idaho and the surrounding area. Patrick Shannahan (Caldwell, ID) Dianne Deal (Caldwell, ID) Don Helsley (sorta near New Plymouth, ID) Norm Close (Coeur d'Alene, ID) Karen Child (Central Oregon) Jodi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Patrick Shanahan's Red Top Kennel is in Caldwell, Idaho. Here's the link: Red Top Kennel. Just my opinion, but Rising Sun seems to be choosing dogs based on their colors or the colors they carry. If you search this forum for "Astra" you'll find plenty of opinions. And it seem the only trialing type claims they make for their dogs are all in the lower classes, which isn't much of an endorsement for a breeding program to me. ETA:oops! I see that Jodi already gave you a great list to work from. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I know one dog from Rising Sun. Her pedigree is like a reasonable facsimile of Solo's, exact same lines, crossed the same way, as if someone took a sibling or cousin of every dog in his pedigree and used them to recreate Solo's pedigree. She was, unlike Solo, raised in a loving household by a very knowledgeable owner and trainer. She has all the behavioral problems that Solo has, but worse. She bites people. She is a daughter of their foundation bitch and their favorite red stud dog, and a full sib to another of their important brood bitches. There are so many other breeders I would rather get a pup from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anda Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Don't have anything valuable to add to this thread, just wanted to express my surprise at the resemblance of Ladd (on the front page of the site) to your gorgeous Solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Hmm. I haven't been on that site in quite a while. What's with all the imported dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Don't have anything valuable to add to this thread, just wanted to express my surprise at the resemblance of Ladd (on the front page of the site) to your gorgeous Solo. Yep. (Well, except that Solo is so much better looking...) And now you know why! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Yep. (Well, except that Solo is so much better looking...) And now you know why! I know this wont be popular but, my dogs are from similar lines on one side and they are great dogs. I agree Astra doesnt do their homework on who they send dogs too esp one M.H. and yes you can get better working dogs but, they arent bad dogs as least in the lines I've met. Oh and my dogs arent a MH dog but, a dog bought direct from Scotland who was from an Astra standing dog. Then man died and all his dogs went to Glen highlands so that's another kettle of fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLW1 Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I've got a dog from Rising Sun. I got him to do agility with and then got interested in working sheep with him. He's a fantastic dog with a few quirks which I've seen in varying degrees from other dogs I know that are closely related. I absolutely adore him and he's taught me a lot, both in agility and on sheep and about dogs in general. I still haven't figured him out and he's almost 6 years old. Since I got him, I've gone on to get 4 more border collies, all from working breedings. If I knew now what I didn't know then - I wouldn't have gotten him (though I can't imagine not having him!). The breeder does have some nice dogs on paper (and a couple of breedings on the ground right now that look nice on paper) but other than a few of her dogs which are with a handler in VA, they're not being worked to a level I'd like to see. She's got a lot of dogs and does a lot of breeding. Not something I like to support. It seems like there are quite a few people in Idaho breeding some nice working dog that will probably suit the OP just fine...and probably cost less too! (I have no idea what Rising Sun is charging now for puppies though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 For December 2008 and January 2009, I counted two litters of border collies and two of Aussies plus several litters of kittens in the works. Kittens? Cat breeders? Your friend wants a pup from someone who also breeds cats on purpose? While some of the border collie bloodlines are impressive, the breeders would have to make a bigger effort in USBCHA trials before I would give these folks the time of day. ASCA and AHBA are wading pools for dogs supposed to be as good as these are. Also the person handling in open for the kennel makes me a tad curious about where the open trial was and its quality. There are a couple of top notch litters on the ground near Boise right now. Patrick Shannahan or Dianne Deal will know where they are. I vaguely recollect that someone from Idaho with a funny blog who is also on the these Boards has a bitch named Vangie that has either whelped recently or is about to. I would consider one of those pups. The lines are doing well on the trial field, or so I understand. I bought a good Norman Close bitch named Maid from Don Helsley. I would rush to get a pup from either and avoid Rising Sun. Regardless of the individual border collie pedigrees, it is not the kind of operation I will support with money: AKC registration and 16 border collie dams. Come to think of it, I'll think I'll go count all the dogs, both Aussies and border collies. Penny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLW1 Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I know one dog from Rising Sun. Her pedigree is like a reasonable facsimile of Solo's, exact same lines, crossed the same way, as if someone took a sibling or cousin of every dog in his pedigree and used them to recreate Solo's pedigree. She was, unlike Solo, raised in a loving household by a very knowledgeable owner and trainer. She has all the behavioral problems that Solo has, but worse. She bites people. She is a daughter of their foundation bitch and their favorite red stud dog, and a full sib to another of their important brood bitches. There are so many other breeders I would rather get a pup from. I know a dog from the same breeding, rather, I knew a dog. He was put down last year due to his behavioral issues which had gotten out of control. Very closely related to the dog that I have but mine has none of the same issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Not including puppies and dogs listed for reference, 34 dogs are on the website. The accomplishments of anyone running a breeding operation with that many adult dogs would have to be much higher than those touted before Rising Sun should get so much as a cursory inquiry. And there's a conformation, I guess, bitch imported from Poland that carries some exotic color gene for a light shade of purple. Yeah, I know what it's called. Penny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 << Kittens? Cat breeders? Your friend wants a pup from someone who also breeds cats on purpose?