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And you never answered the question that I asked you several times. What would you do if I had purchased Fever from you and she had developed all of the temperament and health issues that she has developed? Would you say, too bad, you bought her, your problem? If so, I would have no interest in buying a dog from you either.

Huh? I went back and read every response you made to me and didn't see that question asked of me once, let alone several times. I don't think my reading comprehension skills have slipped that badly for me to have missed a direct question posed to me "several times." But since you think you asked the question, my answer is that you are posing an impossible hypothetical. First, as I stated previously, if I breed a litter, the pups are going to go to people I know well, whom I trust to take care of the dogs as I would take care of them, so you wouldn't have an option to buy from me. I don't have a slick website, I don't pump out litters, I am interested only in the complete package of stock working ability: I am an apple compared to the orange that is the breeder you're talking about. The first time I bred a litter of pups with problems would be the last time that cross was made, and in fact would probably have resulted in the neutering of the two dogs involved (assuming their first litter was as rife with problems as you describe Fever's litter to be). So that already makes me an entirely different sort of breeder than the one you're talking about. Asking me what I'd do if I bred a litter like Fever's is pointless because I don't think I would have bred a litter like Fever's. You want me to say I'd refund your money and let you keep the dog because that's what you think should happen in your case. I don't disagree with your position for your particular case, BUT trying to extrapolate your particular situation to any other breeder just won't work, for the reasons I've tried to explain in my previous posts. FWIW, I did have one person who wasn't happy with a pup from the *one* litter I bred (out of proven open-level working dogs). I did offer that person a refund of the puppy price and offered to take the dog back. In this case, the problem was the way the dog worked and I thought that perhaps a different handler would make a difference, hence the offer to take the dog back and place it more appropriately. (So this is a different situation from the one you're in, because the issue wasn't physical/behavioral problems, but rather a working situation where it seemed that the dog and handler weren't a good fit. The handler liked the dog's personality and there were no health problems. It would make sense to take the dog back in such a situation since it would be possible to find a better fit and help the dog reach its full working potential. Again, appples and oranges compared with your situation.)

 

Here's your situation as I see it. You made a snap decision to buy a puppy and did not research the breeder thoroughly. You ended up with a dog with multiple, serious problems. After the fact, you did some research and found out that this breeder was not someone you should have bought a pup from, given the history of problems with some of their breedings. Apparently you signed a contract with this breeder detailing who was responsible for what. If that contract stated that the breeder would refund your money and take the dog back should problems arise, then that's what should have happened per the signed contract. If you didn't like the terms of the contract, you should not have signed it in the first place. (I think we all know that one becomes attached to a pup or dog fairly quickly, so giving it up at some later date would be extremely difficult, but this does sound like a pretty standard contract for folks who use them.) IMO, if you really want to fight the terms of the contract, you have recourse and that is in the courts. You say that you've shouldered the blame for your part in this and that's it's really the poor dog who got the raw end of the deal. Well, let me ask you a question. If you had bought this dog from a BYB or a pet store, would we even be having this conversation? Would people have responded with "Well, you should have known better than to make such a purchase decision?" I have already stated that I think the breeder is at fault for continuing to breed dogs with issues, BUT why people are still buying these dogs is beyond me, and as long as there are willing buyers, the breeder will continue to produce dogs (just like with BYBs and mills). It looks to me like this is an awful, stinky, hard-earned life lesson for you, and by airing your story, hopefully you will save others from the heartache (and damage to the pocketbook) that you've incurred. As far as what to do about this particular breeder, I think you've done all you can, short of going to court. And I still think it's wrong to judge all breeders on the basis of your experience with this one breeder.

 

J.

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I actually am quite surprised that you would consider taking on a dog from another breeder that was already returned for behaivoral problems, why you would set yourself up to fail a second time is beyond me. You already failed with one, so your going to try it again, oh yeah, it was all the breeders fault, I forgot.

 

 

Well, Deb I hope you aren't constantly breeding the same dogs over and over again who have produced numerous severe temperament issues in the pups or, god forbid that you would repeat a breeding or perform a closely related breeding of dogs that have produced seizures, IBD or other serious health issues. Otherwise, the owners who actually care about the dogs they have raised to adulthood who aren't willing to send their adult dogs back to you to do god knows what with are pretty much crap out of luck, just like I am.

 

The puppy in question, she is five months old, was sold to an inexperienced Border Collie home, which I am not. I was asked to try her out by people who know the breeder personally. I have friends who own related dogs. I know of or have met multiple related dogs. Unlike Fever's situation, none of the relatives, litter mates or previously bred puppies have serious temperament issues. All are successfully participating in the activities that their owners have chosen for them. None have serious medical issues.

 

I regularly foster for rescue and I regulary see dogs turned in to shelter or sent to rescue for "supposed" behavior problems who are perfectly normal dogs in need of structure, some kind of regular activity and exercise. It is very easy for a young, high energy and naturally curious Border Collie to end up in the wrong home and with bad habits. I have fostered quite a few, none of whom were truly temperamentally unsound. Now Fever, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. I think the temperament issues that exist in her line are well documented and that there have been examples listed many times just in the orignal discussion in this topic alone.

