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I think the individual lines they have produce very nice dogs. However, judging from the results in terms of behavior problems, I am guessing that there is something about crossing these lines in the way they seem to like crossing them that is not so positive.

 

Solo's pedigree is heavy on the Northern Ireland dogs (he is a Nathan Mooney's Max grandson, and he goes back to Brady's Jim three times), and also contains an infusion of Wisp (but what pedigree doesn't) plus Wilson's Peg, Spot's dam and a bunch of other pretty nice stuff (plus a little bit of random stuff), but those are the pertinent relationships he has to the Rising Sun dogs. There are plenty of perfectly sound, excellent working dogs going back to such lines but I have to wonder if mixing them up together in this way is what makes for such problems. Anxiety issues seem very common: fear aggression, noise sensitivity, general inability to deal with pressure, etc. When I saw the pedigree on the dog that Jen and I both know I was shocked by how similar it was to Solo's. (To be clear: Solo was not bred by Rising Sun. He was bred by some random farm breeder producing pup$ for buck$ who happened to get his hands on some nicely bred dogs.)

 

This idea is not original to me by the way, but I'll let the originator identify herself if she likes and expand further; she knows a lot more about pedigrees than I do. I adore Solo. He is My Dog. Solo is the dog of a lifetime, and there are aspects of his personality I will be looking for in another dog for the rest of my life. He is serious, and intuitive, and complicated, and ridiculously intelligent. He is absolutely loyal. He has soul. Solo's personality is perfect. It's his temperament that's the problem. I wish I knew which lines the personality part comes from, so that I could look for a dog from those lines while avoiding whichever ones it was that introduced the temperament issues.

 

Sometimes I wonder if the richly layered composition that is Solo would be possible without his quirks. Is it possible to be as intelligent -- as a dog or as a human -- without also being kind of crazy? Who knows. That's why I refer to him as the Canine John Nash: Solo is brilliant, handsome, charismatic, and nuts.

 

That said, even if the entire package that is Solo cannot be disassembled into component parts, I would still never recommend a similar dog to someone else. I mean, I saw A Beautiful Mind too. It had a happy ending and all, but my guess is that if his wife had known what she was in for, she might not have signed on in the first place.

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Let's turn this to a general sort of discussion.

 

The way Border Collies are bred, leads to many different very useful personality types and various abilities to take pressure, give to pressure, sensitivities, reactivity, etc.

 

We have lots of wonderful lines with abilities to suit any - literally any - livestock operation out there.

 

That's the gift that our predecessors gave us, breeding to a single working standard but with many, many uses in mind.

 

Now, some of these lines mingle well to produce dogs that are not only useful and higher achievers than the previous generation, but also balanced, trainable, wash-and-wear personalities too.

 

Other lines fit together not so well. NOT because they create scary, dysfunctional dogs. But because the dogs that result are not useful. That's the first standard. And it's a standard that works to weed out those scary, dysfunctional dogs, too (usually).

 

And then there are wonderful lines that mesh well with any type of personality and will "upgrade" the potential for edgey temperaments. By "temperament" here I'm always referring to characteristics that are suitable for work. Not occaisional trialing and sitting in the kennel between times, but both top level competition AND large-scale farm work.

 

Training begins the process of uncovering the weaknesses in a line. Nervy dogs are hard to start. Dogs that aren't team players act "soft" or "hard" in the beginning stages of training. A dog that's approaching the wrong side of reactive is going to be a worrier - overthinking everything.

 

Later, work and competition will uncover issues with being around other dogs, and people. These aren't deal breakers, but a very open-minded trainer will think hard about how these issues are also reflected in training weaknesses, and use them to "breed up" next time around, assuming the dog in question is a real prodigy (this is my view, anyway).

 

I'm not a top trainer, nor a breeder, but have given this a lot of thought from the standpoint of someone who's worked with a lot of dogs with borderline personalities that self-destructed outside the working environment. It's been really instructive to work in the other direction and turn undesirable characteristics into useful ones, on stock (while shutting down the off-stock version).

 

To go back to breeding - only someone who's taken their dogs to the top level of training can see where the SMALL weaknesses are, that become amplified if crossed to the wrong lines. If one is thinking in terms of the balance that creates useful dogs, it will be less likely to produce doubled-up characteristics like a hasty temper, over-thoughtfulness, over-sensitivity, hyper-reactivity, etc.