>> PennyT Penny, you owe me a keyboard . Love cats, but never in my life paid for one LOL. Good points too, I get the heebie jeebies when you see someone only kinda involved in trialing with so many litters on the ground. They do look good on paper, but I've had dogs that look good on paper that flopped spectacularly on sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenkshipley Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 She has all the behavioral problems that Solo has, but worse. She bites people. She is a daughter of their foundation bitch and their favorite red stud dog, and a full sib to another of their important brood bitches. There are so many other breeders I would rather get a pup from. Temperament issues in the Rising Sun lines are prevalent, period. When this breeder is informed of temperament issues she blames those issues on "Border Collie quirkiness" and "herding drive" or insinuates some failure on the part of the owner of the affected dog. Unfortunately I have personal experience with this as I own a granddaughter of Mowtion whose mother is out of Red Spot. Somewhat of an uncharacteristic impulse buy that has taught me a very large life lesson. Yes, my girl has bitten people as have two of her litter mates. I can assure you that she was raised with plenty of socialization, lots of life experiences and positive training by someone experienced with Border Collies and in dog training. She had serious confidence issues, no work ethic and developed very reactive behavior and fear aggression at social maturity. It it took me about a year and a half of serious work and dedication and often emotional heartache with the use of Control Unleashed techniques to pull her out of the abyss of fear and lack of confidence. She still is highly affected by environmental stimulus and triggers and can deal with very little pressure in training or life in general, but she has come a very, very long way. Her father is from a decent working line that actually has siblings and relatives trialing at Open level; however she is horrible on sheep. Picture a desperately running flock of ewes with a small, black and white Border Collie attached in pit bull-like fashion to the unluckiest - wool flying everywhere. There is also deafness in the father's line yet he is still being bred. Her sisters have similar issues. There is also lots of hip dysplasia in the line and loose hips are fairly prevalent. I know quite a few people with dogs from these lines with behavioral issues. Please let anyone you hear of considering a dog from there that they are risking much. My little girl has come very far but I would never again touch anything related. I am not a breeder basher, however this line truly should not be being bred and this breeder breeds for money, pure and simple. Tell your friend to avoid the mistakes I made and to find a responsible breeder who is breeding Border Collies for the right reasons. There are plenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 If the results in terms of livestock working were not title venue oriented and did not include AKC registration that might change my assessment. I'm fairly pragmatic. What stuns me is that I have heard of seasoned agility competitors buying pups there. I was under the naive impression sport dog buyers were far more picky about not supporting largish scale breeders than working dog owners. Is that not the case? Or are people suckers for a beautiful website with dogs trailing more titles than the Wogglebug from the Wizard of Oz books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Angel, I'm surprised no one else has said this, so I will bite the bullet. Have you considered getting a BC from rescue? If this is an alternative, you might want to start the process now, as it can take some time. (No, I am not being judgemental; rescues are staffed by volunteers who donate their time, and the application and review processes can only be conducted based on time availability between all of the other wonderful work they do.) By the time you are ready, you could be positioned to obtain a BC from rescue without the processing time delay. Just a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 ...There are a couple of top notch litters on the ground near Boise right now. Patrick Shannahan or Dianne Deal will know where they are... Penny When I was looking for a Border Collie last August, I emailed Patrick Shannahan. I explained that we were just looking for a pet some 5 years after the death of our previous Border Collie, but it was important to me to get a puppy who had the intensity, focus and balance of a working bred dog. I didn't really expect a reply, but he sent back a nice email recommending a litter due soon in Oregon. Said he had a dog from the same cross, and she was a good dog for both work and home. I contacted the lady, and at the end of December picked up the puppy from the airport. Our agreement was that she would pick the puppy most likely to succeed as a pet. Black Jack shows the typical signs of a Border Collie - focus, the crouch, swinging wide around the other dogs to come in from their front...he'll not experience sheep herding, but he seems pretty happy and, at <4 months, is a fine pet Border Collie. All the working breeders I talked to were very nice and helpful. I remain very grateful to Patrick Shannahan for his suggestion. Why go to someone who breeds multiple breeds (and cats!), when you can find breeders who produce a litter