 

I arranged with the breeder to take a look at the puppy. The breeder has agreed to pay the expense of return if the puppy does in fact turn out to have behavior problems. They are also paying half of the cost of x-ray to PennHip which I have agreed to reimburse if the puppy's hips turn out okay. The breeder checked me out and talked to me quite a bit before agreeing to the puppy coming to me instead of back to them. Their contract is very rationale and supportive of both the dogs they create as well as the people who purchase from them. I find this breeder's behavior in response to a problem with one of their puppies refreshing, responsible and caring.

 

The puppy is focused, appropriate with my three bitches, operative, interactive, intelligent and responsive. She is confident and tests the boundaries, which I find desirable not problematic in a BC puppy. Certainly far from crazy and certainly not even in the same league as Fever in temperament issues. I am keeping my fingers, toes and hairs crossed that her x-rays are clean.

 

 

I wish you well with your next dog.

 

Well, thank you! So do I.

 

Jen

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You already failed with one, so your going to try it again, oh yeah, it was all the breeders fault, I forgot.

 

That was pointlessly hateful. Even *if* Jen handled Fever all wrong, she did not make her sick. Or are you implying that's possible as well?

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People who own dogs should be emotionally attached to the dogs they own or something is wrong with the person in my opinion.

 

Jen, there are people on this board, and in the real world, who own, train, and use these dogs for a purpose. They are not all pets. And there is nothing wrong with that. I have dogs I am attached to, and some that are here solely for working purposes. Personally, if I were you, I would have either returned your dog a long time ago, found it an appropriate home if possible, or put it down. Yes, I really said that.

 

You sound like you consider dogs little more then livestock. Ick is all I have to say.

 

If the counties, cities and states would consider these dogs a little more like livestock, the ranchers would be grateful. The city/county licensing issues and dog limits and laws, etc. are getting pretty ridiculous, not to mention expensive.

 

I find you disturbing.

 

Is this really necessary? Quite a few people took the time, effort and energy to engage in your discussion, and not once did anyone strike out and insult you.

 

What would you do if I had purchased Fever from you and she had developed all of the temperament and health issues that she has developed?

 

I can tell you ... I would not have refunded your money. Because your dog came up with a whole host of issues didn't negate all the work I put into my breeding dogs to prove them worthy of being bred, hip tests, eye tests, etc. But to answer your question, you would have a better shot of getting your money back from me if the pup didn't work livestock -- because that's where my guarantee would be. I cannot and would not guarantee the health of the pup any more than a weatherman can predict the weather. I can try to line the sun up with the trees and move the clouds out of the way, but if Mother Nature has other plans ... there's not much I can do about that. The effect it would have on me is how I handle future breedings. But yes, the puppy you bought would be yours to do what you wish with. If you decided you wanted to rehome it, could not keep it, or decided it needed to be put down and you didn't want to be the one to do it, I would handle it. But cash would not exchange hands. Would I replace it? Perhaps. It would depend on your temperament.

 

So you'd like to get your money back, and keep the dog? I don't think you're really going to find too many breeders who would do this. It's great that you're here deterring people from buying from this breeder ... too bad it's for all the wrong reasons. There are plenty of other reasons not to buy from this particular breeder, but not being willing to refund your money and let you keep the dog isn't one of them.

 

I feel that ANY breeder who I had purchased this dog from who has multiple serious issues which she shares in some variety with at least two of the five litter mates, should have refunded me for this dog.

 

Perhaps you should put the time, effort and energy into proving up your dogs, have a litter, and then come back and tell us how willing you are to refund money years later for pups that developed things you had no control over and tried your darndest to avoid.

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I just want to say that I commend you for sticking by Fever and doing all that you can to help him to be as healthy as possible - especially given the fact that he can't do the sports that you had planned on. I know first hand that seeing the potential there and not being able to move forward because it's in the best interest of the dog can be a tough, tough thing.

 

Chances of you getting anything from the breeder are, I think, slim, but hopefully the fact that you have shared your experience will steer some people away from this breeder.

 

I wish you the best with Fever, and with finding a fantastic Agility dog next time around.

 

 

Thank you!

 

I would have been okay, which I don't think some people realize with Fever not excelling at dog sports. I do believe, after soon to be 15 years in the sport, that any experienced trainer can take a temperamentally sound, healthy, structurally sound BC and train it so some level of success in agility. What level of success is definitely an unknown and depends on the individual dog, handler and training - hence the term prospect.

 

A prospect, however, is certainly not a dog sold for $1000 + who suffers from severe temperament issues which have surfaced many times in previously bred, related dogs or who has structural or health issues that prevents the dog from participating at all.

 

I was fully aware that I wasn't going to get anything from this breeder. I want as many people as I can reach to know that and to know what issues are a real risk from the lines.

 

I love Fever and Fever loves me. :rolleyes: She is able to have a good quality of life in a stable environment and her health is stable. I hope deeply that she never has another seizure or that yet another health issue doesn't crop up down the road. That will always be a worry, but so far so good. So, I am thankful for that.

 

Best,

Jen

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Quite a few people took the time, effort and energy to engage in your discussion, and not once did anyone strike out and insult you.

 

You didn't find Debbie's insuation about why Fever wasn't spayed until she was 2 insulting? I did.

 

But to answer your question, you would have a better shot of getting your money back from me if the pup didn't work livestock -- because that's where my guarantee would be
.

 

Oh, she doesn't work livestock. That's for sure.