 

When I first got into this, I had no idea what a pedigree might imply. Then I progressed to saying to myself, "I'll NEVER own a dog with X in the pedigree" (meaning some key dog). Then, it was, "I'll NEVER own a dog with both X and Y."

 

Now, I see why sometimes it might be useful to attempt to cross X and Y, and see that further additions of W and Z are often done for working characteristics, but it just so happens that this also produces a return to balance in the everyday temperamental sense.

 

Most importantly, I look at why the parents of the litter were put together - no matter what's behind it, how these two shape up in a working sense is most important. Then, why were their parents put together, in a working sense? Is there any chance of doubling up problems from the grandparents' generation - was that considered when doing the cross?

 

Behind that, my main concern is prepotent ancestors and line breedings. I'm not worried about X and Y being four generations back, even if it's a cross that produced killers at the time.

 

Since Melanie has put forward Solo as a specific example, I'll compare one of my own dogs to him. Ted's also got some of the same lines as Solo. Ted's not the most easy going dog in the world and I'd be careful putting one more "hot" line to him. But he's humble, a team player, isn't edgy about being handled - in a lot of ways he's an anti-Solo.

 

But he is amazingly similar to Solo too. He's a somewhat plain worker, task oriented, greatly desires to figure out what the job is and do it, rather than participate in aimless drilling. He's good at taking charge - that's the piece that becomes "take charge and decide to do something about a situation that makes me uncomfortable."

 

Ted's also got some of the most sensible, easy-going lines available to modern breeders, too. Henderson's Sweep, Tim Flood's #Pip - the more I see of both lines, the more I love these, along with some others I've fallen in love with much earlier.

 

It's what makes this breed so interesting - some of Solo's least endearing characteristics are also some that it is necessary to carry on in the breed, in less extreme form.

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I have had experiences with Rising Sun. I got a PN level bitch about 6 yrs ago. She was here and we just didn't click. Becki had no issue in paying for her flight back and refunding my money. She backed her dog to suit me and wanted me to be happy as well as the dog.

 

I have kept in touch with her over the years. Other people that I have know who have had dealing with her are very happy with their dogs. She has sent some nice dogs to Susan Rhoades that are running in Open. She has a working, health and a return policy that I am happy with. In fact, I will be getting a pup from her.

 

Diane

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I have had experiences with Rising Sun. I got a PN level bitch about 6 yrs ago. She was here and we just didn't click. Becki had no issue in paying for her flight back and refunding my money. She backed her dog to suit me and wanted me to be happy as well as the dog.

 

I have kept in touch with her over the years. Other people that I have know who have had dealing with her are very happy with their dogs. She has sent some nice dogs to Susan Rhoades that are running in Open. She has a working, health and a return policy that I am happy with. In fact, I will be getting a pup from her.

 

Diane

 

 

Hi Diane,

 

Of course you can imagine how envious I am that that woman got nine pups from Owen's Roy! Don't know her, don't know her dogs, but do know , as you do Diane , Roy.

 

I don't know the bottom side of this litter, but I can't imagine these pups being sold for anything other than stock work.

 

Carolyn

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It's what makes this breed so interesting - some of Solo's least endearing characteristics are also some that it is necessary to carry on in the breed, in less extreme form.

 

There is nothing that is not endearing about Solo.

 

I don't know the bottom side of this litter, but I can't imagine these pups being sold for anything other than stock work.

 

I can. Some people care very much what their dogs look like on paper without ever working them or really giving a crap about their working ability.

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There is nothing that is not endearing about Solo.

 

"Least endearing", not, "non-endearing." :rolleyes:

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I like the way you put that together Becca. It makes sense.

 

There is an aussie breeder in Ky that I really hate his dogs. They all are the same build and are from the same area. The females are territorial they are reactive they tend to be nippy esp with me. The people who have adopted them as single dog homes love them but, I cant imagine why.

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I have had experiences with Rising Sun. I got a PN level bitch about 6 yrs ago. She was here and we just didn't click. Becki had no issue in paying for her flight back and refunding my money. She backed her dog to suit me and wanted me to be happy as well as the dog.

 

I have kept in touch with her over the years. Other people that I have know who have had dealing with her are very happy with their dogs. She has sent some nice dogs to Susan Rhoades that are running in Open. She has a working, health and a return policy that I am happy with. In fact, I will be getting a pup from her.