a year with both parents known workers? BTW - even south of Tucson, we sometimes get snow. Black Jack dislikes weather <60 degrees, but made an exception once the other dogs started playing...sorry the picture is a bit blurred, but it was still a bit dark out. El Rust-bo the Aussie was about the lead the attack on the unsuspecting Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I was under the naive impression sport dog buyers were far more picky about not supporting largish scale breeders than working dog owners. Is that not the case? Or are people suckers for a beautiful website with dogs trailing more titles than the Wogglebug from the Wizard of Oz books? Like anything, it depends on the individual sport dog buyer. The sport dog buyers that I know personally are picky about where their dogs come from, but there are thousands of sport dog folks and of course within that population there will be a large variation on what people understand, believe, and think regarding breeders and buying dogs - even among the more seasoned folks (one of which I am not yet). I can say FWIW that I wouldn't buy from such a breeder, and that nobody I know personally would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLW1 Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I know a top agility competitor who got a dog from Rising Sun a couple of years ago and he's a total dud and she's stopped doing agility with him (and tried him on sheep and he had no interest). Now she's got year old dog that's from a really nice working breeding from an Open handler and guess what? The dog of her dreams...everything she wants in an agility dog. I am amazed sometimes about the choices that big name agility people make in where they buy dogs from. Totally amazed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 -Also, our local animal shelter has four adorable puppies that look like full BC's to me... had to post a link. I would get them, but they will probably be gone before I'd be ready for another pup http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=12987675 http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=12987676 http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=12987678 http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=12987679 I have been watching petfinder for the last year or so. There always seems to be a lot of bc's in Idaho all the time, so I wouldn't cross out rescue. I thought about going to a breeder once too, but after I started digging and found the right people to talk to, I realized that there are more bc's within a 6 hour drive that need homes than there are being properly bred so, there is a good chance we'll end up rescuing one, probably from Idaho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 If RS kennel stinks on the surface you should check it out a little deeper while still protectively holding your nose. Local guy has one - it was shipped to him covered in swollen and oozing face wounds, because apparently all adults and puppies are in a communal pen after weaning. Which means pups with no social skills get bit, and bit, and bit and bit.... The pup arrived terrified of other dogs, and then grew up to be a weak as dishwater worker who is being given away because he's endangering their kid. And this was an *experienced* home, not a pet person who didn't make an effort. RS also inbreed one some horrific temperaments. In particular one multi titled nut they've favored I have seen bite a person because they dared to stoop near it while it was watching sheep. The person of course got screamed at because you should "never bother a working dog" Utter BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Wow, this is a really informative thread. I'm glad it got started... I asked about RS once a long time ago on here but never got an answer about them. I've been a regular stalker of RS's website, mostly because, well, who doesn't love puppy pictures? Guess I hadn't thought of or realized all the stuff that has come to the surface with this thread- good to know because they were someone that I was eventually thinking of possibly getting a pup from. I had always been a bit suspicious about the sheer number of dogs/litters they have each year though. Guess I need to learn what to look for in a working dog breeder, and/or how to go about doing so. Fortunately though, probably will be a while before I can get another pup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I count 23 adult Border Collies (16 females, 7 males) and 13 adult Aussies (7 females, 6 males) for a total of 36 adult dogs, and 4 litters of puppies on the ground -- not to mention the cats and the sheep. I couldn't even imagine ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_55 Posted February 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Wow! I never knew that about Rising Sun... I guess I should have though. An agility lady I'm friends with around here has a red and white BC from RS, very fast agility dog, but totally not friendly at all. I thought it was just that dog's personality, but apparently it's the bloodlines. The lady loves visiting Angel because "You're BC is soooo much sweeter than mine!". My friend has seen that BC run, so that's what put her looking into Rising Sun. I'll make sure I tell her! (she was looking at the Roy x Irish litter) I have been checking out rescue... thus the puppies. I will always look at rescue first, but if there isn't a dog I like up for adoption, I'm going to go to a working breeder. Dianne Deal is the one who told our family about Julie Woods (she had puppies on the ground), the breeder we got Angel from. It was Nipper x Howdy, and I would love to get a dog of that cross again except for the part that Angel has epilepsy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I count 23 adult Border Collies (16 females, 7 males) and 13 adult Aussies (7 females, 6 males) for a total of 36 adult dogs, and 4 litters of puppies on the ground -- not to mention the cats and the sheep. I couldn't even imagine ... Are you sure you're not counting some twice? We wouldn't want to exaggerate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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