 

Would I replace it? Perhaps. It would depend on your temperament.

 

Ha ha ha. Good one. Whether I would consider another dog from you or not in replacement would depend on the quality of your breeding. From this breeder, not even an option. Ick.

 

It's great that you're here deterring people from buying from this breeder ... too bad it's for all the wrong reasons.

 

I don't agreee and there are a lot of breeders and people who would not agree.

 

 

Perhaps you should put the time, effort and energy into proving up your dogs, have a litter, and then come back and tell us how willing you are to refund money years later for pups that developed things you had no control over and tried your darndest to avoid.

 

 

Yeah, because that's what happened here. Um, not even close and I think we've all made that abundantly clear.

 

If you want to defend your own breeding practices, fine by me. I hope you don't make decisions that are anywhere near the decisions that Fever's breeder regularly makes. I hope that, if you do make anything like those decisions, that you don't hope that anyone planning on buying a puppy from you is able to successfully complete enough research on your lines and past breedings before purchasing to know that your breeding practices are questionable. I hope you instead take responsibility for informing prospective owners of the potential problems that have shown up in the many, many previous breedings you have done of the same lines over and over and over again, multiple times a year.

 

Because again we were talking about one specific breeder not defending or arguing the merits or ethics of all breeders.

 

Since I only need one dog (unless I am dishonestly sold one that may develop issues that have cropped up MULTIPLE times in the past breedings) every 5 - 8 years, I have no intention of ever breeding. There are plenty of people doing that already.

 

Best,

Jen

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Otherwise, the owners who actually care about the dogs they have raised to adulthood who aren't willing to send their adult dogs back to you to do god knows what with are pretty much crap out of luck, just like I am.

>>Jen

 

I guess I don't understand this... obviously you must get some benefit from the dog's place in your life, or you wouldn't have shelled out $5000 in vet bills for it. The purchase price of a pup is a drop in the bucket compared to a lifetime of expense needed to maintain that pup. You got a bum deal, a dog with issues, but she is still "your" dog.

 

As far as Deb treating dogs with livestock, while I wouldn't be as adamant on spaying or not spaying returned dogs, I think you are being unfair. A breeder must make tough decisions, I'd much rather a breeder make breeeding decisions based on what will produce the best results rather than emotional decisions based on which dogs they are bonded too the most. The breeder you are dealing with now appears to make decisions based on what a puppy buyer will be attracted too, if that breeder treated their dogs like livestock they wanted the best results out of, you would not find yourself in this situation.

 

I understand your frustration- believe me having a poorly bred dog is very heart breaking. I got a backyard bred Border Collie, decent working lines but bred frankly to sell in the paper that has been health and fairly temperamentally sound but is a horrid working dog. It never occurred to me to ask for money back on her, because I realized the more I learned that I had made a poor decision in picking my first border collie. I never was able to trial her or use her in a useful working situation, although she was quite keen to work. If I could have done it again, I would have rehomed her because living 15 years with a dog you barely tolerate is not something I'd do again. If you are bonded to your dog, keep her and consider a lesson well learned. She doesn't sound adoptable, but it's your choice what you do with her- PTS, return her or keep her. If keeping her is the decision you make, I'd suggest making peace with it and moving on.

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Well, Deb I hope you aren't constantly breeding the same dogs over and over again who have produced numerous severe temperament issues in the pups or, god forbid that you would repeat a breeding or perform a closely related breeding of dogs that have produced seizures, IBD or other serious health issues

 

 

Oh, I'm your worst fear..... in your mind anyway, appears as if it has run off on you. :rolleyes:

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You didn't find Debbie's insuation about why Fever wasn't spayed until she was 2 insulting? I did.

 

Actually, Deb and I apparently cross-posted. My screen was up for a while, and I didn't see she had posted in the meantime. Yes, highly inappropriate and unnecessary. I'm sorry she sunk to that level.

 

If you want to defend your own breeding practices, fine by me ... Because again we were talking about one specific breeder not defending or arguing the merits or ethics of all breeders.

 

Here's where I am going to step out of the conversation. You keep saying that we're referring to one breeder, yet you continue to make statements like this:

 

YES. I feel that ANY breeder who I had purchased this dog from who has multiple serious issues which she shares in some variety with at least two of the five litter mates, should have refunded me for this dog.

 

As much as you don't want to admit it, you're painting all breeders with the same brush, and lumping everyone together. Then, when it's convenient to your part of the conversation, you switch back to the "one particular" breeder thing.

 

By the way ... your posts are a bit tough to read because of the "quote" function. Try this. In front of the part you want to quote, type this (with no spaces):

 

[ q u o t e ]

 

At the end of the particular part you want to quote, type this (with no spaces):

 

[ / q u o t e ]

 

You need to do that around each blurb you are quoting from another person, otherwise it looks like you said it.

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I love Fever and Fever loves me. :rolleyes: She is able to have a good quality of life in a stable environment and her health is stable. I hope deeply that she never has another seizure or that yet another health issue doesn't crop up down the road. That will always be a worry, but so far so good. So, I am thankful for that.

 

Best,

Jen

 

 

Your clip really speaks for itself. Given what you write, what possible rationale is there for getting both your beloved dog and a refund? It's like saying that the dress that you bought is damaged, so you'd like to get your money back, but you still want to keep it and wear it to the prom. It's also pretty clear that when it comes down to the nitty gritty, you're fully aware that the flaws of the dog are not significant compared to the value that she has for you. You have paid +$1,000 for a dog that you love -- and a lesson in what caveat emptor means. You've actually gotten a pretty good bargain.