 

Diane

 

I was just at the Keepstone trial, and I believe Diane is referring to Bill, the only dog running in Open (he wasn't entered that weekend).

With enough money, it is possible to purchase nice started imported dogs with recognizable pedigrees. My question to these breeders who have large kennels full of dogs, such as RS and LockEye is--how many of these dogs are doing real work or are competing in USBCHA? Out of 36 dogs, how many?? And more importantly, what dogs has the breeder bred out of her own lines that can work at that level? I like to see kennels where the bitches are being worked and trialed, and are not just brood bitches/whelping machines. It's great to have a fancy stud dog, but the mother has to prove her mettle too. It seems puppies are being sold on the basis of who the parents are related to, rather than the quality of the parents (as defined by their work).

JMO

Leslie

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I was just at the Keepstone trial, and I believe Diane is referring to Bill, the only dog running in Open (he wasn't entered that weekend).

With enough money, it is possible to purchase nice started imported dogs with recognizable pedigrees. My question to these breeders who have large kennels full of dogs, such as RS and LockEye is--how many of these dogs are doing real work or are competing in USBCHA? Out of 36 dogs, how many?? And more importantly, what dogs has the breeder bred out of her own lines that can work at that level? I like to see kennels where the bitches are being worked and trialed, and are not just brood bitches/whelping machines. It's great to have a fancy stud dog, but the mother has to prove her mettle too. It seems puppies are being sold on the basis of who the parents are related to, rather than the quality of the parents (as defined by their work).

JMO

Leslie

 

 

We have a rescued LE dog and she was viewed working by Walt J. and he was impressed with her. If my husband and I hadnt been subject to layoffs. She would be out at least small time. I understand her daughter who is LE and Astra lines is out and trains with Cheryl. Moms Penny is a great stable dog.

 

I think you need your head examined to pay their prices at LE and be on a waiting list for dogs esp with some of the negatives in their lines such as seizures and deafness.

 

Yes the common person is lured by the websites and the shiny pedigree's but, if they aren't here to read this board already we are preaching to the choir.

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I tend to agree with Leslie. And running in open in and of itself isn't necessarily meaningful, although it's certainly more meaningful than running only in lower classes. If I am looking at a *trial* dog, I'd like to see consistent performances across a wide variety of trials--not just on the home farm or just locally. I agree with Leslie that anyone can import good dogs--it's what you do with them and their offspring *afterward* that says something about your breeding program. The upcoming pups from the recently imported dogs probably would be quite nice, but there are enough other red flags (numbers of dogs, emphasis on color, multiple breeds, etc.) with that breeder's operation that I would probably look elsewhere, especially since there are plenty of breeders in Idaho who are breeding nice working dogs without those red flags. I think there are plenty of breeders who offer guarantees, will take their dogs back, etc., who don't necessarily meet my personal standards. If such a breeder imported a really good bitch in whelp, I'd be tempted by the puppies, but part of me would wonder if I were then ultimately contributing to breeding practices I don't like by paying money for a well-bred imported pup. (For example, there's a breeder I consider something of a better-than-average mill but who doesn't do much in the way of proving their dogs, but recently there was a really nice cross made there. I was tempted, but had I bought a pup I would have been--in my mind--showing tacit agreement with the breeder's practices in general, and I figured I could easily find a well-bred pup from a breeder whose practices were more in sync with my beliefs about breeding, so I chose not to buy a pup. We all make such choices every day--it just depends on what a person can live with with respect to what their choices say about them. So, had I bought a pup from this breeder, I would have been behaving in a hypocritical manner. Not the end of the world, to be sure, but not how I want to see myself either.)

 

J.

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I tend to agree with Leslie. And running in open in and of itself isn't necessarily meaningful, although it's certainly more meaningful than running only in lower classes. If I am looking at a *trial* dog, I'd like to see consistent performances across a wide variety of trials--not just on the home farm or just locally. I agree with Leslie that anyone can import good dogs--it's what you do with them and their offspring *afterward* that says something about your breeding program. The upcoming pups from the recently imported dogs probably would be quite nice, but there are enough other red flags (numbers of dogs, emphasis on color, multiple breeds, etc.) with that breeder's operation that I would probably look elsewhere, especially since there are plenty of breeders in Idaho who are breeding nice working dogs without those red flags.

 

J.

On PAPER they look great. But there isn't any information on how the parents work. Or why they were bred together, other than to have Big Names in both pedigrees. If you want to buy a working dog, you should know how the parents work. If you're going to breed working dogs, it goes without saying!!

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On PAPER they look great. But there isn't any information on how the parents work. Or why they were bred together, other than to have Big Names in both pedigrees. If you want to buy a working dog, you should know how the parents work. If you're going to breed working dogs, it goes without saying!!

 

Oops hit send too soon. Of course we know how Roy works! :-)

I meant the mothers.

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Hi Diane,

 

Of course you can imagine how envious I am that that woman got nine pups from Owen's Roy! Don't know her, don't know her dogs, but do know , as you do Diane , Roy.

 

I don't know the bottom side of this litter, but I can't imagine these pups being sold for anything other than stock work.

 

Carolyn

 

Aled and I are seeing a sharp rise in 'commercial' (overseas) enquiries requesting Roy`s progeny; it is a plain-fact (and also a great-shame) that certain breeders see only the 'big-money' opportunities in the success and reputation of other`s dogs, without looking to breed-in 'real' improvements and advancements in working-abilities and temperament of bloodlines in these countries.

 

Finding a 'reputable' breeder whom strives (primarily) to breed litters that are; healthy, balanced/well-tempered and 'able' is getting very difficult.

Breeding good, working lines is much-more complicated than a breeder simply liking the breed, having a colour preference and seeing big-money in having the Sire`s success` in the pedigree.

 

Deb.

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...Finding a 'reputable' breeder whom strives (primarily) to breed litters that are; healthy, balanced/well-tempered and 'able' is getting very difficult...

Actually, based on my experience this fall as someone looking for a good, working bred pup but with ZERO contacts in the Border Collie world, I'd say it isn't very hard.

 

Using the Internet, I found the USBCC article on warning flags, which helped clear up why I was uneasy with many of the web sites offering puppies. I then emailed several people who didn't show any litters available, explained I was looking for a pet & that I had owned a Border Collie before, and asked for advice. I also emailed ABCA to ask if anyone could help me find a good breeder. A lady from ABCA gave me several names of people with ABCA who didn't breed, but who could probably steer me in the right direction. Before I could ask them, Patrick Shanahan gave me the name of a lady in Oregon. Along with everyone else I contacted, she was very nice & understanding & easy to work with.

 

All it takes is the desire to get a good puppy, and finding this website. And be willing to wait for 3-5 months for a puppy, vs 'Need to bring one home tonight'. The only people who should have any problems are the ones who don't care enough to ask for help.

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Aled and I are seeing a sharp rise in 'commercial' (overseas) enquiries requesting Roy`s progeny; it is a plain-fact (and also a great-shame) that certain breeders see only the 'big-money' opportunities in the success and reputation of other`s dogs, without looking to breed-in 'real' improvements and advancements in working-abilities and temperament of bloodlines in these countries.

 

Finding a 'reputable' breeder whom strives (primarily) to breed litters that are; healthy, balanced/well-tempered and 'able' is getting very difficult.

Breeding good, working lines is much-more complicated than a breeder simply liking the breed, having a colour preference and seeing big-money in having the Sire`s success` in the pedigree.

 

Deb.

 

Qualifier: I'm so green I'm actually chartreuse when it comes to knowing anything about what it takes to train a working border collie, so these comments may be considered, ahem, obvious. But, anyway, here goes.

 

After watching the link you posted earlier of Aled and Roy's winning run, it is just poetry to me how a great dog matched with a great handler/trainer can perform. It actually doesn't surprise me that many think they can just piggyback on all that effort, time, conscientious breeding (with a certain amount of genetic good-luck) and wind up with a dog as good as Roy, without accepting the responsibility (or even acknowledging this) to consistently improve the working abilities within the line through handling.

 

There has been much talk before of matching up the dog with the handler, and I think it becomes so apparent when you watch this kind of incredible result. I think many of us who haven't worked in this way with our dogs have underestimated the effort required by the handler -- after all, he/she just stands there and whistles :rolleyes: -- the dog is doing all the 'work'. But the reading that's required of both dog and sheep is phenomenal, really. The natural ability of the dog is obvious, I think, but the ability of the handler to pull the dog off at any given instant, to redirect, to slow down, to stop -- the real connection and trust is incredible. That anyone could think the same kind of magic could be achieved simply by passing along some genes is missing the whole point of the working border collie; in my mind, that's the partnership.