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As far as Deb treating dogs with livestock, while I wouldn't be as adamant on spaying or not spaying returned dogs, I think you are being unfair. A breeder must make tough decisions, I'd much rather a breeder make breeeding decisions based on what will produce the best results rather than emotional decisions based on which dogs they are bonded too the most. The breeder you are dealing with now appears to make decisions based on what a puppy buyer will be attracted too, if that breeder treated their dogs like livestock they wanted the best results out of, you would not find yourself in this situation.

 

 

Okay this is the last post I am posting.

 

Good breeders make tough decisions. Good breeders breed based on what they produce. This is definitely not the situation with this breeder.

 

Yes, I made a quick decision and bought a dog whose lines had produced serious issues in the past. I was referred to the breeder by a well known agility instructor, I was upset over a major injury to my dog. I bought a puppy. I signed a contract. I have been clear that I feel I am not absolved of any fault in what happened.

 

That doesn't let the breeder off the hook for selling puppies to people out of repeat or closely related breedings that have produced multiple problems.

 

I will not buy a puppy from this type of person again. I will probably not ever buy a puppy period. There are plenty of nice young dogs needing homes that I can know a lot more about then a puppy.

 

It doesn't absolve the breeder of her negligence. I don't know why it turned into a defense of every person who ever breeds. This breeder should have informed me of the risks. I was very clear about why I was purchasing a puppy from her and for what purpose. She could have told me the puppy just would not be suitable for my purposes, that it may have temperament issues that might not make it ideal for that type of activity, that she wouldn't guarantee based on the previous issues she had bred that the dog wouldn't be crazy. She didnt' do any of those things.

 

She still breeds the dog's mother.

 

If one person read this thread and is careful about where they buy and about related dogs to my dogs then I am happy.

 

 

If I could have done it again, I would have rehomed her because living 15 years with a dog you barely tolerate is not something I'd do again. If you are bonded to your dog, keep her and consider a lesson well learned. She doesn't sound adoptable, but it's your choice what you do with her- PTS, return her or keep her. If keeping her is the decision you make, I'd suggest making peace with it and moving on.

 

 

My goal of responding again to this thread and by contacting the breeder to determine if she would even acknowledge the issues, never mind a refund, I knew I wasn't getting that although I feel I deserve one, was to warn others.

 

Hopefully it worked!

Jen

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Here's a general question for everyone to consider.

Where does breeder responsibility end and owner/buyer responsibility begin?

 

We tell everyone not to buy from puppymills because of the conditions for the dogs and the problems the pups have; but what about buying from crosses with known problems. Shouldn't the buyer educate themselves about these things prior to the purchase? If no one buys the pups from these litters then additional litters won't be made.

 

 

In this case here are some questions to consider.

You say that similar breedings produced dogs with similar problems. Did these breedings occur prior to the purchase of your pup or after? If prior, then what prevented you from finding this out prior to your purchase; if after then how would the breeder know, in the case of your litter, that the breeding yielded these problems?

 

I'm not saying that the buyer bears all the responsibility; however, I am saying the buyer is not free from any responsibility. I'd also like to know where everyone thinks the line is between breeder and buyer responsibility.

 

Mark

 

(sorry I missed the previous post while I was working on this one)

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I think we are getting stuck on the refund part here, which to me is actually not very important. In this case I think the saddest thing is that the breeder does not appear to give much of a crap about the dog in question, nor is the breeder interested in being a resource in terms of advice, help, a sympathetic ear, whatever, for the owner in question. Whether or not it is part of the contract, it is something a decent person should do.

 

Jen's admitted her mistake in choosing this breeder quite freely and yes, a lot of the burden is on her but it does not excuse the behavior of Fever's breeder. Whether that means she deserves a refund, I don't know. I do know Jen and know that she is an extremely responsible owner who works very hard and does right by her dogs. I also know that problems of the sort that Fever has are almost certainly congenital, not environmental -- yes, there are a lot of ways to screw up a dog but it is very difficult to MAKE a dog have the kinds of behavioral problems that Fever has. What's the old saw? "Some temperaments are too good to ruin, others are too bad to save?" If you start with a stable substrate, actually installing the sorts of anxiety problems seen in these lines is practically impossible. If you start with a flawed substrate, the opposite occurs. Again, certainly it is possible to screw up a dog through bad upbringing but knowing Jen it is impossible for me to believe that this is something that she did to her dog.

 

If I were a breeder, which I am not, and this is a dog that I bred, I would be very concerned and communicating with Jen about the problems even if I did not think she was entitled to a refund. The fact that Jen has gotten almost nothing but radio silence -- particularly after the news of digestive disorders and epilepsy -- speaks volumes about this breeder.

 

-- Melanie (posting from Amman, Jordan -- yay for free wireless internet)

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Thank you Mark. These questions have been in my mind throughout this thread, but I really hesitated to add to it - because underneath it all is the fact that the particular breeder in question is not one I'd ever, ever, ever recommend. But that goes back to what keeps coming up in my mind - if the problems are so well known and "out there" - even a cursory amount of asking around would uncover them. They get most of their business via a slick web site and a history of producing hotshot, pretty, sport dogs. But I don't know many people who would say they are a great place to get a nice family dog with stocckdog potential.