 

And isn't that what having a good dog is all about anyway?

Ailsa

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name='DeltaBluez Tess' date='Feb 11 2009, 03:31 AM' post='282968']

I I have kept in touch with her over the years. Other people that I have know who have had dealing with her are very happy with their dogs. She has sent some nice dogs to Susan Rhoades that are running in Open. She has a working, health and a return policy that I am happy with. In fact, I will be getting a pup from her.

 

Diane

 

 

Hi. Look, I am happy that you personally have had a good experience with RS. Truly I am although I am sorry you still believe that it is a good place to purchase a puppy. I am also happy for the people who have dogs from RS that are lucky enough not to have issues with their dogs. The facts are, however, that RS sells very few of the vast number of puppies produced each year to working homes where they will be used on stock in a field somewhere and not immersed in the world at large.

 

http://www.risingsunfarm.com/news.html

 

As can be seen by the news link, RS promotes and sells these dogs to people like me who live in suburbia, dabble in herding when we can get sheep time, if at all and have gotten to know and love deeply the breed due to our participation in competitive dog sports.

 

The facts are that dogs from the foundation lines she has typically used can be dog and people aggressive, fearful, reactive and plain unstable. In the quest to understand what was going on with my own dog and figure out how to help her, I have spoken to quite a number of owners of dogs from these lines that have serious behavioral issues with their dogs. I had several less then satisfactory discussions with RS regarding my issues with my dog. I no longer have any contact. I now do my best to warn people of the lack of attention put on temperament and behavior as well as some of the prevalent health issues. I simply do not wish the problems, angst and effort I have had to go through to help my dog on anyone.

 

More importantly and I think what is being overlooked here I don't want any unsuspecting puppy to grow up facing the issues, fears, anxiety, stress and physical problems many dogs from these lines have faced.

 

My little girl is wickedly intelligent, playful, affectionate and full of personality. I adore her. We have an extremely close bond probably due to the huge amount of time I have had to invest in her. I wouldn't trade her for the sanest dog on the planet nor the most competitive in my chosen dog sport. In a roundabout way I guess you could say I am thankful that I have her. However, I would not wish her on anyone and I never want another dog like her with her issues again. I am also very angry for her that this sweet and willing little dog had to face all that she has had to face. I know quite a few people who would say the same of their RS dogs. Life lesson acknowledged and learned.

 

There is no thought process put into the soundness of temperament in the RS breedings or any thought put in to how a puppy will fit into the home it is being sold too. There is no way these dogs can possibly be being bred for working ability as they start their breeding careers at 2 with no proven ability on stock. The Mowtion line has produced temperament issues mixed with a multitude of other lines and has done so for generations. I don't find that responsible, I'm sorry.

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As Julie points out, who you buy from says a lot about you. Since there are breeders who produce quality working dogs from proven (trialing open level or equivelant ranch work) without contributing to color fads, over breeding, ill health, etc...why would you do anything else?

 

If I was going to take a "risk" on a litter (for example perhaps buy from a young dam running nursery, or a dog with a mediocre trial career but signficant skills I liked plus a quality pedigree, or a one time cross of 2 good older working dogs from a sporadic farmer breeding etc) I would still prefer that over the kinds of crosses available from the kennels discussed. I would go so far as to say the sort of "risk" I find ok is often at the heart of the breed. Mass producing kennels were rare in development in this breed, but a shepherd(ess) with an eye for what they needed in the next generation was not.

 

Breeding like RS, LE...I call it "Mr Potato Head Breeding". They sometimes have and produce good dogs, they certainly spend cash to try to bring them in, and some of them are proven a various levels of work. However they put them together with mates like a child making a Potato Head toy. They have no real feel for the breed and what it does beyond the superficial. So what if Mr P's ear ends up in the nose slot, and his mouth is in the eye slot. It's still a "quality pedigree" right? Both are still Mr Potato Heads.....

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Aled and I are seeing a sharp rise in 'commercial' (overseas) enquiries requesting Roy`s progeny; it is a plain-fact (and also a great-shame) that certain breeders see only the 'big-money' opportunities in the success and reputation of other`s dogs, without looking to breed-in 'real' improvements and advancements in working-abilities and temperament of bloodlines in these countries.

 

Finding a 'reputable' breeder whom strives (primarily) to breed litters that are; healthy, balanced/well-tempered and 'able' is getting very difficult.

Breeding good, working lines is much-more complicated than a breeder simply liking the breed, having a colour preference and seeing big-money in having the Sire`s success` in the pedigree.

 

Deb.

I'd have to agree with you here. Many people are eager to have big-name breeder/trainer/trialists and big-name dogs in the pedigrees but not necessarily for the right reasons or as part of sound breeding decisions.

 

The really good breeders don't "trumpet" pedigrees, ancestors, etc., but prove the worth of their dogs in good stockwork on the farm and trial field, and match compatible dogs (and pedigrees) carefully before breeding.

 

It is a shame that great success and quality, like Aled has worked hard for, becomes someone's advertising trump card. Some folks seem to want the end result but don't put in the hard work it takes to get there. JMO.

 

edited to add - My comments here are not at all in reference to any kennel discussed in this thread. I was thinking primarily of people who want the "big names" for advertising purposes, no matter how far back in the pedigree they may be, and really use name-dropping as a substitute for proving their dogs and making sound breeding decisions. As noted in a concurrent thread about the 3.25 or 6.6% factors, too many people breed and promote their breeding based on noted dogs/bitches that are distant in their dogs' pedigrees.

 

My apologies if anyone felt I was referring to any kennel mentioned in this thread. I was thinking in particular of several other kennels whose breeding programs are not sound or responsible but who are eager to have the ability to use a "big name" in their self-promotion. I have no personal or first-hand knowledge regarding any kennels mentioned in this thread.

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It is a shame that great success and quality, like Aled has worked hard for, becomes someone's advertising trump card. Some folks seem to want the end result but don't put in the hard work it takes to get there. JMO.

 

 

I agree with this, but I think some responsibility lies with the owner of a dog of the caliber of Owen's Roy- doesn't it? It is hard to steal some one's thunder if you don't make it available to the highest dollar. (Not meant as an individual attack on Mr. Owen- meant as a general observation.)

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Breeding like RS, LE...I call it "Mr Potato Head Breeding". They sometimes have and produce good dogs, they certainly spend cash to try to bring them in, and some of them are proven a various levels of work. However they put them together with mates like a child making a Potato Head toy. They have no real feel for the breed and what it does beyond the superficial. So what if Mr P's ear ends up in the nose slot, and his mouth is in the eye slot. It's still a "quality pedigree" right? Both are still Mr Potato Heads.....

 

 

 

I love this analogy!!! I am going to remember this as it does describe both of these breeders, RS and LE, to a T.

 

Kathy

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I brought over two Roy pups that I got from Aled. One is now owned by another member of the board. I still have my Sava. She is a very nice bitch and I love her method of work. When I went over to the UK, I had friends look for a very high caliber pups that I could bring back. I am not disappointed. The dam of the pups is Aled's lines. I like to bring in good lines into my kennels as I don't want to be kennel blind. (Since I think Tess is the most perfect working dog, ever....just ask the husband!!)

 

What is the question/issues on LE? All I know of them is that the ones that I have seen are very hard/heavy grippers.

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I agree with this, but I think some responsibility lies with the owner of a dog of the caliber of Owen's Roy- doesn't it? It is hard to steal some one's thunder if you don't make it available to the highest dollar. (Not meant as an individual attack on Mr. Owen- meant as a general observation.)

I agree with you. It is amazing, though, how many people boast of top dogs just a generation or two removed from their "stud dogs" or "breeding bitches". Once a dog is out of so-and-so's hands, or has been used for stud on someone else's bitch, that person no longer has much influence if any on what happens.

 

I am familiar with a few cases of people who have been very disappointed by how people have exploited dogs that the breeder sold in good faith. I think there are many people who wouldn't think to deal poorly with someone else and therefore don't anticipate someone else dealing poorly with them.

 

Of course, what one person might consider as a breeder they wouldn't deal with, or a person they wouldn't sell to, may be someone else's consideration of an ideal breeder or purchaser. We can see this in this thread, with people both in favor of and not in favor of a particular kennel's breeding program.

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