 

Anyway, the question at hand is a good one too though. I've purchased pups with and without written contracts. The "withouts" came with a verbal agreement and an implicit testimony that the breeder would stand behind his or her pup. In no case was the contract a protection for ME. It represented the breeder's desire to keep his or her own lines under supervision, stay in contact with the pups, and make sure that if anything went wrong, they had the chance to evaluate personally the situation - potentially by bringing the pup back if need be.

 

But that sort of attitude protects me, because such breeders take pride in what they produce, and also have a stake that is more than commercial, in the mental and physical soundness of their lines. They are breeding to produce pups for their own use, so what goes wrong with MY pup, has the potential to affect their own plans.

 

I do research, and look out for some of the basics. I have my own system of ensuring the physical soundness of the pups I choose that depends less on clinical testing and more on the type of work done and longevity of the lines. I stick with certain combinations of lines that tend to be solid temperamentally. Beyond that, I've deliberately taken pups with the potential for minor issues - every line has its quirks, trust me. There is no perfect dog, honest. The variability of the Border Collie gene pool means that things "pop up" with some unpredictably even in the soundest lines - but that variability and unpredictability is not something I'd trade in for a more uniform, concentrated gene pool with MORE problems that are practically unavoidable.

 

On the condition of a pup coming from the breeder. It's good to remember that a baby pup being rehomed is under probably the most stress it will ever undergo. Environment change, new family, new food, sometimes even a new climate.

 

Latent problems like normal worm and other parasite loads, can take advantage of the sudden depression of the immune system. If your breeder has a training kennel, or (of course) lots of breeding dogs, or takes in shelter dogs at any time, it's best to be alert and ready to minimize the stress your pup undergoes in the first couple of weeks, and become very good friends with your vet.

 

I'm speaking as someone who has LOTS of experience with this, having seen it in both rescues and pups I've bought. I've stopped crate training my pups the moment they first get here as I feel that's a major stressor. Just something I thought I'd throw in there before people start adding "pup got worms/coccidia/kennel cough within 24 days of arrival" to their list of bad breeder red flags. :rolleyes:

 

If that's all then see above - obviously you always want to have your pup checked by a vet no matter what breeder your pup came from. It's best to wait a day, or 48 hours, unless problems come up before then - then your pup won't associate "new folks" with the vet visit. Your vet will spot other problems typical of an unhealthy whelping environment, such as a long-untreated parasite load, fleas/ticks, mange, or (God forbid) flystrike. He or she can also get a baseline for CBC and do a blood chemistry panel to check organ function.

 

Jen, good luck to you. I also struggled - for five years - with a dog that was barely temperamentally able to do the sports she loved and desperately needed for her mental health and I finally had to retire after she went postal during a training session. Fortunately she was healthy except for IBS (different from IBD - relatively easy to solve with raw feeding but also triggered by stress), and I was able to place her working for the Air Force via a friend in the bird strike business. If I hadn't been able to do that I had very few options so I really understand your frustration on that level.

 

Trim was a rescue so there was no one to blame, really, for her issues. All I could do was go day to day and try to take the good with the bad. I'm just now, five years after the pain of giving her up, starting to remember the good stuff in an untarnished way and really be thankful I had those times with her. She gave me a gift of handling dogs like her, that I've passed on to many dogs since then, so I can't say her being born should never have happened. Not to mention how much the pilots on her base appreciate her work, but that is frosting.

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They get most of their business via a slick web site and a history of producing hotshot, pretty, sport dogs. But I don't know many people who would say they are a great place to get a nice family dog with stocckdog potential.

 

 

Okay. Posting again. :rolleyes: I think people have a bit of a "it can't happen to me attitude". I know that people who compete in agility will buy puppies out of dog proven to be successful in agility. People also buy puppies out of proven trial dogs because they want a trial winner in herding. I know that I made a hasty decision based on other things that were going on in my life at the time. Again my intent with re-opening this topic and with commenting about the topic orginally was to warn other people about the repercussions I faced by not researching this breeder in more detail. Yes people should carefully research and choose the breeders they buy from. However, not doing so does not abolve the breeder.

 

 

Trim was a rescue so there was no one to blame, really, for her issues. All I could do was go day to day and try to take the good with the bad. I'm just now, five years after the pain of giving her up, starting to remember the good stuff in an untarnished way and really be thankful I had those times with her. She gave me a gift of handling dogs like her, that I've passed on to many dogs since then, so I can't say her being born should never have happened. Not to mention how much the pilots on her base appreciate her work, but that is frosting.

 

 

Good points and I know a great deal about behavioral training that I didn't know before trying to overcome Fever's behavioral problems. I have become very effective through practice at applying some really great behavorial training techniques primarily from Control Unleashed while working with Fever. I have been able to apply those techniques to some of my foster dogs and now to this puppy I am trying out. Part of working with a temperamentally unsound dog is learning to read the signals. They are sometimes very subtle and happen very closely to the erruption of an "episode". Reading the signals and knowing how and when to reward/back off/progress is also something I have had to become very effective at doing. It is amazing how well these training techniques work with no correction or stress to the dog.

 

These are great skills and I am constantly singing the praises of Leslie McDevitt who wrote, "Control Unleashed" because of the results that some of her basic techniques can bring.

 

I am thankful that I have Fever and not someone else. With me she has a good life. She is protected from being put in a situation where she can bite a person or another dog and get herself and her owner in serious trouble. She receives a very good quality diet and whatever supplements or vitamins her veterinarian feels might support her and prevent relapses of her conditions. She has come a very long way as long as I don't put her in situations that trigger too much stress.

 

I did end up with a dog I love and cherish, but I love and cherish all of my dogs. I think this breeder should be held accountable for the problems she creates. I hope that people make better choices then I did and that it becomes easier and easier to become well informed about who to buy a puppy from. If this breeder were a more ethical, careful, responsible, quality, whatever you want to call it, breeder who wasn't continuing to breed the parents of my dog and other related dogs who have continued to produce issue laden puppies, then I wouldn't have posted in the first place. I wouldn't have demanded a refund that I wasn't going to get if this breeder had informed me of the potential risks and I had bought anyway. Maybe if this breeder was held accountable for the issues she creates, she would be more careful in the future. That too would make me very happy.

 

 

Thanks to the person who told me how to use the quote function. And to Melanie who actually knows me. :D

 

Jen

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I think this breeder should be held accountable for the problems she creates. I hope that people make better choices then I did and that it becomes easier and easier to become well informed about who to buy a puppy from. If this breeder were a more ethical, careful, responsible, quality, whatever you want to call it, breeder who wasn't continuing to breed the parents of my dog and other related dogs who have continued to produce issue laden puppies, then I wouldn't have posted in the first place. I wouldn't have demanded a refund that I wasn't going to get if this breeder had informed me of the potential risks and I had bought anyway. Maybe if this breeder was held accountable for the issues she creates, she would be more careful in the future.

 

Unfortunately, I think the only way to hold a breeder accountable in the way you speak of is for people to quit buying from those lines and that breeder. You've done your part to further that cause here, and hopefully you'll speak out at the venues you attend where people are more inclined to buy pups from such a breeder. I hope you told your agility instructor to please not recommend RS anymore as well.

 

As for your assertion that we have an "it can't happen to me" attitude, I think you are quite wrong. Most of what I've read here has been that we expect the breeder to do the best s/he can do WRT to researching the lines before making a cross and then we take our chances based on our own research and trust in the breeder. Sure we buy out of proven lines, but for most of us, proven means that they have no serious health issues that would prevent them from being proven in the work. We recognize that it *can* happen to us, but if we've done our homework on the breeder, and the breeder has done his/her homework on the cross, then most of us here simply won't blame the breeder for an accident of genetics (the old "sh!t happens" thing). That's not the same as dealing with a breeder who repeats breedings even after problems have been shown or who refuses to help (at least offer advice and a listening ear) to a puppy buyer who has a pup with a problem, which is the distinction several of us have been trying to make.

 

J.

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I guess I can't believe all the people "faulting" Jen in this case. Seems to me the fear level is rising and truthfully, no one can say what they would or wouldn't do until it happens to them. For all of you that have bred a litter, congrats on it being perfect and based on some of the responses from others well, buyer beware.

 

Everyone says "research" and ask questions, OK, ask who? When I bought my first dog I did ask, no one stepped up and said anything. After the dog was dead, then people commented about the breeder. It's not nice to talk bad about people/breeders especially to "strangers" was the feeling I got.

 

Pups these days are all over the country, does a buyer need to ask for references, call people, ask for videos? What? Contracts I suppose aren't worth a crap. Will you as a owner talk to a stranger about your dog, where it came from, good bad, and in-between? How will you feel when a potential buyer ask you all sorts of questions that to a point may be questioning your ability, knowledge and breeding practice?

 

The breeder of Jens pup is still breeding the dam knowing faults with many of the pups already. I have friends that have littermates (reputable breeder), 4 of the 6 in the litter had OCD, breeder gave back purchase price on all the pups that went through surgery. OCD can be repaired, Epilepsy can't.

 

It appears as if you are focusing on an individual breeder where as I am considering how supporting the views of the poster could effect many other breeders. You know there are people that would demand payment for their dog from a breeder, not give it up and turn around and later breed that same dog. It runs both ways.

 

Yes Debbie, I am focusing on one breeder, the breeder of topic in this thread. To insinuate that this pup will be kept and bred is simply nasty, especially after Jen said the bitch was spayed. I gather you have had experience with this sort of person? If it "runs both ways" then why do you feel there is no breeder responsibility, in this case?

 

If this was your pup, returned to you (intact) and all the issues were valid what would you do? Would you PTS the pup? If so then what is the difference in the buyer keeping the pup and getting purchase price refund? Or would you turn around and sell it again? Are vet records not enough to validate the problems?

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Jen, where is your new pup from?

 

I'm not going to involve the breeder of this puppy in this conversation. Sorry, it has nothing to do with them. If they are on the boards and want to comment then great, but I am not dragging them into the muck.

 

I was using this puppy as a point because she has typical behavior issues caused by just being a lot of puppy who might have been too much for her owners or who was over stimulated too early in specific environments verses being temperamentally unsound. Also because of all of the interaction, information and contact I have received from her breeder in direct contrast to the accusation and complete avoidance of acknowledging the issue that I have received from Fever's breeder.

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There are times when participating in a string could be a "no-win" situation, and I am glad that I decided not to offer an opinion on this topic, particularly since I know absolutely nothing about breeders or breeding (except for what I have read on this board). But I would like to answer one question with a constructive suggestion:

Everyone says "research" and ask questions, OK, ask who?

One valuable resource can be a vet, if one has a long history with him/her. In Annie's case, 5 years ago the vet (based on her experience with the specific local breeder's dogs, and the robustness of their health as well as their reputation) recommended the breeder to us; she also took care of supplying much of the family history and environment to the breeder, thus simplifying the adoption process.

 

(Sidebar: The same vet also located Missy for us from a shelter 15 years ago, checked the dog out personally, and facilitated the adoption.)

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I know the pup that Jen just got. That litter has resource guarding issues and “Jane” (not real name of pup) is very dog aggressive and had boundaries issues. I have seen the Jane since she was a pup. The people who had her “Adam and Eve” worked very hard at trying to resolve the issues. They went to training, dog behaviorist, the works and I know for a fact, they really worked at it. They have a 2 yr old Border Collie from the same-ish type of breeding and she has no issues. They have been coming to me for herding for over a year.

 

Jane would lunge at dogs at dog sport events, the same as your Fever did. The other pups are resource guarding. So why did you get a pup with the lunging at people during a dog sport events as your Fever?

 

In addition, the breeder was aware of the issues and that Adam and Eve were trying to work it out. They asked for a refund since the pup was five months old, had issues as well as the other pups, had the pups professional evaluated and spent lots of time themselves working with the pup.

 

No refund was offered even though they asked. They had to pay for shipping Jane to Jen. That kennel is agility breeding which also seems to promote colored dogs (red and merles).

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One valuable resource can be a vet, if one has a long history with him/her. In Annie's case, 5 years ago the vet (based on her experience with the specific local breeder's dogs, and the robustness of their health as well as their reputation) recommended the breeder to us; she also took care of supplying much of the family history and environment to the breeder, thus simplifying the adoption process.

 

Sorry BJ, in these cases a local vet is not going to be able to tell me about a pup in another state or the other coast or another country for that matter. My question was somewhat rhetorical in that you have to talk to complete strangers or know someone in the working dog world (as well as the sport world) in order to ask.

 

Jen, from the frying pan to the fire? Why not just start looking at young herding dogs that owners want to place due to overcrowding, not enough dog, etc....staying with the ACK breeders will bring you more of the same grief you've already gone through as well as possibly another dog that cannot stand up to what you want.

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Interesting thread (though hard to keep up with!). It is making me think about things from many different viewpoints with regard to buyer's vs seller's responsibility to & expectations of each other, and so on.

 

Jen, I have a question about your new or forthcoming dog. I believe you said she is five months old, unless I misunderstood your post. I consider five months to be a puppy, don't you? We all know that a five month old dog (or puppy) is neither mentally nor physically mature. Five months, in my opinion, seems almost as great a gamble of future "potential" as two months. And, if Diane's info is correct, you've once again got a dog who at least needs some behavior modification and possibly behavior rehabilitation, and also relatives who also exhibit questionable behavioral (or temperament) issues.

 

This post is totally NOT about whether your info on the new dog is correct or whether Diane's info is correct, or whatever. I don't know the situation and I'm not taking sides on it. I'm basically trying to say that dogs are always a gamble. You do the best research you CAN (Karen's point was a good one--who do you ask? How do you connect with the right people? How do do get them to talk openly to a stranger?). When you've made your decision, you sort of cross your fingers and hope!

 

ETA: General "you," not specifically you, Jen, in my last couple of sentences.

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Sorry BJ, in these cases a local vet is not going to be able to tell me about a pup in another state or the other coast or another country for that matter. My question was somewhat rhetorical in that you have to talk to complete strangers or know someone in the working dog world (as well as the sport world) in order to ask.

This is a case where someone trying to "break in" to a particular venue might do well to have a knowledgeable mentor. You're right that you're going to talk to complete strangers or know someone. However, if you're serious about doing it right, I think it wouldn't hurt to wait a bit, get to know people (who then are no longer perfect strangers), and then ask questions. I can't speak for agility, but I imagine it would work the same. Will you be able to find out *everything* about *everyone*? Probably not, but even the questions that go unanswered (because folks don't like to badmouth other folks) can be viewed as answers of a sort. And if you spend some time watching the dogs in your chosen venue, you might see things you like or don't like about them (temperament) and hear what health problems might exist. It's fair to say that not everyone will be up front about issues in their lines, but I think most people do breed (working dogs) in good faith and IME usually you will hear about the big issues if you ask enough questions. Buying a pup with potential for the use you have in mind is certainly one case where delayed gratification might save you a lot of heartache.

 

J.

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If this was your pup, returned to you (intact) and all the issues were valid what would you do? Would you PTS the pup? If so then what is the difference in the buyer keeping the pup and getting purchase price refund? Or would you turn around and sell it again? Are vet records not enough to validate the problems?

 

What would I do, first and foremost I would hope to never end up in the situation so I can only speculate which will probably put me into alot of hot water :rolleyes: Disclaimer time, this is totally hypathetical based on how I understand the events and how it would relate to the way I handle my dogs. I am not responsible for others misunderstanding me, inserting their own assumption, not agreeing or flat out not willing to accept that we all approach things and view things from a little different angle....

 

First off it depends on what issues we are talking about and when, to get things on the same page, I'm going to base on what I understand to be the original trigger of return when the dog was intact, behavior issues, at that time the other issues had not revealed themselves so would not be factored in. I need to consider what the buyer is requesting, if the buyer right off the bat wants a refund and keep the dog, no I need the dog back to give you a refund, if that was in my contract, it's not part of our normal agreement but I would not have a problem taking a dog back due to behaivor problems, leaning more toward a refund then a replacement with the thinking that the buyer does not suit my dogs. Our agreement is based on working ability. At that point if the buyer ceases communication there's not much to do. If the buyer returns the dog and upon recieving the dog back, I would have to see if the issues were the dog or the handler, I have dealt with dogs that were deemed as having "Behaivor Issues" where the owner was told that the dog should be PTS that were victims of their environment, these were not of our breeding, just good old dogs that had developed bad habits and misunderstood, yep and had professional credentials assessing their "issues". So no, vet records are not enough to evaluate a behavior problem.

 

If it was deemed that it was the dog I would have to then decide how I would manage that dog for the rest of it's life, depending on if the dog is a danger to other dogs, people or itself. I may have to have it PTS if it is a danger to people, typically I can manage it's interactions with other dogs or itself, if not it certainly should not have been left with the buyer out in society. Trust me it would not be an easy decision, but if I made that decision it would be one with the understanding the no one should assume the risk of having the dog, if the dog is just tricky to deal with I would probably make concessions for it and give it a place to live it's life under my care.

 

Would we make that mating again, I don't think so, but I would also have to consider what the other pups turned into, since we breed for working ability and typically keep more then one in any given litter, one problematic dog may or maynot influence me to select a different female for the male, or a different male for the female, I can't say for certain how it would affect future breedings, though I would think by the time the dog was 2 I would have a pretty good feel as to whether or not the cross worked, we may have already ceased and desisted on that particular cross and worked toward isolating out the problem or just determined that it was not worth it and we would be better served to regroup.

 

Would I breed it or sell it, if the temperment is a liability no way, if the behaivor issue was handler related, the dog had talent and was trainable then the dog is on the same ground as our other dogs, if the right person came along that understood how to handle it, it may go home with them, with the understanding that the dog comes back here if there are any problems, would I charge a bunch for it, probably not, only as much as I am willing to refund unless I really felt confident that the dog was issue free, then I may give a 30 or 60 day cash return guaranty to make sure the team worked, after 60 days, the buyer would fall into being given a replacement. I already have that policy, even with dogs that I have not raised and just took in that proved to be capable of being rehabbed, the person getting them is told what the problem was, what they need to look out for and that I would rather keep the dog here then to have them take it and go wrong by it.

 

If the dog was mentally unstable, nope it would not be bred, the dog would not have the mental capacity to be in the breeding program, it would not leave here on it's own accord. It's a different can of worms, we are not breeding to pump out pups for people to buy, we are breeding for ourselves, do I keep everyone of them, no, but I would if I could. Pups that we have sold were of no lesser quality then those that we have kept, with working dogs you can't tell who is going to be the star and who is going to flame out at the age of 8-10 weeks. You might get an inkling to who is going to be a shit and maybe be careful to be sure as to who decides that they want to take on that little turd or maybe just not let it go anywhere to be develped myself. I have a turd, her name is Weasel, everyone wanted her, she's turning into a nice little working dog, a testiment to her name and not one for just anyone.

 

Now, let's run the same situation a year later, the owner has refused to exercise her right to return the dog at the age of 22 month, the dog is three years old and now I get a letter after a big whoopla on the internet questioning my breeding practices and ethics wanting her money back stating that it is believed that the new issues are due to poor breeding and she still wants to keep the dog. She already accepted the behaivor issues when she elected to stop communication when I offered to take the dog back at the age of 22 months and in reality any complications from the Gardia. Am I obligated to refund the money for the dog now and leave it in it's home, why would it change from when I originally offered to take the dog back, or since she decided to not exercise her option the year earlier am I off the hook? Or do I consult with my attorney, and go by what he tells me.... Did the dog have a seizure related to a genetic problem that I should have been privey to or did something else cause it? Can the vet records tell me that, I don't think so but without reviewing them how can I know. I know they can tell me it's possible, but we all already know that and take the risk of that defect along with others when we purchase a border collie. When the whole deal about this breeder got vented on the internet it put a different light and spin on things, it would put me into hazard control mode, especially when letters requesting refunds from buyers that have already decline to exercise their option turn up after the thread began. There gets to be a time where you may have to say "Refer to your contract".

 

Now, if we want to assume just for the sake of discussion that the health issues were identified at the time of the first request and the dog was unaltered, we need to consider whether or not the buyer was open to two way communication I would probably be willing to discuss options to help reduce her loss, it may be conditional to being altered, might even assist with the payment of it, but if upon that first offer to take the dog back communications were severed by the buyer I would have to let it be. I can't really elaborate anymore, based on the information supplied, it sounded like to me that the buyer didn't like the return option and walked away from the table.

 

I'm sure this will generate all kinds of hate mail and flaming. But, I'm not going to lie to you or sugar coat it.

 

Deb

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